Uechi Ryu History
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Kong Jianshen
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Uechi Ryu History
I heard the Uechi Ryu's chinese influence was Southern Tiger and Gojy Ryu's was Southern Crane. Is this true?
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Bill Glasheen
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Uechi Ryu History
Kong
As far as the strict emphasis, there is merit to this point of view. Uechi ryu's emphasis on the specialized, open-handed striking weapons (vs. the closed fist) definitely demonstrates a strong tiger influence, and there are kata that Goju folks practice that are purely crane forms. However oral history has it that Uechi has influence from tiger, dragon, and crane. Distinct crane movements and postures are obvious in a number of the Uechi forms - particularly their brand of seisan.
Some of us also believe that there is southern mantis influence in some of the newer Uechi ryu forms that were choreographed after Uechi Kanbun returned from Fuzhou China. There are new movements in these 5 kata that do not exist in the original 3. One can only speculate on their origin.
- Bill
As far as the strict emphasis, there is merit to this point of view. Uechi ryu's emphasis on the specialized, open-handed striking weapons (vs. the closed fist) definitely demonstrates a strong tiger influence, and there are kata that Goju folks practice that are purely crane forms. However oral history has it that Uechi has influence from tiger, dragon, and crane. Distinct crane movements and postures are obvious in a number of the Uechi forms - particularly their brand of seisan.
Some of us also believe that there is southern mantis influence in some of the newer Uechi ryu forms that were choreographed after Uechi Kanbun returned from Fuzhou China. There are new movements in these 5 kata that do not exist in the original 3. One can only speculate on their origin.
- Bill
Uechi Ryu History
Bill-san,
I read in another thread that "some" had doubts about Kanbun's story of the origin of Uechi Ryu karate. I think you were the poster.
Can you elaborate on that?
It is not my intention to creat a muddy pond or to sling any mud. I am,however,intersted in any stories I might not have heard or read about Kanbun's (Kanei's?) karate.
DL
I read in another thread that "some" had doubts about Kanbun's story of the origin of Uechi Ryu karate. I think you were the poster.
Can you elaborate on that?
It is not my intention to creat a muddy pond or to sling any mud. I am,however,intersted in any stories I might not have heard or read about Kanbun's (Kanei's?) karate.
DL
Uechi Ryu History
Bill-san,
I read last night in Patrick MacCarthy's book on the Anceint Okinawan Masters that Uechi Kanei was a student of Mabuni Kenwa in what eventually became $hito Ryu.
Is this true?
If so, what impact did Mabuni have on the evolution of Uechi Ryu? Since $hito Ryo abounds in kata, did Uechi Kanei get some ideas for the additional Uechi Ryu kata from Mabuni?
DL
[This message has been edited by Tokezu (edited December 13, 2000).]
I read last night in Patrick MacCarthy's book on the Anceint Okinawan Masters that Uechi Kanei was a student of Mabuni Kenwa in what eventually became $hito Ryu.
Is this true?
If so, what impact did Mabuni have on the evolution of Uechi Ryu? Since $hito Ryo abounds in kata, did Uechi Kanei get some ideas for the additional Uechi Ryu kata from Mabuni?
DL
[This message has been edited by Tokezu (edited December 13, 2000).]
Uechi Ryu History
Jim-san
Thanks for the reply. I think you are right. I did some Web Searches on $hito Ryu and found one site where they stated exactly what you said.
DL
Thanks for the reply. I think you are right. I did some Web Searches on $hito Ryu and found one site where they stated exactly what you said.
DL
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Uechi Ryu History
Tozeku
Sorry to have missed your previous question about origins of Uechi ryu.
We have to remember that much of what we know about the system of Uechi ryu today is the product of oral history. This has its problems. Both the Chinese and Okinawans have a charming tendency to exaggerate, and there are details that can be omitted if they don't flatter the parties involved.
The most significant thing we know today is that folks have been over to mainland China in the area where Kanbun allegedly studied, and nobody has been able to find someone who practices "The Big Three" kata (sanchin, seisan, sanseiryu). What does that mean? It could mean many things. It could mean that the Chinese weren't as concerned as the Okinawans are today with archiving fighting methods. Perhaps they forgot forms as easily as they choreographed them. On the other extreme, it could be that the system we know today was largely choreographed by Uechi Kanbun himself after his travels.
Another issue has to do with exactly what Kanbun was doing in China, and whom he did it with. There are traditional stories that speak of Kanbun needing to leave China because one of his students killed someone in a boundary dispute. However others (Dollar) report that stories were whispered that indicate that Kanbun himself may have been the one who killed the person that triggered his flight. And there are still more stories that link Kanbun to underground groups involved with the Boxer Rebellion. All of it makes for some interesting speculation about the system and what Kanbun actually learned vs. eventually taught. Unless we find more direct links to the original system near Fuzhou, we'll probably never be able to confirm the oral history. Right now there are forms practiced in that region that look close. There is a crane form I learned from a Fuzhou master that has elements of Uechiryu in it. But it is...different.
Finally, there has been a rumor that there was a fourth (suparinpei) form that Kanbun was exposed to. Some Okinawans who worked with Uechi Kanbun (Toyama) say it exists; others (Tomoyose) say it never existed. Simon Lailey came back with a form by that name that looks...interesting. I have learned it and both practice and teach it. Let's just say that it is from the same neighborhood as the body of knowledge Kanbun was exposed to. Whether it is the same form changed by time or an entirely different piece of choreography, we'll never know.
Hope that helps.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited December 14, 2000).]
Sorry to have missed your previous question about origins of Uechi ryu.
We have to remember that much of what we know about the system of Uechi ryu today is the product of oral history. This has its problems. Both the Chinese and Okinawans have a charming tendency to exaggerate, and there are details that can be omitted if they don't flatter the parties involved.
The most significant thing we know today is that folks have been over to mainland China in the area where Kanbun allegedly studied, and nobody has been able to find someone who practices "The Big Three" kata (sanchin, seisan, sanseiryu). What does that mean? It could mean many things. It could mean that the Chinese weren't as concerned as the Okinawans are today with archiving fighting methods. Perhaps they forgot forms as easily as they choreographed them. On the other extreme, it could be that the system we know today was largely choreographed by Uechi Kanbun himself after his travels.
Another issue has to do with exactly what Kanbun was doing in China, and whom he did it with. There are traditional stories that speak of Kanbun needing to leave China because one of his students killed someone in a boundary dispute. However others (Dollar) report that stories were whispered that indicate that Kanbun himself may have been the one who killed the person that triggered his flight. And there are still more stories that link Kanbun to underground groups involved with the Boxer Rebellion. All of it makes for some interesting speculation about the system and what Kanbun actually learned vs. eventually taught. Unless we find more direct links to the original system near Fuzhou, we'll probably never be able to confirm the oral history. Right now there are forms practiced in that region that look close. There is a crane form I learned from a Fuzhou master that has elements of Uechiryu in it. But it is...different.
Finally, there has been a rumor that there was a fourth (suparinpei) form that Kanbun was exposed to. Some Okinawans who worked with Uechi Kanbun (Toyama) say it exists; others (Tomoyose) say it never existed. Simon Lailey came back with a form by that name that looks...interesting. I have learned it and both practice and teach it. Let's just say that it is from the same neighborhood as the body of knowledge Kanbun was exposed to. Whether it is the same form changed by time or an entirely different piece of choreography, we'll never know.
Hope that helps.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited December 14, 2000).]
Uechi Ryu History
Bill Sensei-
Thanks for answering. Since discovering Uechi Ryu, I've been gobbling up everything I can find about its history. (this forum is a gold mine)
I have found nothing in the practice of UR that lacks use or leads me to believe that I should seek elsewhere for another system. However, I suspect I am like many others who would really like to find "the lost scrolls of UR History", some paintings of Shu Shi Wa teaching Sanchin to Kandun Sensei, and an official certificate signed by Shu Shi Wa that's easily dated by Carbon 14 analysis with genetic DNA markers from the Uechi family.
This might be an emotional desire to legitamize what my brain and heart already know.
DL
Thanks for answering. Since discovering Uechi Ryu, I've been gobbling up everything I can find about its history. (this forum is a gold mine)
I have found nothing in the practice of UR that lacks use or leads me to believe that I should seek elsewhere for another system. However, I suspect I am like many others who would really like to find "the lost scrolls of UR History", some paintings of Shu Shi Wa teaching Sanchin to Kandun Sensei, and an official certificate signed by Shu Shi Wa that's easily dated by Carbon 14 analysis with genetic DNA markers from the Uechi family.
This might be an emotional desire to legitamize what my brain and heart already know.
DL
Uechi Ryu History
Tokezu,
I believe the Kanei Uechi referenced in Mr. Mc Carthy's "Ancient Okinawan Masters" is not the same Uechi of Uechi-Ryu karate. The "other" Kanyei Uechi was a student of Kenwa Mabuni and continued to teach Mabuni's style of karate (****o-Ryu) on Okinawa, while Mabuni taught his style on the Japan mainland.
I believe the Kanei Uechi referenced in Mr. Mc Carthy's "Ancient Okinawan Masters" is not the same Uechi of Uechi-Ryu karate. The "other" Kanyei Uechi was a student of Kenwa Mabuni and continued to teach Mabuni's style of karate (****o-Ryu) on Okinawa, while Mabuni taught his style on the Japan mainland.
