Hi Mary, If the derailment had happened in Cape Breton there would have been just a big puff of snow. No injuries.
I look at this as someone who razed a little hell when I was young. I wonder what people would say if someone had noticed the switch first and the only result was a delay.
Sometime young guys mostly, but increasingly girls also, do stupid things and don't look far enough ahead to see the impact. They see all kinds of weird stuff happening on WWF or a dozen other TV shows and nobody gets hurt.
That said I think these young fellows should be charged as adults. It's too bad they didn't realize what they were doing could have killed a lot of people, but they did it and they should be held accountable.
On The Young Offenders Act, isn't it automatic that they are treated as adults unless their lawyers petition the court to have them treated as juveniles ? You would probably know more on this than me, Mary. If that is so(and I could be wrong) how is it so many win that fight.
I'm just happy I got through those years without a criminal record. Before the training, Before finding the Way, Before the world is real. My father used to say" God reaches down and grabs the brain from a 14 year old, and tells him, You'll get this back when you know how to use it. That is usually around the age of 25." I hope these guys can recover from this.
As well I would like to say my thoughts are with those who were injured.
Gilbert.
Long Weekend
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Gilbert MacIntyre
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Long Weekend
Mary,
Like Gilbert, my heart goes out to those who suffered the consequences. I can't even say my heart is "bleeding" for the teen(s) involved because I don't know their/his/her situation. I am just looking at it and saying "By the Grace of...."
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I am not taking a strong stance about this situation with the perpetrator(s). I think sometimes that I've seen too much, heard too much and know too much about different situations with specific kids/teens. More than anger, I sometimes simply dispair.
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited April 15, 2001).]
Like Gilbert, my heart goes out to those who suffered the consequences. I can't even say my heart is "bleeding" for the teen(s) involved because I don't know their/his/her situation. I am just looking at it and saying "By the Grace of...."
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
This raises another question. And what of those who never had parents who taught them that, or had parents/guardians who care to do so?At what age does accountability kick in? I was taught as a child that if it wasn't mine, I didn't touch it, if it wasn't a safe place, I didn't go there, if I did something wrong I would be punished. Three simple rules, not that difficult to follow.
I am not taking a strong stance about this situation with the perpetrator(s). I think sometimes that I've seen too much, heard too much and know too much about different situations with specific kids/teens. More than anger, I sometimes simply dispair.
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited April 15, 2001).]
Long Weekend
David, I don't know all the facts either in this particular situation. What I do know is that there are definitely problems and there seems little being done to solve them. I know there are different situations for many kids. I just think that there has to be a change. I can't even begin to say where we should start but far to often we hide things under the rug. Hopefully at least one kid somewhere will see the ramnifications of this act and get a little smarter. Who knows? 
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Gilbert MacIntyre
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Long Weekend
Mary, I believe the guilty party should pay. I don't believe the kids actually thought things were going to be as bad as they turned out. I guessing here , but I'd say they wished they were dead when they stood there looking at those huge train cars setting in the middle of a feed store.
I was taught as well, respect others and their property. Did I always? No. I was young and trying to make a name for myself. My parents were extremely strict, but I still had police chasing me for half of my teen-age years.
Make them pay, but if you're not going into schools throughout Nova Scotia, right now while it's fresh in the mind, and impressing upon kids that their actions have an impact on their future. Then you are only going to affect these guys.
These things happen when young guys try to impress each other. I don't know if we can ever change that. It sure is nice having lived through it and not be ruined by it.
Gilbert
[This message has been edited by Gilbert MacIntyre (edited April 15, 2001).]
I was taught as well, respect others and their property. Did I always? No. I was young and trying to make a name for myself. My parents were extremely strict, but I still had police chasing me for half of my teen-age years.
Make them pay, but if you're not going into schools throughout Nova Scotia, right now while it's fresh in the mind, and impressing upon kids that their actions have an impact on their future. Then you are only going to affect these guys.
These things happen when young guys try to impress each other. I don't know if we can ever change that. It sure is nice having lived through it and not be ruined by it.
Gilbert
[This message has been edited by Gilbert MacIntyre (edited April 15, 2001).]
Long Weekend
Last year the train station was burnt down in Stewiacke...this year a switch was tampered with. Gilbert I understand where you and David are coming from with your posts. My problem with this whole thing is that the kids (or kid) had to know that changing the switch would have consequences. Under the YOA the teenager charged could get "life". If justice means punishment, so be it. At what age does accountability kick in? I was taught as a child that if it wasn't mine, I didn't touch it, if it wasn't a safe place, I didn't go there, if I did something wrong I would be punished. Three simple rules, not that difficult to follow. I feel bad for the parents, and the community and the passengers. I'm finding it difficult to sympathize with the teens.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Long Weekend
Mary
If you read my post, you'll realize that we are in agreement. The law needs to be maintained. However... Believe me, there are times when I think the same. I'd love to go around exterminating thugs like roaches.
I live in a very nice neighborhood. It's that way because people like myself care and don't ever let things get anywhere near bad. You don't dare put graffiti in my neighborhood without incurring my wrath. I can remember a day when I had finally "had it" with people posting signs around my neighborhood. So one day I went out with van, stepladder, and hammer, and removed every poster and sign off of every post, tree, and telephone pole. Halfway through, a police car stopped and the officer came over to ask what I was doing. I showed him the fifty or so signs advertising anywhere from new homes to losing 50 pounds for $49.99. He smiled and said "Keep on keeping on!" And since I did that, not a single sign has lasted more than a day in the neighborhood - and not by my doing. Funny what happens when a few people care and act.
You see...I think the solutions most would propose are way too simplistic to work. You cannot use government or the courts to raise other peoples' kids. What has changed over time is that government and society has gotten in the way of social custom. Shame used to be the rule of law; now we seem to need government and lawyers.
In the U.S., we have these Republicans who are law-and-order proponents, and want all these mandatory sentences. Fine...so we throw a lot of people in jail. Meanwhile, they also want to cut budgets, and we can't afford to imprison all these people. So we end up letting out violent offenders on the back end - after they have had time to live amongst other low lifes. Great... On the flip side, we have the liberal tolerant who want to rehabilitate, but then they also support social systems that encourage young boys to get young girls pregnant and then leave them to raise children as single mothers. I'm not being sexist when I say that a woman can't raise a young man by herself. It takes a father and a mother. That's a fact. Same holds true for women, but they end up pregnant or with no self esteem rather than in jail.
You want tough? I'll give you tough... If a young man gets a young girl pregnant and doesn't want to play the father role (and we have DNA testing now - no excuses!!!), then he should be neutered, just like the stray dog that he is. Now that's tough. Now that gets at the source of the problem.
Yes, there are less severe solutions. But my point is that people like david are left to administer to these problem kids while others propose simplistic solutions that just don't work. Well...maybe we should consider the politicians that propose the solutions can get votes from their simple-minded constituents. Maybe they aren't as dumb as they look.
- Bill
If you read my post, you'll realize that we are in agreement. The law needs to be maintained. However... Believe me, there are times when I think the same. I'd love to go around exterminating thugs like roaches.
I live in a very nice neighborhood. It's that way because people like myself care and don't ever let things get anywhere near bad. You don't dare put graffiti in my neighborhood without incurring my wrath. I can remember a day when I had finally "had it" with people posting signs around my neighborhood. So one day I went out with van, stepladder, and hammer, and removed every poster and sign off of every post, tree, and telephone pole. Halfway through, a police car stopped and the officer came over to ask what I was doing. I showed him the fifty or so signs advertising anywhere from new homes to losing 50 pounds for $49.99. He smiled and said "Keep on keeping on!" And since I did that, not a single sign has lasted more than a day in the neighborhood - and not by my doing. Funny what happens when a few people care and act.
You see...I think the solutions most would propose are way too simplistic to work. You cannot use government or the courts to raise other peoples' kids. What has changed over time is that government and society has gotten in the way of social custom. Shame used to be the rule of law; now we seem to need government and lawyers.
In the U.S., we have these Republicans who are law-and-order proponents, and want all these mandatory sentences. Fine...so we throw a lot of people in jail. Meanwhile, they also want to cut budgets, and we can't afford to imprison all these people. So we end up letting out violent offenders on the back end - after they have had time to live amongst other low lifes. Great... On the flip side, we have the liberal tolerant who want to rehabilitate, but then they also support social systems that encourage young boys to get young girls pregnant and then leave them to raise children as single mothers. I'm not being sexist when I say that a woman can't raise a young man by herself. It takes a father and a mother. That's a fact. Same holds true for women, but they end up pregnant or with no self esteem rather than in jail.
You want tough? I'll give you tough... If a young man gets a young girl pregnant and doesn't want to play the father role (and we have DNA testing now - no excuses!!!), then he should be neutered, just like the stray dog that he is. Now that's tough. Now that gets at the source of the problem.
Yes, there are less severe solutions. But my point is that people like david are left to administer to these problem kids while others propose simplistic solutions that just don't work. Well...maybe we should consider the politicians that propose the solutions can get votes from their simple-minded constituents. Maybe they aren't as dumb as they look.
- Bill
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gmattson
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Long Weekend
Fantastic post Bill! You should run for President!
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GEM
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GEM
Long Weekend
Bill, I sense we are having a "meeting of the minds" 
Great post - you get my vote!
Great post - you get my vote!
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paul giella
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Sun Sep 27, 1998 6:01 am
Long Weekend
Mary S,
Eerie, ain't it, the similarity between your near miss and the story seen from the other side... one of our very own who, many years ago, set out as a misguided youth to do exactly the same thing - for kicks - and ended up blowing his limb off before he could hurt anyone else. Not among us anymore. But when he was we didn't have the wherewithal to appreciate the enormity of the threat. What with all that's happened in the world since, I wonder if we would embrace him now as a brother, as we once did. To think we could have lost you to some dangerous fool's idea of a good time...
Eerie, ain't it, the similarity between your near miss and the story seen from the other side... one of our very own who, many years ago, set out as a misguided youth to do exactly the same thing - for kicks - and ended up blowing his limb off before he could hurt anyone else. Not among us anymore. But when he was we didn't have the wherewithal to appreciate the enormity of the threat. What with all that's happened in the world since, I wonder if we would embrace him now as a brother, as we once did. To think we could have lost you to some dangerous fool's idea of a good time...
Long Weekend
Paul,
If you're referring to who I think you are, I met that person much after the incident. In some discussions with him before folks arrived for classes, I was always of the impression he was a nice guy. He was straightforward in saying he blew off his arm playing with explosives. Maybe there was more that I did not know.
Even with one arm a stub, that guy can fight and hit like a club with that stub. This may be wrong but the reason I heard he left practice was that he had begun to find the training violent. Ironic, perhaps...? Or, people can change. Some pay for their mistakes/crime. Some learn from them. Some do neither...
Again, I think kids should be held "accountable" and, yes, should face some form of punishment. Increasingly, this means doing adult time and in adult prisons. We seem to agree with accountability but I question the wisdom of this "get tough" approach because these kids do come back out at some point. How do they come out? Think about it.
Coincidentally, this was on ABC World News Tonight:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Nowhere to Hide
Prison Rape Called Common, But Inmates' Complaints Often Ignored
By Dan Harris
April 16 — Just weeks after he entered the Texas prison system at age 19, Kerry Max Cook says he was gang-raped by fellow inmates. It was the beginning of what he describes as two decades of torture.
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
A 'Sexual Jungle' Sentenced to Torture?
More than 200,000 men are raped behind bars each year, according to the group Stop Prisoner Rape. While rape under any circumstances is a violation, human rights advocates say rape in prison is also torture.
Cook, now released from prison, says the first attack came not long after he ended up behind bars.
"They made me take my clothes off," says Cook. "They bent me over a concrete embankment that used to sit outside in the yard."
Before it was over, the inmates had carved obscenities into Cook's backside.
Over the next two years, he says, he was repeatedly assaulted and even locked up with his attackers.
"And once the door slams," Cook says, a cellmate told him, "'Take your clothes off.' Well, what am I gonna do? Who am I gonna call? Who am I gonna ask for help? I just endured it.
"This could go on for six months, seven months, maybe a year. Then he got executed or he moved out or something happened. Then comes the next one."
A 'Sexual Jungle'
The American prison system has been described as a "sexual jungle," where there are predators and prey. Experts say some prison officials quietly permit rape as a way to control the population.
"Where the predators — the more violent, powerful inmates — are in effect being given a bribe or a reward to cooperate with the prison authorities," says Harvard University criminologist Dr. James Gilligan. "As long as they cooperate, the prison authorities will permit them to have their victims."
This may be why inmates such as Matthew Rolen say their cries of rape are simply ignored by prison officials.
"They told me flat out: we don't care," says Rolen, who is thin and nonviolent, which makes him a target.
Rolen says he filed a series of complaints to Texas prison officials. They didn't intervene, he says, until an attacker beat him unconscious in a crowded dayroom.
Texas prison officials say they take all complaints seriously.
"Bring us documented proof and we will investigate it," says Larry Todd of the Texas Department of Corrections. "I cannot imagine a correctional officer turning his head on an act of violence on an inmate."
But Johnny Vasquez, a former prison guard, says, "It happens all the time."
Vasquez echoes allegations of indifference made by inmates and activists across the country.
"Several responses that I can remember are, 'You need to grow some and defend yourself. Quit coming in here crying. Get out of my office. Don't bring this to me,'" says Vasquez.
"As far as the administration cares," says Rolen, "we're animals, we're thrown into a cage. We're to be kept there, whatever happens to us."
Sentenced to Torture?
Cook is now a free man with a wife and child. He was released from Texas' death row after getting a new trial.
"Even if I would have been guilty of the offense of murder, I don't remember the trial court reading to me that as part of my sentence was to go to the Texas Department of Corrections and be tortured … for 22 years," says Cook.
Tune in to World News Tonight Tuesday for the second part in this series on prison rape.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is not just a "story" out there. I heard of three teens in the community, one I know tangentially, being sent to adult prison for property crimes -- stealing cars and such. All three had been raped repeatedly while doing time.
We may say we don't care. They deserved it. So be it. I just hope not to be the one they "meet up" with in the future...
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited April 17, 2001).]
If you're referring to who I think you are, I met that person much after the incident. In some discussions with him before folks arrived for classes, I was always of the impression he was a nice guy. He was straightforward in saying he blew off his arm playing with explosives. Maybe there was more that I did not know.
Even with one arm a stub, that guy can fight and hit like a club with that stub. This may be wrong but the reason I heard he left practice was that he had begun to find the training violent. Ironic, perhaps...? Or, people can change. Some pay for their mistakes/crime. Some learn from them. Some do neither...
Again, I think kids should be held "accountable" and, yes, should face some form of punishment. Increasingly, this means doing adult time and in adult prisons. We seem to agree with accountability but I question the wisdom of this "get tough" approach because these kids do come back out at some point. How do they come out? Think about it.
Coincidentally, this was on ABC World News Tonight:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Nowhere to Hide
Prison Rape Called Common, But Inmates' Complaints Often Ignored
By Dan Harris
April 16 — Just weeks after he entered the Texas prison system at age 19, Kerry Max Cook says he was gang-raped by fellow inmates. It was the beginning of what he describes as two decades of torture.
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
A 'Sexual Jungle' Sentenced to Torture?
More than 200,000 men are raped behind bars each year, according to the group Stop Prisoner Rape. While rape under any circumstances is a violation, human rights advocates say rape in prison is also torture.
Cook, now released from prison, says the first attack came not long after he ended up behind bars.
"They made me take my clothes off," says Cook. "They bent me over a concrete embankment that used to sit outside in the yard."
Before it was over, the inmates had carved obscenities into Cook's backside.
Over the next two years, he says, he was repeatedly assaulted and even locked up with his attackers.
"And once the door slams," Cook says, a cellmate told him, "'Take your clothes off.' Well, what am I gonna do? Who am I gonna call? Who am I gonna ask for help? I just endured it.
"This could go on for six months, seven months, maybe a year. Then he got executed or he moved out or something happened. Then comes the next one."
A 'Sexual Jungle'
The American prison system has been described as a "sexual jungle," where there are predators and prey. Experts say some prison officials quietly permit rape as a way to control the population.
"Where the predators — the more violent, powerful inmates — are in effect being given a bribe or a reward to cooperate with the prison authorities," says Harvard University criminologist Dr. James Gilligan. "As long as they cooperate, the prison authorities will permit them to have their victims."
This may be why inmates such as Matthew Rolen say their cries of rape are simply ignored by prison officials.
"They told me flat out: we don't care," says Rolen, who is thin and nonviolent, which makes him a target.
Rolen says he filed a series of complaints to Texas prison officials. They didn't intervene, he says, until an attacker beat him unconscious in a crowded dayroom.
Texas prison officials say they take all complaints seriously.
"Bring us documented proof and we will investigate it," says Larry Todd of the Texas Department of Corrections. "I cannot imagine a correctional officer turning his head on an act of violence on an inmate."
But Johnny Vasquez, a former prison guard, says, "It happens all the time."
Vasquez echoes allegations of indifference made by inmates and activists across the country.
"Several responses that I can remember are, 'You need to grow some and defend yourself. Quit coming in here crying. Get out of my office. Don't bring this to me,'" says Vasquez.
"As far as the administration cares," says Rolen, "we're animals, we're thrown into a cage. We're to be kept there, whatever happens to us."
Sentenced to Torture?
Cook is now a free man with a wife and child. He was released from Texas' death row after getting a new trial.
"Even if I would have been guilty of the offense of murder, I don't remember the trial court reading to me that as part of my sentence was to go to the Texas Department of Corrections and be tortured … for 22 years," says Cook.
Tune in to World News Tonight Tuesday for the second part in this series on prison rape.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is not just a "story" out there. I heard of three teens in the community, one I know tangentially, being sent to adult prison for property crimes -- stealing cars and such. All three had been raped repeatedly while doing time.
We may say we don't care. They deserved it. So be it. I just hope not to be the one they "meet up" with in the future...
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited April 17, 2001).]
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Long Weekend
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Ahhh...there's the rub. So many of us take our upbringings for granted. Some kids aren't that lucky.
Accountability needs to be a firm issue. Otherwise there will always be some attorney trying to get a client off on psychobabble (violent TV and Cocoa Puffs made him do it...). But it needs to go beyond there. I'm surprised there isn't more criminal and/or civil litigation against fathers who aren't around to see to it that their offspring grow up properly.
And we as a society need to stop perpetuating systems that encourage parents to abdicate their responsibilities. Otherwise, we end up with class and/or race warfare (Cincinatti is a good example...) and everyone wondering what the heck is happening.
- Bill
- MaryI was taught as a child that if it wasn't mine, I didn't touch it, if it wasn't a safe place, I didn't go there, if I did something wrong I would be punished. Three simple rules, not that difficult to follow. I feel bad for the parents, and the community and the passengers. I'm finding it difficult to sympathize with the teens.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
- davidThis raises another question. And what of those who never had parents who taught them that, or had parents/guardians who care to do so?
Ahhh...there's the rub. So many of us take our upbringings for granted. Some kids aren't that lucky.
Accountability needs to be a firm issue. Otherwise there will always be some attorney trying to get a client off on psychobabble (violent TV and Cocoa Puffs made him do it...). But it needs to go beyond there. I'm surprised there isn't more criminal and/or civil litigation against fathers who aren't around to see to it that their offspring grow up properly.
And we as a society need to stop perpetuating systems that encourage parents to abdicate their responsibilities. Otherwise, we end up with class and/or race warfare (Cincinatti is a good example...) and everyone wondering what the heck is happening.
- Bill
Long Weekend
Bill, I didn't take my upbringing for granted. I was fortunate to have strict parents who set ground rules. If those rules were broken there was punishment. And yes, occasionally I got punished for breaking the rules
But let's take it beyond parenthood for a moment. It seems to me that society often forgives and (seemingly) forgets far too often for my liking. There should be penalities when a wrongdoing occurs. I think those penalities are too lax. Period. End of story.
Far too often it seems that we say "Oh it was just a teenager feeling their oats" or "Well, no one was killed, we should be lenient". Perhaps if there were stricter penalties in force there would be less crime....remember when it was no big deal to down a few drinks and get behind the wheel of a car? All fun and games til someone got killed. Penalties are much heavier now when one is caught drinking and driving...I don't have to tell you what they are. Society basically decided that a very dangerous practice needed to be stopped....and we've come a very long way.
My point is that far too often teenagers and kids are getting away with things they should not be getting away with. I'm starting to lean towards corporal punishment. Too harsh? Too bad.
[This message has been edited by Mary S (edited April 16, 2001).]
I was fortunate to have strict parents who set ground rules. If those rules were broken there was punishment. And yes, occasionally I got punished for breaking the rules But let's take it beyond parenthood for a moment. It seems to me that society often forgives and (seemingly) forgets far too often for my liking. There should be penalities when a wrongdoing occurs. I think those penalities are too lax. Period. End of story.
Far too often it seems that we say "Oh it was just a teenager feeling their oats" or "Well, no one was killed, we should be lenient". Perhaps if there were stricter penalties in force there would be less crime....remember when it was no big deal to down a few drinks and get behind the wheel of a car? All fun and games til someone got killed. Penalties are much heavier now when one is caught drinking and driving...I don't have to tell you what they are. Society basically decided that a very dangerous practice needed to be stopped....and we've come a very long way.
My point is that far too often teenagers and kids are getting away with things they should not be getting away with. I'm starting to lean towards corporal punishment. Too harsh? Too bad.
[This message has been edited by Mary S (edited April 16, 2001).]
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paul giella
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Sun Sep 27, 1998 6:01 am
Long Weekend
david,
Yes, I am talking about the same person. And yes, some people can change, at least to some degree. My point is that we do not have to look far to find the dark side, the "BG-side" even among ourselves or even within ourselves... we need to be vigilant of ourselves first and foremost. Am I exaggerating? Probably. But the point is that the 'do' part of karatedo has to do with character development, and we should take it seriously.
Yes, I am talking about the same person. And yes, some people can change, at least to some degree. My point is that we do not have to look far to find the dark side, the "BG-side" even among ourselves or even within ourselves... we need to be vigilant of ourselves first and foremost. Am I exaggerating? Probably. But the point is that the 'do' part of karatedo has to do with character development, and we should take it seriously.
