Attitudes

Raffi Derderian · Post by **Raffi Derderian** » Wed May 16, 2001 6:44 pm

Something must be in the martial arts air lately. A month ago, a friend who ownes a school in Ct told me one of his students, a shodan, walked into his office and told him he was opening a school. Then he left. He opened a few miles away. I had a student very recently who left me because he has been reading JKD books and now of course (after 4 years of studying with me and the books) he knows more than me. So he left to go train people on his own. Even though I had been working with him for months to get him ready to open a place and do it properly. You know, not make the same mistakes I did. (and still do I'm afraid)
Just a few weeks ago a friend of mine with a school here in RI found out through the grapevine one his students who trains with him, another new shodan, is planning secretly to open a school. Is there something in the atmosphere I am not smelling?
I have seen so many times in my life a new shodan/instructor who now feels after their 5 or 6 (or maybe more) years of training that they know more than their teacher who has trained for perhaps 20+ years. I am always amazed at this. Of course, most new shodans are very respectful and appreciative of what their teacher has done for them. I am not stereotyping them at all. I guess I'm just venting a little.
Keep training hard folks.
Raf

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http://members.aol.com/damajkd/dama.html

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Wed May 16, 2001 7:39 pm

Hi Raf,

So what else is knew?

You are up against human nature. No-one is immune. Look at the Okinawan example. in the near future there will be more associations of Uechi than you can shake a stick at, all claiming to be the real thing, and forbidding each other's students to even talk to one another.

One thing is for sure: martial "artists" have the biggest ego in the world, and then the all mighty buck rules.

So don't let it get to you.

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Van Canna

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed May 16, 2001 8:03 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

So what else is knew?

Clever pun, Van?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Look at the Okinawan example. in the near future there will be more associations of Uechi than you can shake a stick at, all claiming to be the real thing, and forbidding each other's students to even talk to one another.

Yes, but they don't know the secret handshake!

Raffi

I don't know what is more frustrating - having a student leave without consultation to teach, or having a person quit at shodan as if they thought they had it all.

One thing I look for when I promote something is indeed "attitude". If I detect even the slightest sense of arrogance, entitlement, or superiority, I have ways.... They may indeed test, but rest assured I will find a way to make it a humbling (bordering on humiliating) experience. In my mind it is so important. We aren't being mean by such acts; we are teaching someone a lesson that may save their life. Tests after all are part of the learning experience. I saw elements of that in my graduate program at UVa. I can remember not being prepared on a certain subject at my masters orals, and I still remember that professor yelling at me so hard that veins were standing out on his face. Believe me - I was fully prepared for my doctorate exams. But another fellow in the same round of doctorate exams took a trip to Hawaii two months before the exam, and then came back and gave a slide show to his fellow grad students. Big mistake... The same professor that haunted me yelled at him, then stormed out of the room, and then refused to come back. Yes, he failed.

I may be talking in extremes here, Raffi, and I don't usually need to do anything like this. But I think it's important to know the students we test. And I think we do ourselves and the students a disservice by compromising our standards.

At a recent shodan test where I needed to get a little "heavy" with one student, I remember a comment Ian made after I asked him to review the "issues" we identified during the test. He said "And after I tell him those, I'll give him the 'You were a great ikkyu but now you're a $hitty shodan' speech." That about sums it up, no?

- Bill

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Wed May 16, 2001 10:39 pm

Canna-Sensei,

No disrespect, but actors and theater people in general have MUCH bigger egos than martial artists. Trust me on this for I have moved in both worlds. (no ego THERE! ROTFLMAO)

As to your comment about the "original Uechi-ryu" claims, I seem to recall something similar happening in a medievalist's organization I used to belong to many moons ago... Ask my buddy Student about THOSE egos. Seems to go with the territory of any organization founded by an individual. And it's a bloody shame.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
Hi Raf,

One thing is for sure: martial "artists" have the biggest ego in the world, and then the all mighty buck rules.

So don't let it get to you.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

david · Post by **david** » Thu May 17, 2001 11:02 am

Raffi,

I'll save you the time and effort. Just send me the certificate now. Oh, BTW, do you know of a storefront in your area that I can rent...?

Seriously, I rant about this before... Folks who are in such a rush to "teach." A short journey and they think they have "arrived." Not clue about what they don't know. Unfortunately, it should be expected. These folks will make you appreciate more those students who are more serious and thoughtful.

david

student · Post by **student** » Thu May 17, 2001 11:34 am

Raffi:

You might try killing him with kindness.

Drop in on his school. Praise his accomplishments, but remind him that he hasn't yet earned his certification to instruct and he may have bitten off more than he can chew.

Let him know that the door to your school is still open - but until you are satisfied that he is qualified to teach he cannot, in any way, claim that he is one of your instructors. Follow that in writing; you will not accept any liability for his prematurely opening a school, and he is not to use your name to bolster his credibility.

It may give him something to think about.

And if not, well then think of how wonderful an instructor you must be to turn out a shodan who can start his own school....

Lee:

People on this Forum savvy the Society For Creative Anachronists (in which both Lee and I are now walking...well, hobbling, Anachronisms); Jake Steinmann (who moderates the HighGear [Tony Blauer's simulation armor] Forum has done SCA fencing [not the heavy weapons, the rapiers]).

student,
AOA

Raffi Derderian · Post by **Raffi Derderian** » Thu May 17, 2001 2:29 pm

Thanks all for lending an ear to my ranting.
I have been through this before, unfortunatley and have seen some of my teachers go through it in worse situations for sure.
On the day I found out about my student, I did send him a certified letter stating if I were to find out he was claiming to be a representative of me or my school, or anyone who is or was a member, I would take legal action against him.
Unfortunatly in the JKD world, there are people he could go to and get a license practically overnight. It's a money game for some and nothing more.
What is more upsetting to me is another friend who has, as I mentioned before, found out one of his NEW shodans has been talking to another Sensei about opening a school under HIM and not my friend. Without going into details about why, he can't really approach this person about the subject. So he has to watch this piss poor example of a black belt, no talent and obviously a two face, in class and know that he can't do anything at this point. Again, his reasons for this are sound, and I can't provide any details. I just feel bad for him.
Thanks for the time all.
Raf

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu May 17, 2001 4:26 pm

Raf

This thought just occurred to me. We are talking about JKD, right? I've read The Tao of Jeet Kune Do and I paid attention to a lot of the Bruce Lee "classical mess" and anti-style hype. And now here we are 30 years or so later with the founder RIP, and the "same old same old" political junk going on.

So...what would Bruce say about all this? And what would Yogi Berra say?

- Bill

gjkhoury · Post by **gjkhoury** » Fri May 18, 2001 3:11 am

Raf:

Sounds a lot like parenting! Adults are dopes and kids have everything figured out, right down to how to wipe out world hunger. . .FOREVER!

Still, I was one of those "break away know-it-alls" at one time. We all were/are.

When it's time for students to spread their wings, wish them well. As you know, most first-time flyers make a free fall from the nest!

Keep kickin!

Gary

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Fri May 18, 2001 4:23 pm

Khoury-Sensei,

This reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw the other day:

"If at first you don't succeed, then,
Skydiving is NOT for you!"

Sometimes a child has to get a bloody nose before they learn not to fall off the bike.

Respectfully (but with a glint of humor behind the Foster Grants),

Lee Darrow

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by gjkhoury:
Raf:

When it's time for students to spread their wings, wish them well. As you know, most first-time flyers make a free fall from the nest!

Keep kickin!

Gary

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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"No matter where you go, there you MIGHT be!" - Heisenberg

paul giella · Post by **paul giella** » Sat May 19, 2001 12:54 pm

Here is a dilemma, then. Because as teachers, or as parents, we want our students (and our children) to grow up and become independent, self-thinking individuals. But we don't want them going off on their own until they truly have the skills to handle the challenge. Remind them of the story of Phyton (the mythyic character who "borrowed" the chariot of the sun from his father, Zeus, and wreaked havoc on the earthlings because he lacked the mature strength to control the fiery steeds... his father had to slay him with a thunderbolt in order to save the world.) Or Icarus, who ignored his father's entreaties and flew too close to the sun, melting his waxen wings and falling to his death in the sea (now known as the Icarian Sea in his memory). Youth carries with it this danger of impetuous narcissism. It is, on the one hand, part of the zest and spice of life (who doesn't secretly admire the vainglory of the beautiful youth coming into his own?)On the other hand, it is a time of danger, as the youth, like Phyton, may bite off more than he can chew, with disastrous results. The solution? The mature Sensei does just what was suggested in the above posts; discourage direct competition for students, encourage continuous study at the parent dojo, make oneself available as a senior consultant. Don't become adversaries.

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Sat May 19, 2001 3:04 pm

Credit where credit is due: Bill, I heard that "great ikkyu, $hitty shodan" speech from your friend Chris at that restaurant by your old gym at the water tower, shortly after my nidan test.

Thoughts on martial artists and their big egos... for some of them, ever notice that the ego is inversely proportional to the level of expertise?

Some of the judo people I took a few lessons from had 30 years experience and there was never any doubt they were in charge. But, everytime I watched them take on a student, it was obvious how easy it would be for them to through the person clear out the room and the whole time, they were providing exactly the right level of input for the student. They were totally focused on the student's experience, and enhancing it, and praising their success. Every now and then they throw the student effortlessly and still, from offbalancing to landing, every effort was on the safest and most educational experience for the student. I saw one student carelessly punt his instructor's gonads and there wasn't a shred of anger in the response, just a person who took all the blame for not wearing a cup. Not a shred of ego.

So it is with Uechi, as well.

My instructor, Bill, has the experience that would justify being a dojo dictator, but he's not. He shares his opinions and explains them and lets his students make rational decisions on their own. He doesn't make himself out to be a diety, and just runs things by good example. It's ego-free and there isn't a part of the dojo experience that's in place to glorify the Bill, as you might find in McDojos that have glam shots of the instructor flying kicking with swords or breaking concrete slabs or which are preparing students to make a advertisable name for the school rather than teaching them the good stuff.

Thanks, Bill!

I always asked my students at the beginning and the end of my semesterly classes what the point of karate (and judo, etc) was, and at the beginning it's always, "to fight better," or "to win this or that" and by the end they come up with something more philosophical like "the pursuit of the impossible" or "the perfection of the individual" or "the betterment of the self."

If you can do karate on your own--and you can--than it must not be about competition (not that there is anything wrong with it). The person to defeat is the self, just as it was in its meditative roots. So to me, the karate master who still has an enormous ego... well, still has a number of things to master after all.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sun May 20, 2001 3:08 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

He is the true master of men who behaves as if he is their servant.

- Lao-Tzu

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Never give up!

- Jimmy Valvano

It's been a pleasure watching you grow into a man, Ian. New England's gain is my great loss.

- Bill

P.S. Will somebody up their please feed Ian? Too many all-nighters in med school... I dont' want those Boston winds to blow our beanpole away.

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Sun May 20, 2001 4:19 am

6'4" and 160! Guess I need to make my diet a little more strict.