Using the body - it isn't simple!

jdoub · Post by **jdoub** » Tue May 22, 2001 12:28 am

OSU Glasheen-sensei!!

As Panther-san, I too have been lurking. I am enjoying most of the thread.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:
Most poor bastards DO step back when attacked. And so we play with what they naturally do, and worry about changing their mindset later. But should we really be reinforcing bad habits? Hmmm...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With regard to both stepping forward and backward, IMHO some of these instances can be best described as shifting in weight and not actually stepping. For example, in Tai Chi Ch'uan there is a sequence called "Repulse Monkey" where a person would be stepping to the rear as a part of the movement. In reviewing some of the applications of the technique, I have found that attaching and redirecting the attack downward (with a shift/jing down and rear) and accelerating the opposite hand forward (two circles of returning qi - one vertical and one horizontal). This technique I have found to be consistent with the kata Sanchin Tensho.

I have seen similar applications in the "stepping forward and punching" process. In reviewing some of the Okinawan kata, there are transitions from a rear stance to a forward stance. Some folks practice without a weight shift and still others insert a step forward. In some cases, I think that somewhere along the way someone incorporated stepping as a way of getting to next move. IMHO, I feel that fluid circular transition or technique from one movement to the next helps us understand the true fighting range intended for most combative application.

With respect (for my first post on your forum),

John

------------------
John E. Doub, Jr.
Heiwa-Ryu Martial Arts Academy
http://www.heiwa-ryu.org/
"It is a way of life, not a sport."

Evan Pantazi · Post by **Evan Pantazi** » Tue May 22, 2001 5:20 am

Glasheen Sensei,

My apologies if it seemed as though I were trying to say My Sensei's better than yours. This is not the case it was to say more about what one individual teacher taught, and perhaps hear comparisons (or maybe contrasts) to what other martial artists have discovered or are teaching..

It was also to show that even with New Twists we still adhere to Old Karate (Can't get any more traditional than the 'Ol Nai Hanch).

Believe me I am involved on 4 Forums now and it is the same stuff we hashed out here and still sometimes do. Also please believe that I posted this with no emotion just a sampling of what we are doing...I think it's interesting and worthy of disscussion...really TKO'ing a guy from an ankle lock out of an ancient Kata using Kiajutsu, even if this turned out to be an isolated incident, (which it hasn't), how'd it do that and still come from the Traditional Art is my intent here. By the way I would love to take you up on that "Sake Deal".

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Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue May 22, 2001 3:20 pm

John

Welcome to the forum and this thread! It's a pleasure having you comment.

I have to admit that I needed to refer back to my book by Chen Man-ch'ing and Robert W. Smith to get back on board. It's been a while since I've done that form, and I never learned all the fancy names of the postures. But I'm with you now.

The original Chinese system from which all of modern Uechi ryu eminates consists of three forms. Those forms are now the first, the middle (fifth), and the last (eighth), and the 5 new forms slowly introduce elements of the more advanced. The biggest leap from karate 101 to complex body movement happens when one transitions from the second to the third original form. Uechi seisan is very much like the way most young black belts fight. It has lots of powerful thrusts, grabs, knee and elbow strikes/thrusts, and lots of other inside techniques actually better suited for the street than the sparring ring. Uechi sanchin and seisan are very much shallow stance forms.

The last form is really a different mindset. Elements of Uechi sanseiryu remind me a lot of the hip and body movements I used to do in the short Yang form that I learned from Robert Smith and his students. Frankly I feel the Okinawans have done little to explore the weight shifts, transitions, and coordinated body movements that are a hallmark of that form.

The sequence you bring up is interesting in its dynamics, and I think Panther would like it. Rather than stepping back per se and allowing the attacker to gain horizontal momentum, the gist seems to be that one is absorbing and directing an attack down (and maybe slightly to the side) while coming forward with the other hand. It is a different mindset from the Okinawa-designed, prearranged kumite that Panther speaks of, where one steps straight back and does a deflecting block. At times I'm able to get students to rethink the body mechanics so as to create a "bait and redirect" mindset in the opponent. Unfortunately most people just want to step back and bash the arm out of the way. It's really a shame. We have this open-handed system with lots of suggestions of clinging and redirecting, and people just wanna take a closed-fisted block mindset.

I find that the students who capture this different mindset are the ones that also taste a bit of jiu-jitsu, judo, or aikido. Without that contact and constant study of an opponent's center, the mental door is never opened.

- Bill

Dale Knepp · Post by **Dale Knepp** » Tue May 22, 2001 4:51 pm

My apologies if I tread to close to the dark side as that is not my intention. I thought that I stated the facts as I know them without the usual emotional overload that I have criticized my own peers for doing.

When I first read your post, I thought that it was a good opportunity to explore the fact that most of us only think that we (myself included) are good martial artists with a high degree of knowledge after twenty or so years of training. Taika Oyata has said on numerous occasions that he only started to realize the true meaning of what he was doing after thirty years of training. We should all reconsider the level of knowledge that we have and keep an open beginners mind. To often we get involved in teaching others and have the need to show off our meager abilities presenting them as highly developed when in fact they are not. Part of that is the business end of things to be sure but others have a self ego to maintain.

Taika Oyata is highly innovative for an Okinawan teacher and has receive criticism from other senior practitioners for not being traditional enough. We prefer to think of what he teaches as a living Classical art and not something to be perserved in a museum. But he also has said that we should not try to figure out what a particular movement or body position means but to let it develop naturally over time by training properly and simply asking yourself why a movement is done this way. Not chasing after the newest version of a technique or newest explanation of body mechanics. He is critical of others people's methods of research stating that it just doesn't work and generally has proven other innovator's ideas to be wrong. However by accepting the concept that you can learn from everyone, you can learn what NOT to do more often than what to do. The shift in understanding true technique is amazing once you begin to apply it to your training.

A final note: I don't subcribe to the usual misused Japanese forms of address as I feel that it is pretentious. I feel that the title sensei should be reserved for you own personal teacher and someone older than yourself. Also, I personally don't like the familiar san suffix added to my name although this has come into common use. Please address me as Dale or Mr. Knepp as you feel appropriate to the situation.

Best regards,

Dale Knepp

[This message has been edited by Dale Knepp (edited May 22, 2001).]

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Tue May 22, 2001 8:57 pm

Glasheen-sensei,

I've been doing all my Kyu Kumite using a zig-zag movement. What's really tough is when I've zigged and zagged and the uke insists on punching over there somewhere in a straight line, rather than following me as would happen in a real fight!

Fortunately, folks like Khoury-sensei, Chojin-sensei, and Sofotasiou-sensei are willing to spend extra time with me working these concepts.

I know the Goju-ryu version of Tensho kata... I'm wondering if you and Doub-sempai are discussing a different form or something significantly similar? Goju-ryu no Tensho has elements of the weight shifting and attacks/parrys discussed, but my exposure to Tai Chi Ch'uan and it's names for the positions is rather, ahem, limited...

Another thing that I've noticed (and am actually waiting to get called on

) is that being 6'2" tall and having nearly all of my Kumite partners shorter than me, when doing the Kyu Kumite, the strikes seem to be invariably directed somewhere just about my Dantien... effectively making the complete wauke difficult to do at speed. Soooooo, sometimes when that happens, I don't do the wauke fully and end up doing a different parry instead. It depends on who I'm working with, but some people just can't seem to strike at my solar plexus. therefore, I figure it's just a chance for me to practice reaction and improv... while keeping the fundamentals of the kyu kumite intact.

and a final note:

I've been to Japan. At one point I spoke the language pretty darn well (now, I tend to limit it to the dojo and ordering sushi

)... I understand what the terms "Sensei", "San" and even "Sifu" and "Sabumnim" mean (I've also been known to speak some Chinese -Mandarin as well as Cantonese- and Korean in the past, but only a little bit). I also understand (probably more fully than most) the responsibility demanded of someone addressed as "Sempai" (as part of the Sempai-Kohai relationship). We're on a forum that discusses martial arts and I address those who are my Uechi-ryu direct teachers, those who are my teachers here on these forums, and those who are the most senior of seniors in the style(s) which I study or have studied as "Sensei", "Shihan" or "Soke". I address those who have taught me something from a Chinese style as "Sifu" and those who I've learned from who teach a Korean style as "Sabumnim". I address those who have more rank than I in a style that I've studied or who have more experience than I in martial arts in general as "Sempai". (Knowing full well that they will rarely understand the implications that I've placed on them for being honest, helpful and aware of me in taking the position of "Kohai") And, I generally address others using "San" as a term of respect. If we meet for a drink or get-together somewhere, I have no problem referring to people as Bill or John or Gary or Gene or Steve or Ian or Margaret or "hey you!"... But I try to view these forums as (generally) part of the dojo and/or mat. Keeping that in mind, it has always been and will always be my personal goal to give respect to everyone who deserves it on these forums. And I don't feel that it is misusing or misunderstanding the Japanese forms of address... Neither do I think it is pretentious to show respect for those who have worked damn hard, earned and deserve every ounce of respect I have to give. (And it is something that IMNSHO, they have earned.) If someone prefers not being addressed in such a manner, that is fine by me as well... I don't pretend to speak for anyone else, but I've attempted to explain why I use the terminology (and, I guess, perhaps why others do as well...)

Apologies for my long-winded nature...

jdoub · Post by **jdoub** » Wed May 23, 2001 12:11 am

Panther-san,

I am humbled by your statement and do not feel worthy of the honor.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Panther:
...I'm wondering if you and Doub-sempai are discussing a different form or something significantly similar?...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Sanchin Tensho kata that I learned, looks similar to the video clip I saw on the Uechi-Ryu web site of GEM-sensei. However, the version that I learned is done much slower using an intense breathing style and muscle compression at various points of the kata. The kata moves forward three paces in Sanchin-dachi doing hand and arm techniques with the right, the left, and then both. It then moves to the rear with a complex "blocking" sequence being done at each point.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Panther:
I also understand (probably more fully than most) the responsibility demanded of someone addressed as "Sempai" (as part of the Sempai-Kohai relationship)...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will try to live up to my end of the deal from here in California.

One thing to know about me with regard to your "long-windedness" Kohai, I do not expect you to change from your opinionated and obstinate ways.

It is part of why I enjoy your posts; they are from the heart. I have much to learn from you brother!!

I hope that you are well!!

Domo arigato.

John

------------------
John E. Doub, Jr.
Heiwa-Ryu Martial Arts Academy
http://www.heiwa-ryu.org/
"It is a way of life, not a sport."

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed May 23, 2001 5:16 am

Dale

I am just being overly cautious. You bring much experience to the forum, and I didn't want these side issues to distract us from the mission of learning. Your apology is appreciated, but not necessary.

I also am somewhat confused by the mix of languages and cultures. I find it much easier to address people the way you prefer, so you won't have any problems on my part.

Mr. Oyata sounds like a very wise man. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

most of us only think that we (myself included) are good martial artists with a high degree of knowledge after twenty or so years of training. Taika Oyata has said on numerous occasions that he only started to realize the true meaning of what he was doing after thirty years of training. We should all reconsider the level of knowledge that we have and keep an open beginners mind.

Amen! The more I investigate this body movement in Uechi sanseiryu, the more I find, and the less I realize I understood. It reminds me of countless experiences where I listened to a song anew that I heard as a teenager, and realize I never understood what the lyrics meant - even though I repeated them for years. I think the most difficult part of it all is realizing I need to start whole sections of a form from scratch. It's both fun and frustrating at the same time. I find much of my redemption in drills I create for my students that allow them (and me

) to "investigate" the movement as well as context of techniques. Funny...after a while I realize I start choreographing myself. But that's exactly when the learning cements for the students. Shuffle things around a little in the sequences and show the same body movement patterns; it makes the concepts much more clear.

- Bill

Dale Knepp · Post by **Dale Knepp** » Wed May 23, 2001 6:07 pm

Bill,

Thank you for being so kind in your estimation of my experience. I am constantly reminded of how little I have.

Thank you for your comments about my teacher.

It sounds like you are on the same track with your studies. Just last night, Taika
had us reviewing Seisan kata and refining movements and explaining application. I was astounded to see him connect kata movements he'd not explained previously (at least not in the same way)with applications he had showed variations of beforehand. The corrections make understanding application so much easier but not easier to do. One stills need to trained the body properly to allow for natural body movement to come out. We've been taught how to walk and use our bodies in certain ways that are not natural since childhood and it takes a lot to overcome the habits of a lifetime.

Taika has been having us start from scratch over and over again with the Naihanchi katas. Most of our training time involves relearning these katas in new ways and not trying to figure out how to use the movements. Occasionally, he will connect kata movement to correct body movement and we'll drill on that for a while. Then learn to apply the body movement to technique. Always emphasizing that actually moving the body correctly is primary to learning technique. Not learning new technique and then learning to move the body. The same patterns reemerge time and again, each time making it easier to adjust the body movement and positions to the situation. This develops natural body responses and enhances one's ability to protect self and others.

Dale

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Thu May 24, 2001 6:45 pm

Thank you Glasheen-sensei... Sometimes I worry that I'm being overly sensitive about such "dancing". Personally, I think the kumite are great drills/exercises, but not if I'm just going "step/wauke, step/wauke, punch/kiai, repeat"

I like the way you setup the Kanshiwa Bunkai... now that sounds interesting. (I have no doubt that I'd f, ummm, mess it up, but it sure sounds fun to try. I think I'll grab a few people and try it next time I get a chance...)

Dale Knepp · Post by **Dale Knepp** » Thu May 24, 2001 6:50 pm

Bill,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

And some of my greatest personal epiphanies occur when I step away from martial arts a bit and watch movement in other sports, watch what an untrained child will do when I say "punch this," or contemplate what a human does when surprised.

Some of Taika Oyata's greatest examples of how to move the body naturally have come those type of observations. He has many times used examples from sport performances of baseball and basketball, both professional and amateur. His daughter, Masami, is quite good on the basketball court. But also used examples from everyday life from watching his kids grow up. He studies beginning students as they haven't yet been spoiled by their instructor's "bad habits".

He always reminds us to look at ourselves and see what we are doing. "Is it comfitable for you?", he'll ask over and over. If not, he says to fix it ourselves and don't wait for him to tell you that it doesn't look right to him. Most of the time, we just don't observe ourselves enough to understand that we aren't getting it right.

We also develop different timing with the katas, grouping movements together before pausing, combining some movements together at the same time. Experiment with the kata and not do it the same way all of the time. But don't forget the basic way to do the kata. Many times as we start to change our timing and think it an advancement, we stop and call it good and continue to do it that way all the time and then forget the basic way as well. Advance timing for us has change more time than I could possibly remember. But by changing the timing you can gain new insight into how the body moves and occasionally how to apply it to technique.

You are right on target about the responsiblities of your training partner. If you working on a particular drill, the training partner must be aware of what is going on and not just punch and kick wherever. I had this problem last Tuesday with my partner as he was complaining that I wasn't doing what I was supposed to be doing. I explain to him that it was because he wasn't doing what he was supposed to be doing and so I had to adjust to the situation and do a variation off the same theme to compensate. Just like you would have to do in a real situation. You don't expect to say wait a minute you need to punch me this way so I can to this. So if the goal is to train on a particular aspect to develop body movement and timing, both partners need to help each other out and not go to fast or to slow as you're working together. Taika once compared this to a time when he was running with his son. If he ran to fast, his son would just sit down and not run with him. But if he ran just a little ahead of him, his son would try to catch up and work harded as he thought he might have a chance to beat his dad.

Later,

Dale

LenTesta · Post by **LenTesta** » Thu May 24, 2001 6:58 pm

I have to agree on the kumite drill being mostly the fault of the instruction.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

when they attack with a punch that finishes a foot away from your body. Still another is when they punch their arm to the side where they think you will block it (unconsciously being kind).

I like the catcher anaolgy Bill, however I use the pitcher mindframe to relate to the attacker in much the same way. I tell the beginners to imagine that they are throwing a ball at the catcher, and that the ball must hit the target which is the catchers mitt not the plate. When pitching, the distance to the plate is 60 feet and 6 inches. However, the pithcer must throw the ball about 63 feet to reach the catchers glove. I try to make the attacker understand that the defender may be 3 feet away when they begin the attack, so the punch must travel (with proper stepping distance of course) 4-5 feet to allow for the defenders potential backward movement.

Many times I see the attacker punch to the defenders side instead of to the center. Sometimes it is the fault of the defender however a good attacker will redirect if the defender moves to quickly. In kumites that have side steps, the defender often moves before the attacker's punch is within a foot from the target. The attacker of course does not follow the defenders movement and appears to be punching the space vacated by the defender. I make my intermediate and advanced studnets redirect the punch toward the sliding defender if the defender begins to move out of the way too soon. This type of drill helps the attacker "home in on the target" so to speak. If the defender waits for the very last moment before stepping and blocking, the attacker will be forced to continue the attack in the planned direction.

How many times have you seen students block so fast that they have completed the block before the attackers fist penetrates the space between the defenders arm? The defender should wait until the attackers fist gets into this area before attempting to move and block. Note to tournament fighters. Practicing this way will not be beneficial to point fighting as you will get tagged briefly and will lose the point. However the objective is to make the attacker think that their punch will make contact and maybe they will exert a little extra force which will cause them to be slightly off balance when you complete your block and uechi-ryu grab and counterattack. Unless the attacker is using a knife (or it is a point fight

)it does not matter to me if his fist partialy touches me when I am blocking.

BTW the block should be executed with the tesho uke or palm heel of the mirror side arm and not with the opposite side wauke.

------------------
Len

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu May 24, 2001 7:24 pm

Len

I thought you'd come back with the pitcher mindset...

In a tournament, they won't get a point from me if they punch but just miss or are fully extended when they contact. Yes...there are bad judges and that's life. Good ones understand the difference. And good fighters are so good that they can be spotted a few bad calls and still win (just like in any sport).

As for the blocking or moving too soon, you are right on target. This is variation on the same theme. And indeed the movement - in my opinion - is probably the most important element of the blocking.

If I read your parry/wauke comment correctly, we are on the same page, brother. We should talk... I keep thinking that so many people miss the whole point of what a wauke is for. I keep hearing comments about how and why we don't use it in sparring. And then I look at what people are doing in their prearranged kumite. And then I look at "what works" when people spar. And then I think about taking things the next step, where we grab onto the attacker and finish them off... I think more people would understand our style if they also took aikido, jiujitsu, or the other grappling arts. The parry is the block; the wauke is the bridge to the grappler's domain.

I've been quietly listening to the post-fight analyses of the New England tournament. Nothing I have heard so far bothers me (well...I'll bite my tongue on a few items...). We should pay attention to what we see in these fights and train with those observations in mind. If only everyone would keep trying to connect the end and beginning together... It's yet another example of focusing on the target.

Dale

I'm with you on the variation bit. At the risk of confusing the bloody heck out of my students, I will sometimes train a sequence in a kata three or four different ways, and even rearrange the techniques. I think that drives the point home. When people see the essence and understand how we can vary the movement and maintain those principles, then the real learning happens.

- Bill

Dale Knepp · Post by **Dale Knepp** » Thu May 24, 2001 10:11 pm

Bill,

Maybe one or two at a time, I hope not all in one session. Actually, I meant over a period of time (weeks maybe even months) to give someone the sense of how it goes one way and then try it another way. But, Taika Oyata has been known to change it three or more times in a single session. I know how mind boggling that can be and I think I would spare kyu rank students that headache.

Dale

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu May 24, 2001 10:34 pm

Dale

I hear you. I mostly do these as adjunct exercises before we do the forms, and then tell the students to settle on a particular way they want to do it. And yes...I spare the beginners of this mental torture.

On the other hand, what I find when I vary and mix the movements so much in the drills is that their choices of "style" tend to be quite mature (less stilted). Sometimes in an attempt to copy what they think is right, the students do things in ways that are a kind of caricature of yourself (pretty scary...). These caricatures get even more bizarre from generation to generation, until the movements get totally meaningless. The sooner students get that inner sense of what they are doing, the sooner you get something reasonable that you can work with. With this approach I find that (every once in a rare while) the really good athlete ends up doing something better than me, or in a totally unique way that makes perfect sense. In my mind that's the ultimate complement, and a perfect example of what your instructor calls "the living art."

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri May 25, 2001 5:49 am

Dale

What a wonderful experience you are having with your instructor and kata analysis. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

We've been taught how to walk and use our bodies in certain ways that are not natural since childhood and it takes a lot to overcome the habits of a lifetime.

When you step back and try to make sense of what the mindset gurus are trying to tell us about real confrontations, you constantly hear this theme of regression to certain patterns of movement and action. All the great instructors I know of tell me they are spending so much time un-teaching the arbitrary, stilted stuff they or other taught in the past in favor of more natural movement. And some of my greatest personal epiphanies occur when I step away from martial arts a bit and watch movement in other sports, watch what an untrained child will do when I say "punch this," or contemplate what a human does when surprised. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Always emphasizing that actually moving the body correctly is primary to learning technique.

Amen! We are reading from the same hymnal. Wish we could be working on Uechi sanseiryu together...

Panther

Oh wise one with the humble nature...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Another thing that I've noticed (and am actually waiting to get called on ) is that being 6'2" tall and having nearly all of my Kumite partners shorter than me, when doing the Kyu Kumite, the strikes seem to be invariably directed somewhere just about my Dantien... effectively making the complete wauke difficult to do at speed.

It isn't the fault of the exercise or of you, Panther, it is the fault of the training partner. Your partner is displaying a total lack of understanding of his/her role and mindset. A solar plexus punch does not mean a punch to one's own solar plexus. One is not attacking oneself. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Be like the tea in the teacup.

And there is no reason for you to attempt a middle-area block on a low technique. With time you will naturally do the right block in prearranged exercises when your partner makes such obvious errors. Then you can set them straight later. Believe me - you will need to. I've taught these exercises to many a large, dangerous white belt. Doing the appropriate action to an errant technique in spite of what they are supposed to be doing is necessary for self preservation

and actually a sign that your years of training are beginning to sink in.

I intentionally create mismatches when doing a multi-partner exercise like kanshiwa bunkai, and challenge my students to attack in the appropriate fashion to each partner. For example, I have made a person face my 315 pound Tony, my 40 pound son, and someone average height and fast as simultaneous partners in kanshiwa bunkai. In juggling, this is the equivalent of simultaneously handling a bowling ball, machete, and torch. It's a great display of instantaneous and precise response to environment. I will stop the exercise if the person in the middle doesn't "touch contact" my son (afraid he might hurt him after just having blocked Mr. Tony), or does a "middle punch" to his nose. I will stop the exercise if they similarly do a "middle punch" to the big guy's dan tien. And then of course they have to deal with the difference between speed, power, and a change of pace.

The real learning in the prearranged exercises happens when you mix it up with people who aren't your size, weight, or speed, and can properly adjust. Our kata and our fighting skills mean nothing if we remain egocentric. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

What's really tough is when I've zigged and zagged and the uke insists on punching over there somewhere in a straight line, rather than following me as would happen in a real fight!

I hear you. Another, Panther, is when they attack with a punch that finishes a foot away from your body. Still another is when they punch their arm to the side where they think you will block it (unconsciously being kind). And yet another is when they "kick your block." This is another learning opportunity. What I do in these situations, Panther, is to stop and drop my arms to my side just when they are attacking somewhere where my target isn't. The ridiculous-looking end result really drives the point home. Once again, the focus of the attacker should always be on the target - period. I remind my people that the attacker should be like the catcher in baseball that focuses on catching the ball (which goes to various places) in spite of the fact that there's someone in front of him trying to swat at it. Focus on the target, focus on the target, focus on the target...

Great points, Panther. People complain a lot about "these useless prearranged kumite." Nine times out of ten, I find the problem rests with the way they are training, and not with the training tool per se.

- Bill