can someone help

pj · Post by pj » Thu May 31, 2001 3:01 am

I have two small boys taking karate and they're practicing their form (key moon young) spelling??? and they do it differently! I'm not sure which one is right (each one insists that HE is) and I hate for them to practice incorrectly....can I find instructions anywhere on the web??? I suppose if I knew how to spell it, that would help

Thanks!
pj

billmok · Post by **billmok** » Thu May 31, 2001 3:35 am

Sounds like Tae Kwon Do's Ki Bon Hyung, a text only description can be found in this website: http://ryanshroyer.tripod.com

Hope this might help.

Bill

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"Learning is a never ending process. Shodan is, as it really means, the beginning of serious learning." by Seigo TADA, founder of Seigokan (1922-1997)

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu May 31, 2001 2:08 pm

Thanks for the key find, Bill!

I might add, pj, that there may be subtle differences in the way one practices even the most basic forms from school to school. Thus the excellent find of a text reference on a web may still lead you to a slight variation off your kids' instruction. But you are right to want to settle on some standard for students so basic. It is not likely that your kids' instructor taught a beginner form differently to two individuals from the same family.

Procedural integrity of a form is a first step. Once that is down, the next step to attend to is how the individual movements are done. That part takes a lifetime, and is the raison d’être for all of us who spend a lifetime doing this.

As a parent watching, a good rule of thumb is that if it looks precise, powerful, and flows well, then it is likely being done well. One should also consider all the basic body mechanics that one would attend to in any sport activity.

Good luck, and come visit us again!

- Bill

student · Post by **student** » Thu May 31, 2001 6:54 pm

Do you go to class with them and watch?

You might ask the instructor to watch each of them and tell you who is doing it right, although that might cause sibling conflicts that we don't want to get into.

Ki Bon Hyung means Basic Form. Tae Kwon Do is no more monolithic in approach than any other martial art, and what one school considers the movements for its basic form may differ greatly from another school's; thus, finding a text or picture text to Ki Bon Hyung may not necessarily be helpful to you. The best place to ask what the accurate supplemental texts are for your children's schools are the instructors at your children's schools. They should welcome real interest.

student

Scott Danziger · Post by **Scott Danziger** » Fri Jun 01, 2001 1:15 am

I don't know if this will help, but I found Ki Bon Hyung on a website with streaming video on it.

It's a Hapkido site though so I don't know if it's the same Ki Bon Hyung form.

The site is http://www.ironcrane.com/html/hyunghkd.html.

[This message has been edited by Scott Danziger (edited May 31, 2001).]

pj · Post by pj » Fri Jun 01, 2001 5:40 am

Thanks to both Bills!

I really appreciate your help (and so do my boys).

pj

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Mon Jun 04, 2001 1:15 am

The person who performed for the clips obviously has good motorr skills and body mechanics and appears to have practiced a lot.

Thanks Scott.

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited June 03, 2001).]

Frownfork · Post by **Frownfork** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 2:34 pm

Seriously, I've never realised about the similarities in Taekwondo and Shotokan style. Does anyone have any info about their relations?

After all these years, I only knew about Taekwondo and it's history back in old Korea... nothing about the Japanese influences (except for General Choi, the founder who studied Karate before) however, there aren't any patterns that I know of, until I found that site on the Pyong An style of forms (which is, very identical of that of Shotokan).

Greetings

Khen

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 2:42 pm

Khen

The common link is the beginning kata. Look at the introductory form in Shorin ryu, Shotokan, and Taequondo (turn, block, step, punch...). They are virtually identical with only minor variations. I believe Shorin Ryu or its antecedent was the origin of the beginning form for all these styles.

Sorry...I don't have the names of the various forms for the various styles that identify this basic kata, but I've seen an article comparing them. I've also judged many a white belt at tournaments doing this form. While I've never been taught it, I could probably get up and do the thing myself by now. Most styles of this genre tend to agree about the fundamentals of stance, blocking, thrusting, and movement.

- Bill

Frownfork · Post by **Frownfork** » Wed Jun 20, 2001 2:54 pm

Well thank you Bill, that really open things up. If you still have any interesting facts or further info, please email them to me at my email address : khen_hm@yahoo.com or just post em' up. I'll be more than happy to learn more about them.

Thanks again,
Khen

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http://www.frownfork.de

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 12:44 am

General Choi learned his Shotokan in Manchuria as a laborer of the Japanese during the Japanese occupation of Korea. Shotokan forms are definitely the forerunner of TKD. However, names of the forms adopted by General Choi are Korean names. The kicks, which are the substance of TKD, are definitely NOT Japanese.

General Choi is also still alive, and when I saw him about 5 years ago he was still doing flying kicks -- in his 80s.

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

billmok · Post by **billmok** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 5:06 am

When I took up Tae Kwon Do in 1965 under Kim Bok Man of Korea, the hyong(forms) were almost identical to Shotokan, maybe because "Father of TKD" General Choi was a 2nd dan in Shotokan before WW2. The Korean terms, if translated to Chinese, were exactly as the Japanese kanji terms.

My memory might have failed me after so many years, please correct me if I am wrong.

Bill

billmok · Post by **billmok** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 11:17 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Allen M.:
However, names of the forms adopted by General Choi are Korean names. The kicks, which are the substance of TKD, are definitely NOT Japanese.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The names may have been written in Hangul, but to me, they sound very much the same as the "Koreanising" of the Japanese Kanji. The following website is a good reference on this subject.
http://ryanshroyer.tripod.com/faq/why_shotokan.html

[This message has been edited by billmok (edited June 21, 2001).]

billmok · Post by **billmok** » Thu Jun 21, 2001 11:23 am

BTW, the kicks that was taught back in 1965 by Kim Bok Man were basically karate kicks.

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Fri Jun 22, 2001 2:05 am

I don't know what Kim Bok Man taught.

That particular page you directed me to is misleading, using kernels of truth and leaning as if the author is trying to put the Koreans/Korean Martial Arts down.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Despite what many would have you believe, Tae Kwon Do has very strong roots extending into the Japanese martial arts.
The most notable of these, primarily because its tradition still continues today, is Shotokan Karate. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't know what "many would have you believe" but definitely NOT those from TKD. Additionally, any ITF website worth it's salt points to the
origin(s) of Tae Kwon do, and accurately.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Those studying what Korean TKD stylists call the "Pyong-An" patterns, will either be intrigued or alarmed to discover that
they are exactly the same patterns practiced in Shotokan karate. In Japanese they are called "Heian".
Tae Kwon Do black belts who, as part of their traditional curriculum, studied patterns called Bal-Sek, Chul-Gi, or Kong-San-Koon
would do well to know that these patterns are also traditional Shotokan forms with the Japanese names Bassai, Tekki,
and Kanku, respectfully. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I've done these hyungs as a Tang Soo Do and shotokan student, but
not in Tae Kwon Do. Shotokan karate is practiced very different than Taekwondo. Their emphasis is entirely different.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Even the WTF-recognized Palgwe patterns have Japanese origins.
If you examine the Pyong-An (Heian) forms, you will see many of the movement sequences are copied directly into the Palgwe patterns.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Palgwe patterns have some very interesting good fighting sequences in them.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>When the WTF began its rise to prominence in Korea,
it sought a way of purging the Japanese influences from its homeland's martial art. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can disagree quite healthily. WTF
had quite a different adgenda, but it is not worth my time and effort to get into it. One needs to research
what WTF is, and why it displaced ITF. One needs to learn what the Kukiwon is and its inner workings as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

The reasons for this are not officially documented in any official charter or statement.

Get ahold of the charter of the Kukiwon and have it translated for you.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>This may partially explain the WTF's motivations.
However, there were a number of other internal and external pressures to "purify" Tae Kwon Do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>"Purify." Right! It was called in-fighting.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

As part of this response, the WTF created and promulgated a new series of patterns called the "Taegeuk".

I was teaching TKD when
they pulled that one. I had to learn all the new forms in about 2 months so I could still teach. That sucked. There were a number of reasons given
for jumping the kata ship like that, but basically the new forms were a watered down version of the Pal Gwe forms. Much LESS combat
oriented and much MORE tournament oriented and prettier as well as much LESS useful on the street.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> the International Taekwondo Federation (ITF) had already begun its spread across the globe,
bringing Tae Kwon Do to many other parts of the world. Their patterns (the Chon-Ji pattern set) were also heavily
influenced by the Japanese styles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That guy simply cannot quit writing that TKD was Japanese influenced, can he!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The ITF, however, was disowned (and damned) by the WTF, who is the official government body
in charge of Tae Kwon Do's development. (If you're interested in the history of the ITF, follow this link:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I followed the links and I could feel the conflict in the writings. However, one of those links contains the first listing of all the
Kwans in one place. Out of them, MOO DUK KWAN was my first TKS, and CHUNG DO KWAN is rather an elitest group.

To all this, as a long-term TKD practitioner, I say so what. All my TKD collegues also used to say "so what" too. It's no big deal

The names of the forms. This is what I wrote: "However, names of the forms adopted by General Choi are Korean names."
From a good TKD link this is what I found, and it is well published as such in Gen Choi's books:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Taekwon-Do has twenty-four unique patterns developed by General Choi. Reason being is that when you consider eternity, the life time of one person, perhaps one hundred years; is only a day. Therefore the twenty-four patterns represent twenty-four hours of the day, or the lifetime of General Choi, his legacy to the human race.

The first of these patterns is named "Chon-ji" which means "heaven and earth". It is interpreted in the orient as the creation of the universe and the beginning of human history; therefore, it is the pattern practiced by the beginner. The next pattern is called "Dan-Gun". and as any Korean is well aware, Dan-Gun is the legendary founder of Korea. The next pattern is called "Do-San". Do-San is the pseudonym of the patriot Ahn Chang-ho, (1876-1938), who devoted his entire life to the education of Korea and its independence movement. The next patterns are Won-Hyo", a noted monk, and 'Yol-Gok", a great philosopher. Joong-Gun, the next pattern, was named after the patriot Ahn-Joong Gun. The 32 movements in this pattern represent his age when he was executed in Liu Shung prison in 1910. Subsequent patterns are Tae-Gae, Hwa-Rang and Choong-Moo, the name given to Admiral Yi Soon-Sin. The final pattern is called "Tong-IL". Tong-IL denotes the reunification of Korea, which is General Choi's lifetime wish. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, I'm tired and have to go to bed for an early start in the AM, but if you will post the forms you mention in Hangul I will have them translated for you, word by word, into English for your research and personal edification.

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera