Hi Bill,
Very interesting observations.
In many cases the past is simply whatever our instructor passed on to us. No doubt change is the eternal constant, and I do suspect the jazz element may have had its place in Chinese and Okinawan arts. Many of the seniors were reportd to change their teachings at different times.
Unfortunately, in most cases no template was passed how to deal with change. Perhaps that was just a beginners tool to teach the basics of a system. Lets consider the potential issues regarding change.
1. Modifying forms to meet the individuals needs.
2. Modifying forms to meet specific defenses and responses for the practioner.
3. Modifying forms to meet one's aging requirements.
4. Using forms as loose templates so they all can cover a wide range of environmental conditions (unstable landscapes, darkness, rain or snow). Of course these arts didn't originate in a dojo.
[I'm not considering stylistic change for competition.]
That gives some survey of possible conditions. As an instructor do we address all of them, some of them, or none?
The injection of jazz, or perhaps the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle, IMVHO requires very specific guidance for the individual.
I understand creating new drills for specific needs, and have done so on occassion myself. But I'm unsure whether they would meet the criteria of what I consider kata.
On the other hand jazz has many components. Where one might need to change the movements for new needs, another might change the mental insertion into an attack, to meet those same needs. Or perhaps understand the sub-components of the formal structure in greater detail, turning a technique into multiple components, each of which contain different applications.
I won't simply state one approach is better or worse than another. As in most knowledge, it really depends on the skill of the practionier. It also most likely depends on those skills our instructors passed to us too.
But I sort of come down on the side of trying to keep the form constant, and jazzing the application.
On the other hand, I've had occasion to study such a vast number of forms, I feel comfortable in choosing to add something else from my storehouse for my students repetoire instead of simply trying to draft something new.
There are so many differing issues to consider.
Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
Changing The Katas
Moderator: Available
-
Guest
Changing The Katas
This is an excellent thread! Thank you all.
I will never stop learning from my original kata.
When kata is practiced in a different manner with a different focus new things continue to be discovered. I learn more from Sanchin today than I learned from it with my Sensei 23years ago. The deeper we look the more we find.
I also learn many elements of my style by watching the applications of other styles.Watching other styles seems to take me back to my own kata to discover yet another application missed on the first visit.
I view creating one's personnel kata as a valuable exploration of ones growth on the journey. These new kata are learning tools with out them might not find some of the elements buried in the core kata.
Personnel kata are tools of discovery. I see them as valuable learning resources. I do not think they should be passed on. They may however be recommended as a tool for students to explore on there own time. This seems to get the wheels turning, Some times your have to go outside to see inside.
Laird
[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited June 18, 2001).]
I will never stop learning from my original kata.
When kata is practiced in a different manner with a different focus new things continue to be discovered. I learn more from Sanchin today than I learned from it with my Sensei 23years ago. The deeper we look the more we find.
I also learn many elements of my style by watching the applications of other styles.Watching other styles seems to take me back to my own kata to discover yet another application missed on the first visit.
I view creating one's personnel kata as a valuable exploration of ones growth on the journey. These new kata are learning tools with out them might not find some of the elements buried in the core kata.
Personnel kata are tools of discovery. I see them as valuable learning resources. I do not think they should be passed on. They may however be recommended as a tool for students to explore on there own time. This seems to get the wheels turning, Some times your have to go outside to see inside.
Laird
[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited June 18, 2001).]
Changing The Katas
Great thread.
One question: how do you know what you're studying is even an original anyway? Well, it isn't. Everything has the flavor of the people it passed through. Watch the tapes of the tomoyose dojo to see how uechi has changed dramatically since the 60's.
Question #2: what are you preserving? If the kata changes all the time, slowly, but surely, can you preserve it by freeze-framing it? "It" must be changing to be what it is.
I do feel I learn tons by trying to change things to suit me or improve them, most often to reallize what I created was already there or wasn't as good in what I made.
My approach: Do it as you have been taught AND branch out. Keep both. I hate the way most uechi people do their uraken so I have my own way. And I retain the former way to teach and to preserve the variations and richness of what I was taught.
One question: how do you know what you're studying is even an original anyway? Well, it isn't. Everything has the flavor of the people it passed through. Watch the tapes of the tomoyose dojo to see how uechi has changed dramatically since the 60's.
Question #2: what are you preserving? If the kata changes all the time, slowly, but surely, can you preserve it by freeze-framing it? "It" must be changing to be what it is.
I do feel I learn tons by trying to change things to suit me or improve them, most often to reallize what I created was already there or wasn't as good in what I made.
My approach: Do it as you have been taught AND branch out. Keep both. I hate the way most uechi people do their uraken so I have my own way. And I retain the former way to teach and to preserve the variations and richness of what I was taught.
Changing The Katas
Some interesting points about changing kata. What I see is complete health maintainence with the breath as the life force.
Movement is done co-ordinating with maridians and breath to massage the internal organs for health. After years of practising the same movement and haveing that deep understanding or not understanding the secrets that lie within the movements. Knowing when to let go of the traditional and accept your own is just another step in the right direction towards enlightenment.
Forms are a way to express ourselves through our thoughts, emotions, expressions through our body, as a whole being.
Without the mind understanding the body to reach a spiritual selves we would wither and die within a short time. IMHO...
[This message has been edited by crazycat (edited June 19, 2001).]
Movement is done co-ordinating with maridians and breath to massage the internal organs for health. After years of practising the same movement and haveing that deep understanding or not understanding the secrets that lie within the movements. Knowing when to let go of the traditional and accept your own is just another step in the right direction towards enlightenment.
Forms are a way to express ourselves through our thoughts, emotions, expressions through our body, as a whole being.
Without the mind understanding the body to reach a spiritual selves we would wither and die within a short time. IMHO...
[This message has been edited by crazycat (edited June 19, 2001).]
Changing The Katas
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hwarang:
And you also have a point implying that my invented kata might be worthless from the martial aspect. However, another reason that I made up my own is that I felt the same way about the original katas. After years of practicing them over and over I got the feeling that they weren't doing me any good, that I was not making major progress. On the contrary I think my made up kata might be "better" than the originals because I've stripped out the "best" techniques from 5 or more katas and condensed them into one short kata. It always bothered me that there might be just one seemingly good technique in a kata and then a whole series of repeditive elementary blocks and kicks for the remainder of the form, which seemed to me just "useless" "busy work." Why bother with all of that "useless" stuff?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
hwarang, There is very little "useless" information in a kata. I used to get bored with my katas until I started to learn what they really mean. There are no blocks in kata. So therefore, there is so much information to be learned.
Becky
And you also have a point implying that my invented kata might be worthless from the martial aspect. However, another reason that I made up my own is that I felt the same way about the original katas. After years of practicing them over and over I got the feeling that they weren't doing me any good, that I was not making major progress. On the contrary I think my made up kata might be "better" than the originals because I've stripped out the "best" techniques from 5 or more katas and condensed them into one short kata. It always bothered me that there might be just one seemingly good technique in a kata and then a whole series of repeditive elementary blocks and kicks for the remainder of the form, which seemed to me just "useless" "busy work." Why bother with all of that "useless" stuff?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
hwarang, There is very little "useless" information in a kata. I used to get bored with my katas until I started to learn what they really mean. There are no blocks in kata. So therefore, there is so much information to be learned.
Becky
Changing The Katas
In the current issue of Kung Fu Qigong Magazine (July/Aug 2001) there is an interesting article that relates to this topic of changing katas. On p. 33, the 34th generation Shaolin monk, Shi Guolin, demonstrates the first 19 movements of the Xiao Luohan form. Of course, this form could be done, as is, with much profit to the practitioner, but to me this is a form that fairly cries out for adaptation. And this gets back to why the Okinawans changed the Shaolin forms instead of just doing them as is. What proud Okinawan farmer worthy of the name would ever be caught taking such a deep crouching stance as in the series 4b to 4cr? This is a form that only a Shaolin monk could love, in its present form.
Yet there seems to be much in this form to recommend it. For example, the 'flying leap and ground slap' in the series 4a to 4b is very interesting. I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like this before. It seems vaguely reminiscent of some of the old Polynesian martial arts like Lua. And the 'covering up then opening up' series in 6a to 6b, I've also never seen before.
Yet there seems to be much in this form to recommend it. For example, the 'flying leap and ground slap' in the series 4a to 4b is very interesting. I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like this before. It seems vaguely reminiscent of some of the old Polynesian martial arts like Lua. And the 'covering up then opening up' series in 6a to 6b, I've also never seen before.
Changing The Katas
Hi Hawrang,
Well I'm not an Okinawan farmer, and while I don't believe the form you're referring to in the magazine was a source for Okinawan karate, I can attest the validity of the movement.
In the Mantis Form Demonstrated in this issue, and the previous one, the same movement is used (my instrutor referred to the form as Sip Sau Jing from his background). I see the movement as jumping outside a strike, grabbing the arm, and dropping down into a deep stance to pull them off balance, as the lead foot strikes out in to their back leg.
Actually the same movement is utilized in Yang Tai Chi Chaun's The Snake Creeps Down section.
Although my art is Isshinryu, in my studies in Kung Fu with Ernie Rothrock, I learnt and executed those stances as shown. <of course today age and arthritis slow me down quite a bit and I no longer get as deep but one pays the piper as age occurs, too>.
If you take the time to learn something correctly, there is no reason to change it as the original can work quite fine too.
Of course as always, this is just based on experience trying to get better for several decades in this.
Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
Well I'm not an Okinawan farmer, and while I don't believe the form you're referring to in the magazine was a source for Okinawan karate, I can attest the validity of the movement.
In the Mantis Form Demonstrated in this issue, and the previous one, the same movement is used (my instrutor referred to the form as Sip Sau Jing from his background). I see the movement as jumping outside a strike, grabbing the arm, and dropping down into a deep stance to pull them off balance, as the lead foot strikes out in to their back leg.
Actually the same movement is utilized in Yang Tai Chi Chaun's The Snake Creeps Down section.
Although my art is Isshinryu, in my studies in Kung Fu with Ernie Rothrock, I learnt and executed those stances as shown. <of course today age and arthritis slow me down quite a bit and I no longer get as deep but one pays the piper as age occurs, too>.
If you take the time to learn something correctly, there is no reason to change it as the original can work quite fine too.
Of course as always, this is just based on experience trying to get better for several decades in this.
Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
Changing The Katas
Hey, Victor. The 'flying leap and ground slap' series of movements, I interpret quite differently. Rather than a specific throwing application I see this as more of a physical conditioning and monotony-breaking series. Without this the form is as plain as rice gruel. So in addition to its obvious benefit in training the student in leaping during a fight (the ground slap is to break the landing, like in judo), this also has the purpose of jazzing up an otherwise pedestrian sequence (you see this often in other arts, like music). That's why it's placed at the beginning of the form, to perk the student up, so to speak, before he gets into the serious and monotonous stuff in the rest of the form. Even monks need a change of pace once in a while. You see the same thing in the 'flying double kick' in the advanced karate katas. This is more for physical training and theatrics (this is an art, after all) than for actual use in a fight.
Changing The Katas
again Hawrang,
I can understand you interpret this section as a metaphor to "jazz up" training. On the other hand, if you actually trained in those systems, you find your instructor has a specific use for the technique.
While my brief training is not necessarily indicative of all Chinese 'kung fu' systems, as the overview I studied with Mr. Rothrock I did find that this Stance was used a great deal.
These practices first developed as a martial art. Movements were not created to 'look good' or to make the practioner 'feel better' during the performance.
I believe you should try and find qualified instruction and get some first hand experience on which to base judgements.
The vast range of effective martial arts often makes it incomprehensible how something outside of one's own training can ever be effective. On the other hand, that is what makes all of this so fascinating.
Victor Smith
I can understand you interpret this section as a metaphor to "jazz up" training. On the other hand, if you actually trained in those systems, you find your instructor has a specific use for the technique.
While my brief training is not necessarily indicative of all Chinese 'kung fu' systems, as the overview I studied with Mr. Rothrock I did find that this Stance was used a great deal.
These practices first developed as a martial art. Movements were not created to 'look good' or to make the practioner 'feel better' during the performance.
I believe you should try and find qualified instruction and get some first hand experience on which to base judgements.
The vast range of effective martial arts often makes it incomprehensible how something outside of one's own training can ever be effective. On the other hand, that is what makes all of this so fascinating.
Victor Smith
Changing The Katas
Victor, I have to disagree with you. I think after a certain amount of experience, say 20 yrs., a karate man can just look at a eequence in a magazine and know what's going on. I haven't actually tried that flying leap and ground slap, but from the 4a frame it looks like he's doing an all out jump for height and distance. You see the same body position in Olympic long jumpers, where they kind of jacknife their bodies in the air in order to get maximum height and distance. You have a similar thing in the flying double kick in the advanced karate katas. That first "kick" is not really a kick but more a means to increase height and distance by a kind of recoil effect. In fact the whole sequence is more of a leap than a kick. I think it was originally intended as training for jumping over opponents in a fight.
And I believe there is a lot of extaneous "flash" in the katas, put in to break monotony or make a kata "look better." This is art as well as self defence, and if something does not look good or please people in some way people eventually won't do it. For example, the three Tekki or Naihanshi katas are pretty mundane as far as katas go. That's why I think the first movement of the 3rd Tekki is usually an uncharacteristic advanced move not in the horse stance. This in my view is strictly to break the monotony. I think to have all three Tekkis done entirely in the horse stance would be too much of the same thing. This little flourish at the start of the 3rd Tekki has kept them vibrant after all these years.
And I believe there is a lot of extaneous "flash" in the katas, put in to break monotony or make a kata "look better." This is art as well as self defence, and if something does not look good or please people in some way people eventually won't do it. For example, the three Tekki or Naihanshi katas are pretty mundane as far as katas go. That's why I think the first movement of the 3rd Tekki is usually an uncharacteristic advanced move not in the horse stance. This in my view is strictly to break the monotony. I think to have all three Tekkis done entirely in the horse stance would be too much of the same thing. This little flourish at the start of the 3rd Tekki has kept them vibrant after all these years.
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Changing The Katas
I see a very interesting point/topic evolving here. Consider the following.
a) When we are REALLY terrified, we tend to digress to the most simple movements, and things we have done ad nauseum.
b) Any student of the obvious knows that most people will not practice things ad nauseum because most people aren't that disciplined.
Given a and b, we know that most people will not do what it takes to prepare for a serious physical and/or mental challenge.
Good instructors and good students of the art of learning know that there is an art to getting the right information in the right part of the brain.
* Some of this is age related. Using language as an example, kids learn languages easier than adults do because they use a different part of the brain to learn.
* Some of this is context related. Using language as an example, it's easier to learn a language by immersion in the culture.
* Some of this is medium related. Using language as an example, it's easier to learn a language when done in conjunction with acting or music.
So...is it not relevant to consider clever ways to teach what needs to be taught? What does it matter which door the information entered as long as it is available when we need it? What does it matter that a form contains all the right information if we can't get it in the right place of peoples' brains when they need it most (and I'm not talking about that one student out of 10,000 that you needed to go through before you got your showcase candidate). And haven't we begun to learn enough about the mind and stress and confrontation to appreciate this?
Food for thought.
- Bill
a) When we are REALLY terrified, we tend to digress to the most simple movements, and things we have done ad nauseum.
b) Any student of the obvious knows that most people will not practice things ad nauseum because most people aren't that disciplined.
Given a and b, we know that most people will not do what it takes to prepare for a serious physical and/or mental challenge.
Good instructors and good students of the art of learning know that there is an art to getting the right information in the right part of the brain.
* Some of this is age related. Using language as an example, kids learn languages easier than adults do because they use a different part of the brain to learn.
* Some of this is context related. Using language as an example, it's easier to learn a language by immersion in the culture.
* Some of this is medium related. Using language as an example, it's easier to learn a language when done in conjunction with acting or music.
So...is it not relevant to consider clever ways to teach what needs to be taught? What does it matter which door the information entered as long as it is available when we need it? What does it matter that a form contains all the right information if we can't get it in the right place of peoples' brains when they need it most (and I'm not talking about that one student out of 10,000 that you needed to go through before you got your showcase candidate). And haven't we begun to learn enough about the mind and stress and confrontation to appreciate this?
Food for thought.
- Bill
Changing The Katas
A inneresting discussion.
Kata. How things are done.
'There are no blocks in kata."Who sez? The creators of the kata? Or someone who thinks that is true but doesn't really know?
If there are no blocks in kata, how do you avoid being hit?
You got to block.
As to the secrets of kata. There are many not all or even the most important being techniques.
A technique is only as good as the person doing it.
Kata is training for doing the techniques, movements and body mechanics of your art, better.
Tekki/Naihanchi train hips, legs, footwork, kicks( yes they do), trips, reaps, hooks, and strikes with legs.Also they train arms, hands, covering the vital areas of the body,and striking, locking counterlocking, throwing and counterthrowing, blocking, and ther things.
The information they contain is important but not all important, as the power they give to those who train them, and the agility, the strength, and speed s also important.
The most important thing Naihanchi trains is fullbbody co ordination of technques using the entire body with effective mechanics.
When you take the weight off one leg,what happens to the hands striking on that side?
The positions in which during ata one protects and covers the vital points constitute the blocks, literally in kata. The receiving or uke waza techniques in kata, which are mistranslated blocks,constitute the entries to or the actual goshinjutsu or life protection techniques contained therein.
How do I know that? My teacher taught me that way, and he studied on Okinawa.Also the Chinese manuals show this to be so.Also the explanations some of the Chinese masters who actually created their katas, like Yang Cheng Fu of Yang style Tai Ji Quan,were written by them in books and explanations given, in 1930, with photos accompanying.Gess what-blocks exist, s in Fair Maiden Plays at Shuttles, but accompannying usually, simultaneous counters.
No mysteries there. I have however ever ever seen any Okinawan master state that 'there are no blocks in kata.'
If that's so, produce written evidence from someone who created Okinawan katas.
Funakoshi who created some simplified nes does state that first, you block and then counter, separately, then in rapid smooth sucession, then simulataneously.
It is very dangerous to say to people as though it were fact, that kata contain no blocking techniques. There are over one hundred kata from Okinawa, and thousands from China.
Some are almost all blocking, like Tensho of Goju ryu. Others contain repeated blcok counter techniques like Suparinpei from the same style.
It has been said by masters that blocking and striking is one, that blocks, steps, turns and counters are all done as one move. This is so, because they say so..
But no blocks in kata? Hardly.Kata would be useless in actual combat if this were so.
Blocks are of several kinds. Covering vital points is one, these are staic or mobile guards.
Soft blocking or deflecting/redrecting is another.
Parrying as with a slap, is yet another.
Catching or hooking is another.
Wrapping and scooping blocks are two others.
Hard blocks are strikes to nerves or to bnes and muscles and nerves, on the limbs, to break as well as deflect.
Funakoshi lists thriteeen categories of blocking or receiving( uke) waza in the Kyoan, and to say there are none in kata when these all come from kata, is foolish.
Incidentally, studyuing tuite against a relaxed, cooperating opponent and doing point attacks to same is one thing, using it in a sparring match another, and in a fight or self defense, yet another.It is not easy, but interception, must setup the contact, with can then unbalance or lock the opponent who can then be struck.
Or the opponent is caught with the intercept and simultanously locked.
Or struck on the intercept and stunned with a warning strike, atemi jutsu as Taika Oyata calls this.
Or other things can be done.But the way its done in demos and the way its really done are two different things.
Can I do it?Yes I can.
Can I do it on the move? Yes.
Can I do it on a resisting opponent? Yes.
If you can't, you don't yet understand enough.Kata can teach us but we need a good teacher to teach us kata, analysis, and applications for actual usage to protect our own and others lives.
Doing kata well and repeating it thousands of times is indeed good foundation training.
Trying to break specific techniques out of kata,and repeat them in actual use, is difficult to impossible without good training done correctly.
Basics, kata, techniques, and setups/defenses/stepping,avoiding, evading,unbalancing, all must enter into our kata training and partner training.
Kata ko's that don't work in a fight , don't need to be practiced.
Which do and which don't? That where practice comes in.
Changing katas can be done by anyone who understands all of the above, thoroughly.
Real Chinese and Okinawan katas are done many different ways by the practitioners anyway, as Bill points out, and are taught that way by many teachers.
Regards,
John
Regards,
John
Kata. How things are done.
'There are no blocks in kata."Who sez? The creators of the kata? Or someone who thinks that is true but doesn't really know?
If there are no blocks in kata, how do you avoid being hit?
You got to block.
As to the secrets of kata. There are many not all or even the most important being techniques.
A technique is only as good as the person doing it.
Kata is training for doing the techniques, movements and body mechanics of your art, better.
Tekki/Naihanchi train hips, legs, footwork, kicks( yes they do), trips, reaps, hooks, and strikes with legs.Also they train arms, hands, covering the vital areas of the body,and striking, locking counterlocking, throwing and counterthrowing, blocking, and ther things.
The information they contain is important but not all important, as the power they give to those who train them, and the agility, the strength, and speed s also important.
The most important thing Naihanchi trains is fullbbody co ordination of technques using the entire body with effective mechanics.
When you take the weight off one leg,what happens to the hands striking on that side?
The positions in which during ata one protects and covers the vital points constitute the blocks, literally in kata. The receiving or uke waza techniques in kata, which are mistranslated blocks,constitute the entries to or the actual goshinjutsu or life protection techniques contained therein.
How do I know that? My teacher taught me that way, and he studied on Okinawa.Also the Chinese manuals show this to be so.Also the explanations some of the Chinese masters who actually created their katas, like Yang Cheng Fu of Yang style Tai Ji Quan,were written by them in books and explanations given, in 1930, with photos accompanying.Gess what-blocks exist, s in Fair Maiden Plays at Shuttles, but accompannying usually, simultaneous counters.
No mysteries there. I have however ever ever seen any Okinawan master state that 'there are no blocks in kata.'
If that's so, produce written evidence from someone who created Okinawan katas.
Funakoshi who created some simplified nes does state that first, you block and then counter, separately, then in rapid smooth sucession, then simulataneously.
It is very dangerous to say to people as though it were fact, that kata contain no blocking techniques. There are over one hundred kata from Okinawa, and thousands from China.
Some are almost all blocking, like Tensho of Goju ryu. Others contain repeated blcok counter techniques like Suparinpei from the same style.
It has been said by masters that blocking and striking is one, that blocks, steps, turns and counters are all done as one move. This is so, because they say so..
But no blocks in kata? Hardly.Kata would be useless in actual combat if this were so.
Blocks are of several kinds. Covering vital points is one, these are staic or mobile guards.
Soft blocking or deflecting/redrecting is another.
Parrying as with a slap, is yet another.
Catching or hooking is another.
Wrapping and scooping blocks are two others.
Hard blocks are strikes to nerves or to bnes and muscles and nerves, on the limbs, to break as well as deflect.
Funakoshi lists thriteeen categories of blocking or receiving( uke) waza in the Kyoan, and to say there are none in kata when these all come from kata, is foolish.
Incidentally, studyuing tuite against a relaxed, cooperating opponent and doing point attacks to same is one thing, using it in a sparring match another, and in a fight or self defense, yet another.It is not easy, but interception, must setup the contact, with can then unbalance or lock the opponent who can then be struck.
Or the opponent is caught with the intercept and simultanously locked.
Or struck on the intercept and stunned with a warning strike, atemi jutsu as Taika Oyata calls this.
Or other things can be done.But the way its done in demos and the way its really done are two different things.
Can I do it?Yes I can.
Can I do it on the move? Yes.
Can I do it on a resisting opponent? Yes.
If you can't, you don't yet understand enough.Kata can teach us but we need a good teacher to teach us kata, analysis, and applications for actual usage to protect our own and others lives.
Doing kata well and repeating it thousands of times is indeed good foundation training.
Trying to break specific techniques out of kata,and repeat them in actual use, is difficult to impossible without good training done correctly.
Basics, kata, techniques, and setups/defenses/stepping,avoiding, evading,unbalancing, all must enter into our kata training and partner training.
Kata ko's that don't work in a fight , don't need to be practiced.
Which do and which don't? That where practice comes in.
Changing katas can be done by anyone who understands all of the above, thoroughly.
Real Chinese and Okinawan katas are done many different ways by the practitioners anyway, as Bill points out, and are taught that way by many teachers.
Regards,
John
Regards,
John
Changing The Katas
Well, for karate people over 40 the flying double kick is, by necessity, a kick, but for young folks I think this an area for exploration. Everybody can do katas and knock people out, but who can jump over someone? That would really be something to be proud of. But use some common sense here; don't hurt yourself trying this.
Changing The Katas
Lo Hawrang,
In regards to the jumping front kick, as originally designed it was two distinct front kicks, delivered against either one or two opponents.
As a beginners training device (as I understand it) the jumping knee for height followed by the jump front kick became easier for newer students who hadn't developed the lower body technique to deliver the two front kicks.
Actually, there is a Shorin tradition using the double jumping front kicks from Seiza (kneeling) stance, too.
Unfortunately, many today no longer practice the original version.
Then on the Tekki (renamed in Shotokan from the Original Nihahchi) Kata. The original version of Nihanchi kata opened into horse stance as do the other kata (refer to Nagamine Shoshin's the Essence of Okinawan Karate Do).
Frankly I don't know what Tekki 3 you are referring to, as I check out Nakayama's Best Karate Heian/Tekki where Tekki 3 also simply opens out to a horse stance.
Perhaps whatever variation you are referring to has been changed.
The original Tekki/Nihanchi kata specifically develop advanced lateral movement (also found in Nijushiho and Gojushiho kata) and each of those kata are an extreme wealth of advanced combat technique. Of course the kata in application require more advanced angle of insertion than the movement tends to suggest, but such are training necessities in any system.
Now, does 'modern' flash exist in kata. Without doubt, go to almost any 'open' karate tournament and you will see movement added to forms to impress judges and audience. That is the burden of the instructors who follow such paths. But the forms from the past, were not crafted to impress.
Going back to your high turning jump drop to the floor in a deep stance with a slap. Training each individual to one's highest level of performance would cause the high jump to enter training. But such performance increases the strength and skill of the performer. The form alone does not complete the picture. Next, and most important, is learning how to fit those movements against an attack, then progressing to random attacks and learning how to choose and sell the technique appropriately.
Victor Smith
In regards to the jumping front kick, as originally designed it was two distinct front kicks, delivered against either one or two opponents.
As a beginners training device (as I understand it) the jumping knee for height followed by the jump front kick became easier for newer students who hadn't developed the lower body technique to deliver the two front kicks.
Actually, there is a Shorin tradition using the double jumping front kicks from Seiza (kneeling) stance, too.
Unfortunately, many today no longer practice the original version.
Then on the Tekki (renamed in Shotokan from the Original Nihahchi) Kata. The original version of Nihanchi kata opened into horse stance as do the other kata (refer to Nagamine Shoshin's the Essence of Okinawan Karate Do).
Frankly I don't know what Tekki 3 you are referring to, as I check out Nakayama's Best Karate Heian/Tekki where Tekki 3 also simply opens out to a horse stance.
Perhaps whatever variation you are referring to has been changed.
The original Tekki/Nihanchi kata specifically develop advanced lateral movement (also found in Nijushiho and Gojushiho kata) and each of those kata are an extreme wealth of advanced combat technique. Of course the kata in application require more advanced angle of insertion than the movement tends to suggest, but such are training necessities in any system.
Now, does 'modern' flash exist in kata. Without doubt, go to almost any 'open' karate tournament and you will see movement added to forms to impress judges and audience. That is the burden of the instructors who follow such paths. But the forms from the past, were not crafted to impress.
Going back to your high turning jump drop to the floor in a deep stance with a slap. Training each individual to one's highest level of performance would cause the high jump to enter training. But such performance increases the strength and skill of the performer. The form alone does not complete the picture. Next, and most important, is learning how to fit those movements against an attack, then progressing to random attacks and learning how to choose and sell the technique appropriately.
Victor Smith
Changing The Katas
Hi hwrang!
Changing kata? No, for the same reason one does not change the dictionary.
Add kata? Better question. But it begs more questions.
Katas IMNSHO, are the encyclopedia of the art and, as such, should be open to expansion, augmentation and the like, but the kata itself, which is primarily a teaching and training tool, should have a basic function, such as sanchin's stance and power.
So the question might be - if we were to devise a new kata, what would be the focus of the kata - what is it trying to teach us?
As I see it, there is a whole lexicon of kata waiting to be developed for what I call the "new" kobudo which would include weapons of opportunity, such as house keys, books, the pocket comb, the chair and the like.
I attended a tournament in the Chicago area about a year ago and the "free kata" program was something I will never forget. Gymnastics, capoeira (the South American fighting art using tumbling as a basis) and modern dance were what I saw - all done to seriously rocking music! Practical application IN those kata seemed to be sadly missing. There was no even remotely obvious lesson inherent in any of those "kata," but the attitude that I can do more stunts than you can, which is NOT karate.
Not to mention that only the practitioner who created the kata performed it and then only once.
A kata is a set exercise - it would be interesting to see just how well the practitioners doing these "free" kata would do in repeating the form. Maybe they would do well - my bet is maybe not. My serious concern is that these "free kata" will be taught as original karate and that the injuries resulting from them will cause a lot of damage to the newer student.
I mean, seriosuly, a backflip, followed by a cartwheel followed by a bellyflop onto the floor?! From shoulder height? The probability of injury from such a move is rather high and teaching that to a student could result in a LOT if litigation.
While I have espoused the line that the second word in Martial Arts is ART, which demands some creativity, let's not lose sight of the fact that the basic pallette must first be mastered before one strokes (no pubn intended) out on his or her own.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Changing kata? No, for the same reason one does not change the dictionary.
Add kata? Better question. But it begs more questions.
Katas IMNSHO, are the encyclopedia of the art and, as such, should be open to expansion, augmentation and the like, but the kata itself, which is primarily a teaching and training tool, should have a basic function, such as sanchin's stance and power.
So the question might be - if we were to devise a new kata, what would be the focus of the kata - what is it trying to teach us?
As I see it, there is a whole lexicon of kata waiting to be developed for what I call the "new" kobudo which would include weapons of opportunity, such as house keys, books, the pocket comb, the chair and the like.
I attended a tournament in the Chicago area about a year ago and the "free kata" program was something I will never forget. Gymnastics, capoeira (the South American fighting art using tumbling as a basis) and modern dance were what I saw - all done to seriously rocking music! Practical application IN those kata seemed to be sadly missing. There was no even remotely obvious lesson inherent in any of those "kata," but the attitude that I can do more stunts than you can, which is NOT karate.
Not to mention that only the practitioner who created the kata performed it and then only once.
A kata is a set exercise - it would be interesting to see just how well the practitioners doing these "free" kata would do in repeating the form. Maybe they would do well - my bet is maybe not. My serious concern is that these "free kata" will be taught as original karate and that the injuries resulting from them will cause a lot of damage to the newer student.
I mean, seriosuly, a backflip, followed by a cartwheel followed by a bellyflop onto the floor?! From shoulder height? The probability of injury from such a move is rather high and teaching that to a student could result in a LOT if litigation.
While I have espoused the line that the second word in Martial Arts is ART, which demands some creativity, let's not lose sight of the fact that the basic pallette must first be mastered before one strokes (no pubn intended) out on his or her own.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
