No blocks in kata???

[Bill Glasheen]

It seems someone came on these forums and got a few people stirred with a simple statement made in a few places. The statement is something like There are no blocks in kata. When I saw it in another thread, I saw the moniker "dki girl," and immediately chose to think nothing of it. Others have taken to making the statement a topic of debate. One person wrote me and asked me what it was all about. No blocks in kata? Say what?? Blasphemy!!!

Actually this is what I like to refer to as a "Dillmanism." Many in the martial arts community make bold or controversial statements in order to get a reaction or make people think. Gee...we don't have any of those people on our forums. Anyhow, the Dillman (DKI) kyusho community often makes this statement. The whole idea is to get the student of kata to think of all ukes as possible attacks to vulnerable points. When one thinks of "blocks" (actually a mistranslation of uke) as such, then the possibilities expand greatly. To take that statement as literal and absolute is - in my opinion - not the intent of whichever individual first made the statement. It's just designed to make you think.

Lately I've been expanding the translation of foreign phrases in my dojo to get people to think a bit. My latest translation of pangainoon isn't half hard, half soft. Instead, I take the more broad translation of a little bit this, a little bit that. When you think about it, most motions in kata could be blocks, thrusts, strikes, and even throws. The elbow movement in kanshiwa kata is a classic example. A shoken could be a pointy thrust or a tearing grab. The same for the hiraken.

We can all argue about semantics, but that's the spirit of the statement - in my opinion.

- Bill

[dmsdc]

I especially like the translation of uke as "receiving or receiver" and tori as "giving or giver"

It goes along with the sanchin principals of float, sink, swallow, spit - at least in my melting pot martial arts mentality.

I'm reading this interesting book called Barefoot Zen : The Shaolin Roots of Kung Fu and Karate by a sometime goju, sometime kung-fu practitioner, Nathan Johnson. He talks a lot about Sanchin - Uechi, Goju, & Shorin - Ryu.

He uses this slightly basic and equally eloquent analogy for Sanchin.

Think of two people on either side of a door that can swing both forward and backward. Both Uke (receiver) and Tori (giver) are exerting equal force on opposite sides of the same edge of the door. This is "floating".

At the moment that Tori pushes too hard on the door Uke releases his pressure on the door allowing it to open. This is "sinking"

Tori - who is now pushing against no resistance - comes forward through the door. Uke is perfectly positioned (i.e. off-line) to help Tori forward - taking advantage of his off-balance. This is "swallowing".

At the moment that Tori reverses his energy in the opposite direction to try and regain his balance, Uke is right there to help shove (strike) Tori back out the door.
This is "spitting".

A lot of this can be played out in our arm-rubbing excercise, but you have to break the metronome back & forth rubbing to do it. -- i.e. push hands.

Dana

[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited June 26, 2001).]

[kusanku]

Works for me.

Whole thing is, on another group in which I sometimes participate, one man hwh became regarded as expert in kata analysis and even published some books on it,in another styel of kaate, a Japanese one in fact, put up a set of twelve 'rules' he said applied to all kata, and one of the first was the mantra as he called it, 'there are no blocks in kata.'

Many came to think this statement was literally true and that they could not think of any uke waza being used to block anymore.

I came in from a background of Okinawan karate including from a lineage which includes the man from whom Mr. Dillman got his basic clue on this stuff.

I said of course there are blocks in kata, and defined blocks in many ways.Uke waza are receiving techniques, how you receive an attackers intent, kinetic energy, momentum, and technique being only a few of the definitions of receiving.

In Judo ukemi, breakfalling, really means receiving body, how to allow the ground to receive your body without injury.

So, I though it would be good to counter the blunt statements made by dkigirl( yes, I too, thought of saying, well, heck-) but I thought, who might buy this statement or buy into it, if someone doesn't say something?

And so some people, and myself too, did.

Anyway-this statement to my mind is one that semantically doesn't make sense, like the one that says Kata is no good for fighting, when it was the main training of the old masters who had to use the arts to stay alive.

Sometimes words can hurt us.Sometimes what we think we know can get us killed.

On another thread, Van Sensei asked why no yushofighters go into NHB tournaments and do light tap ko's?

As I am not absolutely sure why the stuff works at all,but do know that it can and does, and can even do some myself, I wil say that I have ehard some comments from instructors of the stuff that the light touch stuff works best when people are relaxed, and if they have not reviously been sparring.Apparently really getting up a sweat, heart rate, and adrenalin going, makes it less effective, at least the light stuff.

All I know about that.I note that DKI people tend to practice a lot of free sparring.

I asked them about it, and they said it was for reflexes, but to my ind reflexes are trained for kata techniques by practicing two person attack and counter drills.Not ones eset in stone, but flexible ones allowing for a lot of body turn and tai kawashi type evasions, footwork, interception( uke waza) and unbalancing(kuzushi) stuff, with some counterstriking to points indicated but not carried out.

I would like here to quote from a Book called Complete Kano Jiu Jitsu, 1906, written mby Irving Hancock and Katsuyuki Higashi, and giving a system which was taught by them to US Naval Officer Candidates at Annapolis.Newer editions of this book do not include the section on Vital Points,which I am going to quote from, and which was sent me by a friend of mine who is a high ranked and extremely knowledgeable Jiujitsu and Judo Instructor.

p.501
'The Serious And Fatal Blows."

'Blows maybe struck that wil cause insensibility or death.Among Occidental readers there is a notion that,because one who has been killed by a fatal blow can be brought back to life, he was not really killed after all.When a fatal jiu-jitsu blow is struck in the right way,the processes of life are mechanically stopped.It requires the prompt manipulations of kuatsu (my note-resuscitation) to set these vital forces at work again by mechanical means, and thus torestore life.<CPR anyone?>

'At some points that may be struck on the human body, the most skillfully delivered blow may produce only insensibility.At other points a skillfully delivered blow will cause death, while a lighter blow will cause insensibility.'

'Much depends upon the way that the blow is given.'<Here follows technical information I do not feel like reproducig on a public forum concerning the type of blow likely to do maximum damage, ie death.

'...Never More Than Indicate the Blows unless there be an expert at kuatsu at hand!'

In short, if you really know the real deal, these blows are dangerous such that death is quite possible.

Then, previous to some charts of the Kano Seventy, the seventy points, comes a description of which points on which charts,will, when effectively struck, will cause death unconscioussness,at which bones can be broken by grappling, and a whichpain may be caused by twisting or pressure.

There is nothing new under the sun, eh?

It is interesting to note that the techniques must be done with high level skill to be effective.

These techniques were taught in the form of two person katas.

They include setup and entry including precisely how to block or receive the incoming attacks.

They are identical to techniques of Ryukyu Kempo karate.One of the old forms of Japanese iujitsu was called Kempo jiujitsu and came from China.

Several others reportedly came from that one.

[Jim Kass]

If you think you will not be hit in a confrontation with someone who is a violent, drugged/drunk vicious "enforcer" or a mean sober kick your ass body builder/clown because you interrupted "his" day,.. wake up!

Assume this individual grabs YOU by the throat!

Your response is to immediately remove the hands from YOUR NECK! How do you do it??

Block...

Attack...

please ellaborate!

[dki girl]

Hi all...I didn't mean to upset people here...I just get a little irritated when people say they don't like to practice the worthless parts of their katas and want to cut them out entirely.

The masters created the katas the way they did for a reason. Everyone will have their own opinion of why and what to do with them.

[Bill Glasheen]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

I didn't mean to upset people here

You're no fun! <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

I just get a little irritated when people say they don't like to practice the worthless parts of their katas and want to cut them out entirely.

Give them time. Some things in martial arts are like fine wine; they take time to mature to a point where we gain interest.

I believe it was Mick Jagger who once said he didn't think he'd be singing Satisfaction as a fifty-year-old. His point was we tend to evolve in our thinking about anything - including music and karate. What is of little interest at one point in our life suddenly makes much more sense for us later on. And what seems so important can change dramatically later on. For some folks, no amount of cajoling will make the interest develop until they are ready for it. As teachers, we take that into account and make sure they stay exposed until the time is right and the light comes on inside their head.

Good forms often have lots in them. We tend to see different things in them at different levels of understanding and different stations in life. That's part of the fun.

- Bill

[Colin 8 of 8]

No blocks in kata.

I can beat that. I was informed by Sensei Rogers (8th dan?) that in Kempo Jujitsu there are no blocks at all.

Kempo Jujitsu, the gentle art of kicking the s**t out of people.

Colin 8 of 8


------------------
My name is Colin 8 of 8, I am very much alive, and intend to stay that way.

[Dale Knepp]

No blocks in kata

Actually this concept has been misunderstood and misused by quite a few people. The idea originated from a statement that Taika Oyata made in the early 80's. Back in those days and probably still do today, some people had the idea that one blocks first and then strikes second in a confrontation requiring self defense application. Taika Oyata teaches the concept that karate is offense/defense at the same time.

I think what Taika was trying to get across was one concept in his theory about life protection. That being one covers one’s body weaknesses first whether by changing body position or striking an assailant. Taika disliked the connotation of the word “blocking” thinking it a wrong translation for the concept about covering the body. So, you are quite correct that Taika intended the statement to stop people from being fixated in their thinking process. This opens them to another way of thinking about analyzing kata and the techniques one can learn from studying them.

Taika still implores this unconventional technique in our study of kata. Recently, he has had us change the angle that we face during some of the turns in seisan kata that changes the way the body moves to open for the next movement. This helps to develop a zigzag moving pattern that can be effectively used to apply technique by adjusting one's body position and distance in relation to one’s opponent.

Hopes this helps,

Dale

[Evan Pantazi]

As I mentioned on Canna Sensei's Forum...
"Wow, go away for a couple of weeks and there is more Kyusho Disscussion on the Forum's than when I'm here...I know a hint.

Same discussions as the past 3 years...those that practice it believe it, those that don't practice it don't believe it.

And as we have seen no amount of arguing will help anything...except make an exceptionally long thread"!

I did manage to "hypnotize" a few Uechi-Ka as well as Kempo-ka's in England though!

One more closing thought: if you think it's a block, it is...if you think it's a strike, it is...if you think it's a grapple, it is.


------------------
Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com

[Dale Knepp]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Evan Pantazi:
And as we have seen no amount of arguing will help anything...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who's arguing? That's what Taika Oyata has been (mis)quoted as having said but what I said is what he meant. No discussion necessary. If you doubt what I've said, then come ask him yourself. You may attend our summer conference if you wish. Perhaps, you can show us how you "hypnotize" someone whose unwilling to do so.

Dale Knepp

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[kusanku]

Excellent stuff, wish I could be there, maybe next time I'll be able to.

For anyone who really wants to know, that is the place to go.There you will see how it can be done.

Someone on here asked how to remove a huge guy's hands from your throat.

Well, if you lift up with your palms under his elbows he will be unable to hold on.

But a very easy way is to simply turn out of the grip by stepping sideways and back into a naihanchi or kiba stance.

If in the process you want to strike with yoko zuki, feel free.:-)

Trying to counter greater strength with strength will get you choked, here.

Another way to do it is to circle one hand up, palm under one of his elbows, and turn him over from the outside to the inside, which will make him lose balance.

Still another method is to kick him in the groin.

Yet another thing might be to reach and grab his head and twist himm to the floor, using appropriate footwork and body movements to do.

There are other ways that I am not going to go into here, as they could hae really bad results for the person and for this attack, it is not necessary to do anything so drastic.

A basic method learned long ago was to step back and slide farther back into a front stance or seisan stance, as you wedge your elbows in between his wrists from abobe, and come down to double chamber position, then slide in forward and double strike to his throat with twin inverted fists( uppercuts). That's pretty drastic come to think of it.:-)

Yet another is more advaNnced, STICK ONE FINGER INTO THE HOLLOW OF HIS THROAT AND STEP BACK AND TO THE SIDE.

Still another would be to swing one arm over both his hands as you turn away from him, and swing back with a shuto as you turn back towards him having freed your throat.

Once in the afctual situatio, I reached between the hands from underneath, gnetly parted them with the Taiji movement 'separatre hand' whic immediately precedes 'push in the form, and got to the outside of his arm with both my hands, locking his elbow out and handing him to a bouncer.No harm done and I don't consider that a fight, it was simply a response.I was seated and he was standing.

Which of these was a block? I don't think any are, since every one of them is predicated on the other guy actually grabbing your neck or throat.

A block or receiving technique, would be to prevent him from grabbing you.

One final basic technique, and all I have posted, evennthe more advanced one, are pretty basic-if you know judo, and the guy grabs the throat with both hands, stick your tongue to the roof of the mouth, tighten the neck muscles, put your chin down and execute the throw known as sode tsurikomi goshi.Sleeve Lift-pll hip throw.Drop him right on the floor.

This also works for a lapel grab.

What would I do now? Don't know, but in a serious grab, I would use a one shot takeout strike and ignore the hands on my throat.He ain't gonna choke me when he's lying on the floor unaware of anything.

As to those strikes, the less said, the better.Why? Cause there are a ton and a half of them.Are they kyusho strikes? Yep.Are they nerve strikes? Yep. Are they power strikes? You bet.They are really shotgun strikes, that affect a whole bunch of stuff at once.

Are those strikes in kata? Yes.Do they get the job done? Well, to find them, just think how you would least like to be hit and where, and search the kata, including the 'blocks' to find the moves, and you may well find some.


Hey. Life in danger? Think fingers to the eyes.

Thats the type thing I mean.

Don't let someone crush your throat or hyoid bone.

Hurt them if you have to.

But if you can learn proper body mechanics you may not have to.

Over, under, sideways, down.

Regards,
John

[Colin 8 of 8]

Next time sensei Tye puts his hands round my thought he will be in for a shock. It occurs to me that Vann sensei’s kick to the inguinal area overlapped with a stomach wheal may work .

Colin 8 of 8


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My name is Colin 8 of 8, I am very much alive, and intend to stay that way.

[LeeDarrow]

In the given assupmtion of a neck grab, one of my favorite responses is to stick my right arm straight up in the air and snap turn (shoulders and hips moving in synchronous action) to the left. Sort of a turn and call for a taxi move.

I don't care HOW strong your opponent is (and I did this to a Mr. Universe contender a few years ago and the Kodak Moment it generated will stay witn me to my last day on Earth)- you are loose and in a position to practice RUN-FU!

Of course, if you HAPPEN to plant your left hand on top of the hand on the RIGHT side of your neck before you turn - well, let's just say - it hurts. Him. Not you.

The idea that a 92lb lady can use a double forearm rising block against a front 2-hand choke hold done by your average street-Godzilla type is ludicrous. Time and again in class (back when I was able to teach) students proved this to each other over and over, whereas the "Taxi Turn" as it became known in the dojo, never failed.

Of course, you better be able to outrun the turkey after you break the hold!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim Kass:
If you think you will not be hit in a confrontation with someone who is a violent, drugged/drunk vicious "enforcer" or a mean sober kick your ass body builder/clown because you interrupted "his" day,.. wake up!

Assume this individual grabs YOU by the throat!

Your response is to immediately remove the hands from YOUR NECK! How do you do it??

Block...

Attack...

please ellaborate!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



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"No matter where you go, there you MIGHT be!" - Heisenberg

[kusanku]

The double upper rising block as seen in Kata gojushiho, is not a block, really, or a removal of a choke.

It however is one of those strikes I mentioned before.

Most people throw it way too high.
Its even taught that way.

Remember you are bending your knees.
Where do you suppose you could be hitting someone with that?

The taxi turn is described in my basics above, with a returning shuto on the end.

Here's one more basic defense.Trunb back and into a side stance3 as you hammerfist to the arm at the bulge on the forearm of the outside arm, in the direction of your turn.As they lurch forward a bit, back fist them across the nose.If they haven't let go by now, disengage them as they fall.

Regards,
John

[Lunchbox]

I know we're probably past it already but this is in response to the question of how to deal with an opponent whose hands are around your throat.We were dealing with the same situation in the intermediate class I was teaching recently. I was explaning the basic bunkai for the hojoundo koi no such tate uch when a student asked well what happens if I make a mistake and the opponent locks his arms in before I get a chance to use it? One thing to remember is that the minute someone locks theirs hands onto you, they are giving up 2 tools to your 4 tools. in that case, I would take both of my hands and take them between the opponents arms and lock my hands behind his neck, pulling his head down between his arms until relinquishes control. Ultimately the key here is the same key to any other physical confrontation is control, dont let fear and panic take control or you will fail regardless of the technique being used.

Just my thoughts and ideas, as always open to interpretation.