I find the quality of discussion extremely thought provoking.
Bill was talking about reverting to our earliest movement during stress. That makes a great deal of sense to me.
There are several issues this brings to mind. First, take a kata you practice forever. In Ueichi it would most likely be Sanchin, in Isshinryu it would most likely be Seisan. But rote memory doesn't confir the skill to sell any of the techniques.
Where does this skill arise? I might suggest from working those techniques against many different attacks and many different angles and planes of entry into those attacks. I find with experience you will begin to trust the technique and bridge the gap between practice to execution.
I found uncounted times I take a student (read dan) who's spent years on a kata movement, and when presented against a new attack, will revert to something else than what I expect because they don't trust their execution.
So an important topic of discussion might be how do you all acquire or teach the skill to sell a technique.
This might be a pivotal concept in the 'Changing the Kata' discussion. If the student and or instructor cannot sell the technique the would not the rational of changing to one they can sell arise?
And when one can sell a movement wouldn't that cause one to not agree with a change?
Food for thought.
Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
Changing the Kata II
Moderator: Available
Changing the Kata II
The best way to get students to "buy in" to the katas and make them study and practice hard enough that they become instinctive, is to give them realistic examples.
I know that alot of schools are still teaching the old bunki of kata's...down block to block a kick then step in and punch them. This realistically doesn't make sense to their minds so they don't practice it the way they should.
How many of you during sparring sessions or an actual fight, turned to an opponent that was going to kick you and do a down block?
So why do schools still teach it that way?
Becky
I know that alot of schools are still teaching the old bunki of kata's...down block to block a kick then step in and punch them. This realistically doesn't make sense to their minds so they don't practice it the way they should.
How many of you during sparring sessions or an actual fight, turned to an opponent that was going to kick you and do a down block?
So why do schools still teach it that way?
Becky
Changing the Kata II
Victor,
Very interesting spin and new direction for this thread.
Kata, as most of seem to agree, constitute the "lingua physical" of MA. Many kata were devised outside of today's combative environment, under the social and combative trends of their period. This is not to denigrate kata in any way. I believe I have made my opinion on the usefulness of kata pretty clear earlier in this thread, but want to make sure, for the late joiners.
The difference in "selling" a move and making a move a part of a person's quasi-autonomic response system may be a fine line to draw, but I believe that this line exists.
If we think of kata as a set of scales in a musical sense, and different kata as differing kinds of scales (like harmonic and diatonic, for example), we see that innumerable combinations of notes (moves) are possible. Kata, more like a composition, opens the idea up for variations on a theme, adaptation and even pastiche (like Jackie Chan's variation on Zaijiquan, or the Drunken Style).
It's the nailing down of these techniques into a person's response system UNDER STRESS that is the problem many teachers, not just in Uechi or Shorin Ryus, have and it is a serious one.
If, by "selling" a technique, you mean teaching it so the student is comfortable with it enough to use it under varying circumstances, then you have to go into the internal part of the teaching exercise - understanding the student's psyche, motivations, strengths and weaknesses, both physical and psychological. Once comprehension of that part of the equation is made, then the teacher can address technique in a manner that will "stick" for a student - making the technique part of their response system. At least, that's what worked for me back in the Jurassic Period when I was teaching.
Remember, in the earlier years of the MA, students were like apprentices to a Master craftsman in a medieval Guild. They lived, ate and did everything at and for their Master. As such, the Sensei came to know the student inside/out. It was in some ways easier to teach them in this fashion because of that intimate understanding of the student's mind.
Today, it is different and we live in a different culture. Students are often transitory, styles mix and schools visit each other and even go to Camp together!
This makes teaching in this manner very difficult unless one understands some of the more modern theories of communication and teaching, including NeuroLinguistic Programming (a psychological therapy method based on the works of Milton Erickson and a couple of guys named Bandler & Grinder) and others.
Hope this helps, rambling as it is.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Victor:
I find the quality of discussion extremely thought provoking.
Bill was talking about reverting to our earliest movement during stress. That makes a great deal of sense to me.
There are several issues this brings to mind. First, take a kata you practice forever. In Ueichi it would most likely be Sanchin, in Isshinryu it would most likely be Seisan. But rote memory doesn't confir the skill to sell any of the techniques.
Where does this skill arise? I might suggest from working those techniques against many different attacks and many different angles and planes of entry into those attacks. I find with experience you will begin to trust the technique and bridge the gap between practice to execution.
I found uncounted times I take a student (read dan) who's spent years on a kata movement, and when presented against a new attack, will revert to something else than what I expect because they don't trust their execution.
So an important topic of discussion might be how do you all acquire or teach the skill to sell a technique.
This might be a pivotal concept in the 'Changing the Kata' discussion. If the student and or instructor cannot sell the technique the would not the rational of changing to one they can sell arise?
And when one can sell a movement wouldn't that cause one to not agree with a change?
Food for thought.
Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
------------------
"No matter where you go, there you MIGHT be!" - Heisenberg
Very interesting spin and new direction for this thread.
Kata, as most of seem to agree, constitute the "lingua physical" of MA. Many kata were devised outside of today's combative environment, under the social and combative trends of their period. This is not to denigrate kata in any way. I believe I have made my opinion on the usefulness of kata pretty clear earlier in this thread, but want to make sure, for the late joiners.
The difference in "selling" a move and making a move a part of a person's quasi-autonomic response system may be a fine line to draw, but I believe that this line exists.
If we think of kata as a set of scales in a musical sense, and different kata as differing kinds of scales (like harmonic and diatonic, for example), we see that innumerable combinations of notes (moves) are possible. Kata, more like a composition, opens the idea up for variations on a theme, adaptation and even pastiche (like Jackie Chan's variation on Zaijiquan, or the Drunken Style).
It's the nailing down of these techniques into a person's response system UNDER STRESS that is the problem many teachers, not just in Uechi or Shorin Ryus, have and it is a serious one.
If, by "selling" a technique, you mean teaching it so the student is comfortable with it enough to use it under varying circumstances, then you have to go into the internal part of the teaching exercise - understanding the student's psyche, motivations, strengths and weaknesses, both physical and psychological. Once comprehension of that part of the equation is made, then the teacher can address technique in a manner that will "stick" for a student - making the technique part of their response system. At least, that's what worked for me back in the Jurassic Period when I was teaching.
Remember, in the earlier years of the MA, students were like apprentices to a Master craftsman in a medieval Guild. They lived, ate and did everything at and for their Master. As such, the Sensei came to know the student inside/out. It was in some ways easier to teach them in this fashion because of that intimate understanding of the student's mind.
Today, it is different and we live in a different culture. Students are often transitory, styles mix and schools visit each other and even go to Camp together!
This makes teaching in this manner very difficult unless one understands some of the more modern theories of communication and teaching, including NeuroLinguistic Programming (a psychological therapy method based on the works of Milton Erickson and a couple of guys named Bandler & Grinder) and others.
Hope this helps, rambling as it is.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Victor:
I find the quality of discussion extremely thought provoking.
Bill was talking about reverting to our earliest movement during stress. That makes a great deal of sense to me.
There are several issues this brings to mind. First, take a kata you practice forever. In Ueichi it would most likely be Sanchin, in Isshinryu it would most likely be Seisan. But rote memory doesn't confir the skill to sell any of the techniques.
Where does this skill arise? I might suggest from working those techniques against many different attacks and many different angles and planes of entry into those attacks. I find with experience you will begin to trust the technique and bridge the gap between practice to execution.
I found uncounted times I take a student (read dan) who's spent years on a kata movement, and when presented against a new attack, will revert to something else than what I expect because they don't trust their execution.
So an important topic of discussion might be how do you all acquire or teach the skill to sell a technique.
This might be a pivotal concept in the 'Changing the Kata' discussion. If the student and or instructor cannot sell the technique the would not the rational of changing to one they can sell arise?
And when one can sell a movement wouldn't that cause one to not agree with a change?
Food for thought.
Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
------------------
"No matter where you go, there you MIGHT be!" - Heisenberg
Changing the Kata II
I think there is a misunderstanding about kata here. Although the self-defense applications are certainly in there, they are often hidden or disguised or difficult to see because kata is art first and foremost. The comparison with music is apt because the classic katas are inspired compositions just like great musical compostitions. In a great musical composition the composer transcends the ordinary and pours out his soul into his creation, only incidentally concerning himself with how it will be performed in public by various musicians. In a classic kata you have the same thing. A martial artist long ago poured out his soul, his personal philosophy, his view of the world, his feelings, and so forth into his creation, which is composed of marital techniques, but is not really a precise blueprint to show you how to bash such and such person in such and such situation, although the techniques to do this are there if you look hard enough. And he did this to leave something behind him for future generations, to make himself immortal so to speak by creating something that would live on forever. So when his students long ago asked him to explain the various movements, he would give the standard explanations of the various martial techniques, but I think if the student asked: "But how would you use this technique in a specific situation like such and such?", I think he would be saddened by such a question.
-
Colin 8 of 8
- Posts: 71
- Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Portsmouth Hampshire UK
Changing the Kata II
Hwarang
Your post seams to beg the question: Dose a kata need to be practical?
If the kata is done for arts sake and no other, i.e. a rhythmic kata, Then the answer is no.
If the kata is a teaching aid, then the answer must be yes.
dki girl
Hurts doesn’t it?
Colin 8 of 8
------------------
My name is Colin 8 of 8, I am very much alive, and intend to stay that way.
Your post seams to beg the question: Dose a kata need to be practical?
If the kata is done for arts sake and no other, i.e. a rhythmic kata, Then the answer is no.
If the kata is a teaching aid, then the answer must be yes.
dki girl
Hurts doesn’t it?
Colin 8 of 8
------------------
My name is Colin 8 of 8, I am very much alive, and intend to stay that way.
Changing the Kata II
Just because a pianist practices their scales every day doesn't mean that they perform them in concert.
Kata are more like an encyclopedia of techniques or a musical composition, open to some interpretation.
And, yes, I have used a down block against a kick in a real fight. The step in and punch was also effective.
When it comes right down to it, the real test of whether something is effective is whether you can work it on the street. While some combinations seem out of date and impractical, there is always (in my experience) SOME way to apply those techniques in a real life situation. The trick, as noted before, is the interference of the chemical cocktail - the adrenal rush that blows higher coordination away in many people and impairs it in even the most trained among us.
So the answer, IMHO, is that kata ARE practical, you just have to look deep enough to see.
Please understand, this is not a criticism. There's plenty of room for advancement in kata, especially in the area of kobudo.
Kobudo, the use of daily objects as weapons (Sai, Tuifa (tonfa), Kama, Manji-Sai, Chinte, Bo, etc.) could be seriously updated for modern society using modern items found around the house, office and on the street.
I would LOVE to see Tomoyose-sensei's take on that! I imagine that he would be able to come up with some extremely practical kata for things like a briefcase, backpack, book, car keys and the like without dimninishing the artistic or the martial aspect of kata.
Maybe this will happen. I hope so, because carrying around this Bo with the Manji-Sai jammed into the top of it is getting me some pretty strange looks on the El and subway here in Chicago!
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colin 8 of 8:
Hwarang
Your post seams to beg the question: Dose a kata need to be practical?
If the kata is done for arts sake and no other, i.e. a rhythmic kata, Then the answer is no.
If the kata is a teaching aid, then the answer must be yes.
dki girl
Hurts doesn’t it?
Colin 8 of 8
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
------------------
"No matter where you go, there you MIGHT be!" - Heisenberg
Kata are more like an encyclopedia of techniques or a musical composition, open to some interpretation.
And, yes, I have used a down block against a kick in a real fight. The step in and punch was also effective.
When it comes right down to it, the real test of whether something is effective is whether you can work it on the street. While some combinations seem out of date and impractical, there is always (in my experience) SOME way to apply those techniques in a real life situation. The trick, as noted before, is the interference of the chemical cocktail - the adrenal rush that blows higher coordination away in many people and impairs it in even the most trained among us.
So the answer, IMHO, is that kata ARE practical, you just have to look deep enough to see.
Please understand, this is not a criticism. There's plenty of room for advancement in kata, especially in the area of kobudo.
Kobudo, the use of daily objects as weapons (Sai, Tuifa (tonfa), Kama, Manji-Sai, Chinte, Bo, etc.) could be seriously updated for modern society using modern items found around the house, office and on the street.
I would LOVE to see Tomoyose-sensei's take on that! I imagine that he would be able to come up with some extremely practical kata for things like a briefcase, backpack, book, car keys and the like without dimninishing the artistic or the martial aspect of kata.
Maybe this will happen. I hope so, because carrying around this Bo with the Manji-Sai jammed into the top of it is getting me some pretty strange looks on the El and subway here in Chicago!
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colin 8 of 8:
Hwarang
Your post seams to beg the question: Dose a kata need to be practical?
If the kata is done for arts sake and no other, i.e. a rhythmic kata, Then the answer is no.
If the kata is a teaching aid, then the answer must be yes.
dki girl
Hurts doesn’t it?
Colin 8 of 8
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
------------------
"No matter where you go, there you MIGHT be!" - Heisenberg
Changing the Kata II
Lee, I've never taken kendo, but I've heard that if you get real serious about kendo, then any object that you can hold firmly in your hand and which projects at least 3 in. (for example a rolled up newspaper, or just your hand if nothing else is available) becomes a weapon that can be used with great effect. I guess that's why kendo devotees become so fanatical about their art. To them it is the ultimate martial art, and they need no other.
Changing the Kata II
Hi everyone
I new to here although ive been following this particular thread for a while now. Im just a lowly shodan but Ive spent quite a bit of my last 5 years of training "studying" the fighting approach of this system and how to fight and defend one's self with kata technique.
One of the cocnlusions that Ive come to is that katas present us with a unique opportunity to learn 3 things.
A) fundamental techniques, strictly the physical execution of basics.
B)Anatomy/biology/kinesiology
C) and tactics, how to budo-kumite using various strategies.
One thing to keep in mind, however, is that although every specific technique and movement is in the form for a speicific purpose, each manuever also teaches you the concept behind the technique.
I feel that the important thing is not how many techniques you know, its how well you can apply the technical/tactical concepts.
Now this causes for some serious headache but ultimately it makes you a more flexible MA with a sharper mind. If you have that then the 8 kata in uechi-ryu should more than suffice for any practical minded karateka. But I could be wrong for I am just a shodan.
adventure?...excitement? A jedi craves not ...
I new to here although ive been following this particular thread for a while now. Im just a lowly shodan but Ive spent quite a bit of my last 5 years of training "studying" the fighting approach of this system and how to fight and defend one's self with kata technique.
One of the cocnlusions that Ive come to is that katas present us with a unique opportunity to learn 3 things.
A) fundamental techniques, strictly the physical execution of basics.
B)Anatomy/biology/kinesiology
C) and tactics, how to budo-kumite using various strategies.
One thing to keep in mind, however, is that although every specific technique and movement is in the form for a speicific purpose, each manuever also teaches you the concept behind the technique.
I feel that the important thing is not how many techniques you know, its how well you can apply the technical/tactical concepts.
Now this causes for some serious headache but ultimately it makes you a more flexible MA with a sharper mind. If you have that then the 8 kata in uechi-ryu should more than suffice for any practical minded karateka. But I could be wrong for I am just a shodan.
adventure?...excitement? A jedi craves not ...
Changing the Kata II
'Adventure? Excitement? A jedi craves not...'
'Hmmm. Neeed those, you do not.Go I must.:-)'
'Hmmm. Neeed those, you do not.Go I must.:-)'
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Changing the Kata II
Victor and Lee
I don't know how I missed this thread for the last week. You guys are good! I really like where your minds are and where you are taking this.
Consider something I just posted on a thread started by a forum newcomer about kata. You will see that we have been of like mind lately (almost to the point of being scary...). I added some emphasis via bolding to this quote. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Part of sloppiness and lack of strength come from being unfamiliar with the movements. Thus more kata practice and more partner application work can help here
...
Most kata have 3 or 4 salient techniques that define the nature of the kata. Often these techniques can be the "sticking points" in the general kata performance. When I teach, I often spend more time working on these individual techniques than I do having the students perform the whole kata. I will even choreograph my own little exercises (we call them hojoundo) that allow someone to work on these points repeatedly. Each day, I make the exercises a little different so as to add a little variety.
Another thing I like to do is to break these salient techniques down into their fundamental components. Actually I apply this same method when I am trying to teach myself a song on the guitar that has pieces which are much too difficult for me to play. I may spend some time just working the posture. I may then spend time working on the foot movement (most people neglect this vital aspect). I may see the fundamental elements of movement within a complex technique, and have the students practice those. On some movements, I start with drilling all the fundamental elements (usually coming from a foundation kata like sanchin), and then slowly put the pieces together until they are performing a complex exercise that drills this movement in an even more convoluted way than is done in the kata.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My approach to all of this has come from several angles and perspectives. First of all, I am constantly taking things back to "home" with a kind of reductionist analysis that points to the relationship between the complex and the fundamental elements that we do again and again ad nauseum. I like to do these mental exercises because it points to the simplicity of it all. If we show people that a few basic skills of fundamental movement can bring them a long way, then I believe we have turned the complex into the simple and easy to understand. I like to emphasize that the many kata and exercises are nothing more than variations on a theme. When a person views a system of martial arts as a whole collection of things that they need to memorize, it will never work. When a person realizes that a handful of skills have almost limitless permutations through creative synthesis, then it is both easy and infinitely applicable. That - I think - is how you get beyond this tendency to mentally freeze when we need to be the most creative. Perfect the fundamentals, drill them in every possible combination and permutation, learn to trust your skills with partner/scenario training, and then let happen what happens.
Oh...and I love the music analogies. I've often said that all karateka should play an instrument (at least one). I can tell you that I have seen many great Okinawan masters playing music with native instruments. Watching them play may be like watching grass grow, but that's beside the point. It's the exercise that brings the mind to the right place. I don't know what is more important - the similarity in approach to learning or the fundamental effect that music has on our perception and ability to absorb information a certain way. I suppose with time we will learn more about this.
- Bill
I don't know how I missed this thread for the last week. You guys are good! I really like where your minds are and where you are taking this.
Consider something I just posted on a thread started by a forum newcomer about kata. You will see that we have been of like mind lately (almost to the point of being scary...). I added some emphasis via bolding to this quote. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Part of sloppiness and lack of strength come from being unfamiliar with the movements. Thus more kata practice and more partner application work can help here
...
Most kata have 3 or 4 salient techniques that define the nature of the kata. Often these techniques can be the "sticking points" in the general kata performance. When I teach, I often spend more time working on these individual techniques than I do having the students perform the whole kata. I will even choreograph my own little exercises (we call them hojoundo) that allow someone to work on these points repeatedly. Each day, I make the exercises a little different so as to add a little variety.
Another thing I like to do is to break these salient techniques down into their fundamental components. Actually I apply this same method when I am trying to teach myself a song on the guitar that has pieces which are much too difficult for me to play. I may spend some time just working the posture. I may then spend time working on the foot movement (most people neglect this vital aspect). I may see the fundamental elements of movement within a complex technique, and have the students practice those. On some movements, I start with drilling all the fundamental elements (usually coming from a foundation kata like sanchin), and then slowly put the pieces together until they are performing a complex exercise that drills this movement in an even more convoluted way than is done in the kata.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My approach to all of this has come from several angles and perspectives. First of all, I am constantly taking things back to "home" with a kind of reductionist analysis that points to the relationship between the complex and the fundamental elements that we do again and again ad nauseum. I like to do these mental exercises because it points to the simplicity of it all. If we show people that a few basic skills of fundamental movement can bring them a long way, then I believe we have turned the complex into the simple and easy to understand. I like to emphasize that the many kata and exercises are nothing more than variations on a theme. When a person views a system of martial arts as a whole collection of things that they need to memorize, it will never work. When a person realizes that a handful of skills have almost limitless permutations through creative synthesis, then it is both easy and infinitely applicable. That - I think - is how you get beyond this tendency to mentally freeze when we need to be the most creative. Perfect the fundamentals, drill them in every possible combination and permutation, learn to trust your skills with partner/scenario training, and then let happen what happens.
Oh...and I love the music analogies. I've often said that all karateka should play an instrument (at least one). I can tell you that I have seen many great Okinawan masters playing music with native instruments. Watching them play may be like watching grass grow, but that's beside the point. It's the exercise that brings the mind to the right place. I don't know what is more important - the similarity in approach to learning or the fundamental effect that music has on our perception and ability to absorb information a certain way. I suppose with time we will learn more about this.
- Bill
Changing the Kata II
Glasheen-Sensei,
Wow! I go and get my face laid open by a guy in a mask and am gone for a few days and I miss all the nice things you've said!
Thanks! A lot! Coming from you, it is high praise indeed.
As to the guy with the mask - he is a dentist and it was oral surgery, not an attack. (But I must wonder how many people reading that first part leapt to the conclusion... !)
My Sensei stressed the idea of rhythm in combat and in kata. Particularly the idea of synchapation. Develop a rhythm that your opponent has to mirror, then break the rhythm in an unexpected way and you will get a hit in.
Your comments about breaking kata down into sub-component parts is exactly what my Sensei used to do as well. He would take a three or two or even one movement action from a kata and have us go over ALL of the ways in which we could possibly use that single movement and drill us again and again on them.
Then into two move segments, and three and four and so on. We worked on Gojushiho for almost two years alone in this manner. Believe me when I say that this approach works. Both for on the street and in tournament (even though our dojo was not much for competitions - this was back in the days of no protective gear and no contact).
Virtually all of my street encounters were resolved by what amounts to sub-cortical response - directly out of kata. No-thought, just action.
After the encounters, I would THEN think them through and get physically ill, on one occasion, actually going into traumatic shock.
I am delighted to see that someone is teaching kata the way my Sensei taught kata. Not only was he a good teacher and friend, but I credit him with saving my life on at least four occasions - all without even being alive to do so. His training is what saved me.
No higher praise can I give someone.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Wow! I go and get my face laid open by a guy in a mask and am gone for a few days and I miss all the nice things you've said!
Thanks! A lot! Coming from you, it is high praise indeed.
As to the guy with the mask - he is a dentist and it was oral surgery, not an attack. (But I must wonder how many people reading that first part leapt to the conclusion... !)
My Sensei stressed the idea of rhythm in combat and in kata. Particularly the idea of synchapation. Develop a rhythm that your opponent has to mirror, then break the rhythm in an unexpected way and you will get a hit in.
Your comments about breaking kata down into sub-component parts is exactly what my Sensei used to do as well. He would take a three or two or even one movement action from a kata and have us go over ALL of the ways in which we could possibly use that single movement and drill us again and again on them.
Then into two move segments, and three and four and so on. We worked on Gojushiho for almost two years alone in this manner. Believe me when I say that this approach works. Both for on the street and in tournament (even though our dojo was not much for competitions - this was back in the days of no protective gear and no contact).
Virtually all of my street encounters were resolved by what amounts to sub-cortical response - directly out of kata. No-thought, just action.
After the encounters, I would THEN think them through and get physically ill, on one occasion, actually going into traumatic shock.
I am delighted to see that someone is teaching kata the way my Sensei taught kata. Not only was he a good teacher and friend, but I credit him with saving my life on at least four occasions - all without even being alive to do so. His training is what saved me.
No higher praise can I give someone.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
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maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
Changing the Kata II
Bill , sensei ,lee,victor ,brilliant observations , all round . To me it indicates your levels ,I would not like to add, to this topic . But I feel quite sure we could get to gether for adrink to explore each others ,understandings best wishes max
------------------
max ainley
------------------
max ainley
Changing the Kata II
Hi Max,
That sounds like a great idea. In fact if anyone is up in the New Hampshire area I have an acre of blueberries now ripening. Feel free to drop me a line at ISSHIM@mediaone.net and let me know.
You can pick berries, or perhaps we can smash some of them into brandy with our feet and soak in the juices <grin>.
Then shoot the breze on kata, bunkai or other fun stuff.
Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
That sounds like a great idea. In fact if anyone is up in the New Hampshire area I have an acre of blueberries now ripening. Feel free to drop me a line at ISSHIM@mediaone.net and let me know.
You can pick berries, or perhaps we can smash some of them into brandy with our feet and soak in the juices <grin>.
Then shoot the breze on kata, bunkai or other fun stuff.
Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
Changing the Kata II
Greetings all,
Would you not agree that if you have come up with "alternative" bunkai to the kata that we all practice,that these would be your "library of waza" should you be attacked?
I'm a Goju-Ryu practitioner of some 32 years and I know within myself that many of the traditional bunkai to kata i had to modify to suit todays,determined breed of attackers.
Surely with practice,drills and more practice you can find bunkai within all kata to meet your needs.
Action-reaction training also helps you make fast decisions when under pressure.
Unless you're a kyu graded student,I find it hard to imagine somebody suddenly springing into the traditional Sanchin bunkai to defend themselves.
Very interesting string though people...keep it up.
ShiN
Goju-Kai(I.G.K.A)
Sandan
[This message has been edited by ShiN (edited July 16, 2001).]
Would you not agree that if you have come up with "alternative" bunkai to the kata that we all practice,that these would be your "library of waza" should you be attacked?
I'm a Goju-Ryu practitioner of some 32 years and I know within myself that many of the traditional bunkai to kata i had to modify to suit todays,determined breed of attackers.
Surely with practice,drills and more practice you can find bunkai within all kata to meet your needs.
Action-reaction training also helps you make fast decisions when under pressure.
Unless you're a kyu graded student,I find it hard to imagine somebody suddenly springing into the traditional Sanchin bunkai to defend themselves.
Very interesting string though people...keep it up.
ShiN
Goju-Kai(I.G.K.A)
Sandan
[This message has been edited by ShiN (edited July 16, 2001).]
Changing the Kata II
Another point to consider -
My Sensei used to say - "A good soul will do good kata, even in a flawed body. A flawed soul will never do good kata, even in a perfect body."
He would then take a single one-two-or three move sequence from a kata, forinstance gojushiho, and have the students come up with as many ways that it could be applied in a real situation as possible. We would then test them, sort of an "alternate bunkai" as ShiN proposes (great idea, BTW, ShiN!). He believed that this method of teaching gave the student an inner awareness of the deeper meaning of the kata in question and helped open the soul to "right thinking and feeling."
I believe that this also gave virtually every student in the dojo a real hands-on experience of how these techniques were developed, the theories behind them and the amount of thinking that went into the creation of the kata.
"The more one understands about kata, the more one understands how little they understand," another of his quotes. Kata, as I have pointed out before, has many layers of meaning - from the encyclopedia of techniques, to logical combinations of jitsu, to the deeper meanings of self understanding to the place of Mu-Shin (no-thought) and others.
When one gets into the deeper phases of kata, one begins to understand, on a physiological level, below thought, how karate works. It becomes motion without thought, but never thoughtless motion.
IMHO, it is the attaiment of this Mu-Shin mind state that allows us freedom from the chemical cocktail.
I'm not there yet, but, in a few street encounters, I have had flashes of it. Anybody else had this experience?
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
My Sensei used to say - "A good soul will do good kata, even in a flawed body. A flawed soul will never do good kata, even in a perfect body."
He would then take a single one-two-or three move sequence from a kata, forinstance gojushiho, and have the students come up with as many ways that it could be applied in a real situation as possible. We would then test them, sort of an "alternate bunkai" as ShiN proposes (great idea, BTW, ShiN!). He believed that this method of teaching gave the student an inner awareness of the deeper meaning of the kata in question and helped open the soul to "right thinking and feeling."
I believe that this also gave virtually every student in the dojo a real hands-on experience of how these techniques were developed, the theories behind them and the amount of thinking that went into the creation of the kata.
"The more one understands about kata, the more one understands how little they understand," another of his quotes. Kata, as I have pointed out before, has many layers of meaning - from the encyclopedia of techniques, to logical combinations of jitsu, to the deeper meanings of self understanding to the place of Mu-Shin (no-thought) and others.
When one gets into the deeper phases of kata, one begins to understand, on a physiological level, below thought, how karate works. It becomes motion without thought, but never thoughtless motion.
IMHO, it is the attaiment of this Mu-Shin mind state that allows us freedom from the chemical cocktail.
I'm not there yet, but, in a few street encounters, I have had flashes of it. Anybody else had this experience?
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
