Hmmm, viewing kata as a musical theme. Interesting suggestion Lee and Bill. So if you like what follows, feel free to take the credit. If you don’t, feel free to simply call me possessed.
* * Overture * *
I believe most within the Isshinryu system would subscribe to kata being ‘classical’, meant to be unchanging. Where you practice the classics for perfect form, etc.
In my experience whenever somebody strays from their instructor’s or group’s classic it is often thought of as heresy. Of course my current reading of Dava Sobel’s ‘Galileo’s Daughter’ and the charges of heresy faced by Galileo’s make me consider that misinterpretation of the classics may be the real heresy.
* * First Movement – Beating Drums Slowly * *
Isshinryu’s founder, Shimabuku Tatsuo, crafted his system from his own studies with various Okinawan instructors. If you look at them and the systems they spawned you will find the classical theme did not hold true. A great deal of the Isshinryu system kata came from his studies with Kyan Chotoku. Kyan Sensei was known for teaching variations on his system at different times. If you can take the time to review the systems which sprang from the Kyan source you are struck with the fact that there are many differences on each of the kata themes.
Does this mean there was an original score (kata) and Kyan played with it for his own reasons or perhaps to meet the individual needs of those students? Of course there is no answer just the resulting explosion of those students establishing systems.
Looking at the one Kyan student, Shimabuku Tatsuo, he took those themes and actually kept playing jazz with them. When he originally began scoring a system, he first named it for Kyan nickname although eventually he took on the name Isshinryu.
Take one note, the punch. At times he would play it with a twisting punch. At other times he would play it with a vertical punch. Then return to the twisting punch and finally turn to a vertical punch. Variations on the score. But interestingly, it was Kyan himself who felt the vertical punch was strongest for him, being Kyan. Shimabuku Tatsuo choosing it as the major theme in his work remained honoring his instructor’s own belief’s.
Then he played with his audience, being one’s students. In some sense when he began teaching the American Marines in the mid 1950’s he began to create a new theme with his kata. Stances, punches, and perhaps even embusen were changed for them. He had crystallized his new work and named it. New students without any conception were a blank score to write against. But the American’s were only part of his audience. As when a classical composer breaks new ground and the audience walks out, so did many of his students on Okinawa leave. Whether it was the presence of the Americans or the new score replacing the older one is not an easy question to answer. Shimabuku responded with more freedom permitting both scores to play in the same hall at the same time. So the Okinawan students most often used twisting punches, and the American students used the vertical ones.
As he taught, jazz might be a worthy explanation as he often varied the kata for the individual student. Most American students were there for 1 and ½ years. Some will remark (as my own instructor) that they observed Shimabuku’s varying practices. Others most likely zoning in on their own training, didn’t observe the jazz themes. This being a common theme in the student at all times.
Then those works, the students, returned to the USA and began teaching…. The Classical Art of Isshinryu.
Frankly they were in excess of 90% on the same score, but the minor differences and the distances involved over the US did much to break them into camps of ‘correct’ practice. In 1964 Shimabuku Tatsuo taught in Pittsburgh, Pa. For 6 months, and he had returned to the older score for the kata including the twisting punches. Returning for a quick visit in 1966 he had changed his theme again.
Perhaps Shimabuku Tatsuo was a Classical Jazz musician.
** Interlude 1 * *
Shimabuku Tatsuo never did recover the Okinawan strength in his Isshinryu. For many reasons on his death it appears most of his students choose not to remain with his son, leaving karate or migrating to other systems. Yet the system did prosper, abet overseas in the United States and other environs. But with the efforts of his son in law a new generation of Okinawan Isshirnyu continued and from what I understand is re-making the name on Okinawa itself.
** Second Movement – Always Faithful
My instructor, Tom Lewis (or following Okinawan sensibilities Lewis, Tom) followed the themes laid down by Shimabuku Tatsuo during his days on Okinawa. Kihon, Kata and Kumite (Sport Style American). In kata, he was fluid, making changes as he choose. To us his students, that was simply the way of our classes. In fact, the 15 or so instructors were the vehicles of the change. They would teach a kata as they understood it, each direct from Sensei Lewis, and often different from each other. Then they demanded we execute the kata as they taught it when they were teaching. Of course you didn’t have to just remember the kata variation, but also the instructor who taught it that way.
Now there would be those who would then charge heresy! Fiddle faddle, that was simply the way we trained. Sensei was always watching, and was mostly concerned about correct execution of the version we were doing.
The outsider would say, what’s the big deal, they were mostly the same kata, and they were. But the small changes in technique, angle or flow, kept the basic themes very alive for us.
Sensei taught as he was taught. He demonstrated and corrected, but did not explain. Those of us who stayed and trained often sought out our own answers. For example we thought the kata may have been varied to place better in open karate competition. In fact Sensei may have used that as part of his motive on occasion. But many years later I discovered those variations weren’t from his own efforts, but rather from the observations of the differences being taught on Okinawa.
** Interlude 2 - * *
You may notice I did not mention Bunkai (actually a Japanese term and not of Okinawan origin). Bunkai were not part of the study. Shimabuku Tatsuo did demonstrate many self defense techniques in public, and they were all based on kata technique, but formal study of kata technique application was NOT part of his curriculum. You cannot conclude that it didn’t exist, but likely was reserved for the most advanced students. Given hundreds of athletic Marines over the years, all conditioned to follow orders, and only having a year or a year and a half, it would not be difficult to construct why this training did not follow.
Later American’s trying to take other studies (books, magazines, other instructors) trying to get Okinawa to explain Bunkai often were met with resistance. One of my seniors who trained in Okinawa in 71, years later did return and tried to question the son in law on those points. He met with stiff resistance, making me conclude that our external understanding of what a system might include does not necessarily compel the Okinawan’s to comply with our definitions. Of course in this my and our experience is simply too shallow for a complete definition.
** Third Movement – New Beginnings * *
When I began to teach, I found myself in much the same circumstances as the American originators of our systems. I was on my own, with nobody looking over my shoulder, teaching a system that at that time had no available formal templates or scores, and except for my instructors and friends best wishes, was free and authorized to follow my own instincts.
Of course at first, my themes were incomplete. I tried teaching as I practiced as a Brown Belt, far to intense for students. I learned to begin with a simpler melody, and consciously picked a classical approach to instruction. Kata became fixed without jazz. I became a specialist in teaching youth and felt a classical score would be more pleasing, instead of confusing them with jazz.
O' I made them aware of its existence but only in a more theoretical manner.
As this continued I followed my own studies in the infinite, dissonance and harmony together. Many systems, instructors and theories. Magazines, books, videos, clinics and camps followed. I became aware of the lack of understanding, the ‘bunkai’ and sought to find its place.
My studies led me to many places. As has been mentioned many times, in those days almost nobody worked application of kata in any depth. One of my instructors and close friend, with incredible depth of knowledge in his Chinese system applications, never once showed me what might be there. Instead he lead me by asking leading questions and followed my working out the answers myself.
Another instructor followed a different path (yet akin to the Chinese) and to his close students (Dan level only) taught Bunkai, but Bunkai as a mnemonic device. Each kata, had ‘hidden’ applications , not related to the technique in most cases, at different movement points. Thus his system became a symphony of jutsu techniques, perhaps several thousand, taught in specific order. A San Dan working the 4th movement point in Hangetsu would be learning a specific technique, as opposed to a Sho Dan working the same 4th movement point in the same kata. The techniques are marvelous, and when executed complete the destruction of an opponent. The student never works to undertand a movement. Instead they work to learn the movement and how to apply them, then the tactical choices between their various studies.
Actually in my friends Northern Chinese system a similar methodology is followed. Every form technique has one and only one application. But their forms are so long and complex, and in such diverse numbers, they eventually learn thousands of techniques, and the tactics surrounding them. Thus the student does not attempt to figure out movement potential. They have no time to do it, instead they practice.
On counterpoint, we have so much available literature where Okinawan instructors will discuss or show a basic application, and re-iterate that now the student must study to learn new on their own. Of course if you do take the time to work something out for yourself, it becomes more valuable to one, but so much time is left to re-create the studies of others that might be more profitably spent on practice for better execution.
In my own case, I would work hard to understand how a movement in a kata would work.. On several occasions I didn’t like the answer I found, and discovered how small changes in the kata would create a more workable technique. Then when I could make it work, it became so meaningful I would then follow through and make change to the kata and teach it anew. So my classical work became slowly fluid. Not in great detail, but in several small key movements.
Eventually my studies in application began to understand underlying themes, and greater depth of potential uses followed.
** Fourth Movement – the Superman * *
One day the phone rang, I could make a symphony of phones ringing influencing my studies. But from that ring cam the Superman, one who spent the past 40 years taking those inspired demonstrations of Shimabuku Tatsuo and working on the themes of kata application. He is Sherman Harrill (ok, Harrill, Sherman), who would kill me for calling him a Superman,but no other term really applies. He began in Okinawa alongside my instructor, and fell in love with and really mastered the application of kata. Any movement becomes hours of potential applications.
The themes I worked out myself, shown forth in his work, but with literally decades of work in advance of my own studies. His basic theme, was ignore the differences between our different Isshirnyu kata, and look at how much they have in common. Next he works very hard to never change the kata as he studied it (although he is one of my sources on Shimabuku Tatsuo’s own changes), but allows the jazz to shine in his approach to applications. Where the kata become unchanging, the kata application become the most fluid possible.
Movement would be applied in any angle, any attack, sub movement would be utilized, so any strike might be used for many sub-component strikes, all with great effect. Locks, grabs, strikes ,throws, chokes and more come flowing forth.
As time passes, his movement becomes akin to your own, and you follow similar paths applying more and more of the classical studies..
He also becomes a counter-point to the changes, giving reason to re-consider the classical anew.
Kata no longer has only one or several themes. Any one has hundreds and more, and newer works beckon, crossing technique from the various kata for greater effect.
** Ending * *
Well from classical jazz I’m surrounded with many themes and choices. I wonder each day what is the best answer, what choice should I make today following an older theme, or beginning a new melody.
How do I, as the instructor, create a stronger approach for the student? Must they follow my path, or should I fix the path to give them greater skill and freedom?
I do not possess the wisdom or knowledge to know which will follow, but boy do I love the sound of the music I can participate in creating.
** Exit Music * *
What is the sound of one hand slapping? Lean closer and I will show it to you!
Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
Kata Classical Jazz – a Magnum Opus
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Bill Glasheen
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Kata Classical Jazz – a Magnum Opus
Victor
Very thoughtful and thought provoking. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I think a creative instructor must always be asking "What matters?" Certain elements are fixed. As they say, sanchin always thrusts off the back leg side. But exactly what is important beyond that? Funny...I can remember as a very young instructor making marks on a piece of paper during tests for every time I saw a foot in sanchin stance not at the correct angle or in the correct place. That's fine but...I missed giving credit (or extra credit) to those who had truly internalized the motions and made something of the movements that were possible within the form. So what became more important was the fundamental that a foot position complemented. Sometimes...a great practitioner actually created magic by varying posture around a median position. What was once rigid was suddenly fluid looking and natural. What once seemed important suddenly appeared to be confining. Weird...
But just try explaining that to a beginner.
- Bill
Very thoughtful and thought provoking. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
This is a good question. As I look around me in my own systems of martial art, I see many approaches. And you know what? Different students are attracted to different approaches. There are some instructors who have strong opinions and practice their own version of the world quite well. There is a certain kind of person who wants an instructor like that, and another who cannot tolerate it. On the other hand, there are other instructors who teach more along the lines of principles, and allow much freedom for the individual. This method frustrates many, but is appealing for another type.How do I, as the instructor, create a stronger approach for the student? Must they follow my path, or should I fix the path to give them greater skill and freedom?
I think a creative instructor must always be asking "What matters?" Certain elements are fixed. As they say, sanchin always thrusts off the back leg side. But exactly what is important beyond that? Funny...I can remember as a very young instructor making marks on a piece of paper during tests for every time I saw a foot in sanchin stance not at the correct angle or in the correct place. That's fine but...I missed giving credit (or extra credit) to those who had truly internalized the motions and made something of the movements that were possible within the form. So what became more important was the fundamental that a foot position complemented. Sometimes...a great practitioner actually created magic by varying posture around a median position. What was once rigid was suddenly fluid looking and natural. What once seemed important suddenly appeared to be confining. Weird...
But just try explaining that to a beginner.
- Bill
Kata Classical Jazz – a Magnum Opus
Bill,
Reading through Harry Cooks 'Shotokan Karate - A Precise History' this evening, the following quote from Choshin Chibana stands out (page 36).
" Karate, as it is transmitted, changes every few years. This is a common phenomenon. It happens because a teacher must continue to learn and adds his personality to the teachings. Thsere is an old Okinawan martial arts saying that states that karate is much like a pond. In order for the pond to live, it must have fresh water . It must have streams that feed the pond and replenish it. If this is not done then the pond becomes stagnant and dies. If the martial arts teacher does not receive an infusion of new ideas/methods, then he too dies. He stagnates and, through boredom, dies of unatural causes."
...
"Many of today's practitioners are too timid in their training. They train with the thought of being able to finish and not with the thought of progressing - pushing yourself to become better. You must train hard if you want to progress, otherwise you are just a medicore practitioner, and there are many of them. If you wish to learn medicore karate, go somewhere else and do not waist my time"
"If a teacher teaches with his heart he can only expect the student to train with their heart. It is only right - then both the teacher and the student progresses. The student motivates the teacher and the teacher teaches the studetn the correct attitude and spirit of the Okinawan martial arts. This is good training - the student and the teacher progressing toghether."
"When you train you have to devote yourself only to the way of karate - think of nothing else. Do not think of others, or what they may think. You must develop the abilty to focus your mind, hands and feet strongly. You must not only learn body movements but also research and study the art itself."
Boy, it is interesting how a line of reason develops. You take a theme, work with it, share it and the responses, and then further information seems to present itself as a part of the discussion.
Wish I had known Chiniba Sensei. Glad I can share his thoughts with everyone here.
BTW, Harry Cook's book (if you can find a copy from Tsunami Press) is a marvelous discussion on Shotokan's development and fracturing within Japan and beyond. I'm fascinated as it fortells the same story that Isshinryu would face in the USA, and perhaps illustrates the human condition as applies to Karate Organization development.
It certainly gives me things to think about.
Victor
Reading through Harry Cooks 'Shotokan Karate - A Precise History' this evening, the following quote from Choshin Chibana stands out (page 36).
" Karate, as it is transmitted, changes every few years. This is a common phenomenon. It happens because a teacher must continue to learn and adds his personality to the teachings. Thsere is an old Okinawan martial arts saying that states that karate is much like a pond. In order for the pond to live, it must have fresh water . It must have streams that feed the pond and replenish it. If this is not done then the pond becomes stagnant and dies. If the martial arts teacher does not receive an infusion of new ideas/methods, then he too dies. He stagnates and, through boredom, dies of unatural causes."
...
"Many of today's practitioners are too timid in their training. They train with the thought of being able to finish and not with the thought of progressing - pushing yourself to become better. You must train hard if you want to progress, otherwise you are just a medicore practitioner, and there are many of them. If you wish to learn medicore karate, go somewhere else and do not waist my time"
"If a teacher teaches with his heart he can only expect the student to train with their heart. It is only right - then both the teacher and the student progresses. The student motivates the teacher and the teacher teaches the studetn the correct attitude and spirit of the Okinawan martial arts. This is good training - the student and the teacher progressing toghether."
"When you train you have to devote yourself only to the way of karate - think of nothing else. Do not think of others, or what they may think. You must develop the abilty to focus your mind, hands and feet strongly. You must not only learn body movements but also research and study the art itself."
Boy, it is interesting how a line of reason develops. You take a theme, work with it, share it and the responses, and then further information seems to present itself as a part of the discussion.
Wish I had known Chiniba Sensei. Glad I can share his thoughts with everyone here.
BTW, Harry Cook's book (if you can find a copy from Tsunami Press) is a marvelous discussion on Shotokan's development and fracturing within Japan and beyond. I'm fascinated as it fortells the same story that Isshinryu would face in the USA, and perhaps illustrates the human condition as applies to Karate Organization development.
It certainly gives me things to think about.
Victor
Kata Classical Jazz – a Magnum Opus
Victor, I think I'm beginning to see your dilemma. Ishinnryu is so full of innovations that it is doubly difficult for you to see the applications, or you may even feel that the correct applications have been lost through so many adpatations. I noticed this the first time I went on Donnelly sensei's website; this is a style that has been heavily adapted from the more conservative Okinawan styles. For example, in the Naihanshi sequence on Donnelly's website, in movements no. 15 to 17, the half punch in front of the body is done with an open hand with the palm facing up, instead of with a closed fist with the palm facing down, as in most other styles. This is a radical change, and I think I see the reasoning behind it. The innovator felt that the front block in movement no. 19 should be high enough to cover the face, so he does it with an open hand instead of with a closed fist, as in other styles. However, I think here the innovation is just plain wrong. The sequence no. 15 to 19 in other styles, with the half punch with closed fist, palm facing down, then a front block with closed fist, is more of a strength building exercise than anything else. This is an ancient sequence; you see this in kung fu styles too. If the innovator really wanted to change the sequence into a drill for an open hand front block for the face, I think in the half punch the palm should face down; with the palm up the biomechanics are all wrong. If you're looking for the "original" Naihanshi kata, I think the version given in Nagamine sensei's book, The Essence Of Okinawa Karate Do, is closer to the original.
Kata Classical Jazz – a Magnum Opus
Hi Hawrang,
The originator of the Isshinryu Kata was its founder Shimabuku Tatsuo. Although there are considerable minor variations of the form as he taught them over time.
His studies came directly from Kyan Chotoku, Miyagi Chojun and Motobou Chokoi. There is a strong case that they likewise taught variations on their kata themes too.
I don't see this as good or bad. Within the Nagamine Shoshin's followers, for example, there are those who feel all he demonstrated with his book are the mi (eye) kata, or basic versions for public consumption and beginning students, too.
As your question regarding the open hand technique in Isshinryu Nihanchi, I really cannot explain why the founder chose that version or to even make change to another version. None of his reasons were documented.
But finding application potential of the movements chosen is not the difficulty. As I was waxing poetic (Simonize of course) on the issue of kata change, I don't mean the applications cannot be found, but rather I was trying to explain the instructors delimena (from my perspective) how to make my instruction better. Of course as Bill mentioned, there are different instruction needs for different students too. So my concerns for my students are really addressing my local needs in some part, also.
Of course the application potential for the Isshinryu Nihanchi spear hand versus the short range punch you mention are quite different. That is never better or worse, for you still have other choices where you can address an attack with many different techniques.
While I do not have enough knowledge to begin to address this for Ueichi Ryu (our hosts) in many Shorin based organizations there is considerable variance how the kata are performed.
In no small part this rolls back to Chosen Chiniba's comments on change being a necessary component of keeping the arts alive, too.
Unfortunately, often the avaiable text or video record shows but a slice of the options available within a system. With time one learns to use those tools only as guideposts.
In that vein I chose to recommend Mr. Norbert Donnelly's site for the Isshinryu kata. His protrayal does not necessarily show the version/variations I practice, but as over 90% of his and my own are the same, it does facilitiate communication in arenas such as this.
If you are further interested in the Isshinryu system, I would recommend Mr. Donnally as a good source to begin looking.
Have a great weekend.
Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
The originator of the Isshinryu Kata was its founder Shimabuku Tatsuo. Although there are considerable minor variations of the form as he taught them over time.
His studies came directly from Kyan Chotoku, Miyagi Chojun and Motobou Chokoi. There is a strong case that they likewise taught variations on their kata themes too.
I don't see this as good or bad. Within the Nagamine Shoshin's followers, for example, there are those who feel all he demonstrated with his book are the mi (eye) kata, or basic versions for public consumption and beginning students, too.
As your question regarding the open hand technique in Isshinryu Nihanchi, I really cannot explain why the founder chose that version or to even make change to another version. None of his reasons were documented.
But finding application potential of the movements chosen is not the difficulty. As I was waxing poetic (Simonize of course) on the issue of kata change, I don't mean the applications cannot be found, but rather I was trying to explain the instructors delimena (from my perspective) how to make my instruction better. Of course as Bill mentioned, there are different instruction needs for different students too. So my concerns for my students are really addressing my local needs in some part, also.
Of course the application potential for the Isshinryu Nihanchi spear hand versus the short range punch you mention are quite different. That is never better or worse, for you still have other choices where you can address an attack with many different techniques.
While I do not have enough knowledge to begin to address this for Ueichi Ryu (our hosts) in many Shorin based organizations there is considerable variance how the kata are performed.
In no small part this rolls back to Chosen Chiniba's comments on change being a necessary component of keeping the arts alive, too.
Unfortunately, often the avaiable text or video record shows but a slice of the options available within a system. With time one learns to use those tools only as guideposts.
In that vein I chose to recommend Mr. Norbert Donnelly's site for the Isshinryu kata. His protrayal does not necessarily show the version/variations I practice, but as over 90% of his and my own are the same, it does facilitiate communication in arenas such as this.
If you are further interested in the Isshinryu system, I would recommend Mr. Donnally as a good source to begin looking.
Have a great weekend.
Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
Kata Classical Jazz – a Magnum Opus
'all he( Nagamine Shoshin) put in his books were the mi(eye) kata...'
Yes, and only the half of those.You can not possibly learn even the basic kata of matsubayashi ryu frommthat book.Unless you had actual training in the system.
He only shows the beginning and end of each move, not the middle, which can and does vary, and not the ower delivery system of the style, and not the applications at all, but he did in fact teach those, not to all. but to some.
Bunkai is taught systematically as bunkai kata, two person performaces, teaching principles more than techniques.Really effectve apps were only taught to a few, and they taught only a few, and I was lucky to have been one.
I saw Donnelly Sensei's site, very impressive and his apps are very, very smooth and well done.Good stuff there.Loved the dump from Wanshu, beautiful.
As for movement nineeteen of Naihanchi, I have seen film of Tatsuo doing Naihanchi as done by Kobayashiryu, no different at all.
And I've seen it the way its normally done in Isshinryu.The palm up technique is seen exactly that way in the Goju ru kata Supariinpei. or Pecchurin, the most advanced kata of Goju. Criticizing it for showing up in Naihanchi is not really valid, as I understand Tatsuo sensei was also a Goju instructor.
When I do Naihanchi or other kata they are not necessarily done the same way each time.variations are part of advanced kata training in Okinawan Shorin ryu styles.For others, I can not speak.
Tell you this much
pen or closed hands are purely a matter of preference.
Regards,
John
Yes, and only the half of those.You can not possibly learn even the basic kata of matsubayashi ryu frommthat book.Unless you had actual training in the system.
He only shows the beginning and end of each move, not the middle, which can and does vary, and not the ower delivery system of the style, and not the applications at all, but he did in fact teach those, not to all. but to some.
Bunkai is taught systematically as bunkai kata, two person performaces, teaching principles more than techniques.Really effectve apps were only taught to a few, and they taught only a few, and I was lucky to have been one.
I saw Donnelly Sensei's site, very impressive and his apps are very, very smooth and well done.Good stuff there.Loved the dump from Wanshu, beautiful.
As for movement nineeteen of Naihanchi, I have seen film of Tatsuo doing Naihanchi as done by Kobayashiryu, no different at all.
And I've seen it the way its normally done in Isshinryu.The palm up technique is seen exactly that way in the Goju ru kata Supariinpei. or Pecchurin, the most advanced kata of Goju. Criticizing it for showing up in Naihanchi is not really valid, as I understand Tatsuo sensei was also a Goju instructor.
When I do Naihanchi or other kata they are not necessarily done the same way each time.variations are part of advanced kata training in Okinawan Shorin ryu styles.For others, I can not speak.
Tell you this much
pen or closed hands are purely a matter of preference.Regards,
John
Kata Classical Jazz – a Magnum Opus
Impressive thread!!!
Victor, I am in awe of your ability to verbalize this material. kusanku, you are a delight and so is every other poster in here.
Victor's post gave me pause to think about the idea of what amounts to an apostolic teaching system - that of having disciples hand down the teachings of the originator.
In any system that relies on this method of teaching, variation will creep in, regardless of how strongly everyone believes in the One True Way.
Partly, it is a matter of linguistics, particularly in translating Okinawan/Japanese language into English, partly it is a matter of physical capability (some of us don't do certain techniques as well as variations) and some of it, as Victor and kusanku both point out, comes from the originator's own variations on the theme.
In jazz, even classical jazz, variations, minor and sometimes major, are part of the art. Listen to Marian McPartland and Dave Brubeck play something by Duke Ellington and you will hear what I mean. Both take the essence of the music and add their own interpretation to it. Even a college jazz band, attempting to play the piece note perfect in concert will vary tone, inflection and dynamics from the original. It is human nature.
Also, we move into the area of memory. Human memory is fallible, colored by our own opinions, prior training, attitudes and even our emotional states.
When someone takes six months training in Okinawa with one of the Masters and returns home, there will be loss of nuances and outright loss of some of the information imparted. Partly due to the information being over written by current experience and part from "missing the thread" of a fine point to just plain going back to doing what you have been doing for years - conditioning if you will.
Hence, there is no One True Way in any style (IMHO), but Many Similar Paths leading to the same mountaintop.
And who says that there's only One mountain?
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Victor, I am in awe of your ability to verbalize this material. kusanku, you are a delight and so is every other poster in here.
Victor's post gave me pause to think about the idea of what amounts to an apostolic teaching system - that of having disciples hand down the teachings of the originator.
In any system that relies on this method of teaching, variation will creep in, regardless of how strongly everyone believes in the One True Way.
Partly, it is a matter of linguistics, particularly in translating Okinawan/Japanese language into English, partly it is a matter of physical capability (some of us don't do certain techniques as well as variations) and some of it, as Victor and kusanku both point out, comes from the originator's own variations on the theme.
In jazz, even classical jazz, variations, minor and sometimes major, are part of the art. Listen to Marian McPartland and Dave Brubeck play something by Duke Ellington and you will hear what I mean. Both take the essence of the music and add their own interpretation to it. Even a college jazz band, attempting to play the piece note perfect in concert will vary tone, inflection and dynamics from the original. It is human nature.
Also, we move into the area of memory. Human memory is fallible, colored by our own opinions, prior training, attitudes and even our emotional states.
When someone takes six months training in Okinawa with one of the Masters and returns home, there will be loss of nuances and outright loss of some of the information imparted. Partly due to the information being over written by current experience and part from "missing the thread" of a fine point to just plain going back to doing what you have been doing for years - conditioning if you will.
Hence, there is no One True Way in any style (IMHO), but Many Similar Paths leading to the same mountaintop.
And who says that there's only One mountain?
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Kata Classical Jazz – a Magnum Opus
'N' thus the need for, in addition to the Apostolic succession:-), a Book( and or videos) corectly docuenting for the initiates, the basic forms.
A la Nagamine.
For those who have had any actual training,in that system, it is possible to learn the forms from the book.
The Bubishi, shows some of the inner secrets of what we call tuite and kyushojutsu these days.
I refer particularly not to the theoretical TCM based stuff, but the empirically derived 'this works stuff." Again, like Nagamine's book, the Bubishi is geared to the adept or the one who has had the apostolic training if you will.
And then there are those key words the Chinese use and pass down as songs, or the 'chops'-inscribed stones- of Wing Chun, or the Tai Chi Classics, wherein are detaioled the principles and technical uniquities of a system.
And now today, we have some books which spill the beans completely.
But you still need some actual instruction, as a book on bricklaying will not itself teach you to be a bricklayer.
Got to get the trowel and hands on and mortar experience for that.
Has Daswe Knowledge, Der Seekrets,:-) been losted. No Mis Amigos, she has not been such!
Merely misplaced for a while.
What needs be, however, is for people not to worry so about underlying theories of techniques dating back millennia.Empirically, the correct techniques done as they should be, are sound.
What is necessary, is this: We must have the actual techniques, the actual power delivery system for them, and the correct body mechanics to do them, correct methods( there are more than one) in which to train them, and then,our applications will be correct.
Don't let ch'i, or TMC, or 'magic', scare you away from reality.Nor should one allow them or similar things to entice one into believing in magic, with no foundation of reality.
Lee, now, I understand is something of a hypnotist, and so knows that, yes, a person can be manipulated in some ways with no physical contact, during a fight.Eyes, body language, posture, and gesture, as well as kiai, can all be utilized here.
None of it need be explained by any supernatural powers or abilities but the effects are there.'Glare inthe eyes with fast hands.'
Anyone reading on either side of that debate,I don't wanna hear about it.I too, can do 'magic'.Probably better'n many.And like all true magic, its misdirection, skill, and training behind it everytime.
As for kyusho, those exist.They are points on or in the body where accessiblilly is enabled to hurty processes.:-)
As for kyushojutsu, it has to do with body mechanics applied to those places.
All this stuff is taught via kata, or can be, and can once learned in however way, be ploughed back into kata training, and should be.
The secrets of karate can be actually, ploughed into a very few movements, such as wa uke, shuto uke, step and front kick, and punch-block.
Why, they could all be contained in one kata, like sanchin, seisan, or Naihanchi.
Just as long as we know that, it isn't lost. But , it does help to have been shown, good fortune in teachers is a lot, a lot-maybe everything.
How the shorin stuff was imparted to me.
Had been learning for some time.One day, the teacher says, 'I'm gonna show you some stuff.'
And did. Didn't say a thing about kata, just showed the strikes.
Later I found them all and other such, in kata.
Now somebody had showed him, and I know who, and someone showed that one, and I know who.Apostolic succession.:-)
Could people find them without someone showing them?Yes. But it'd take a while.Unless they were given clues like, look for any unusual two handed blocking or striking movements in your kata.
But of course, that would never be told the Uninitiated.Ooops.
Once again, even knowing how to find the stuff, the power delivery system, the tai sabaki and tai kawashi, footork and angles, are in the katas of each system and need to be trained, with all the other stuff I mentioned and maybe more things, to make this really effective.
Otherwise, lots of pretty moves, oh, look at the Ancient art of karate, once and still, a Secret.
But there are those willing to share this knowledge, and we have been fortunate to have many show up or channel information through these forums.
Then there is the new knowledge, the grappling, BJJ etc, High Gear Suits, scenario training, and like that .
It's all good.All goes with the stuff mentioned, too.
Yes, this is a good thread.
Regards,
John
A la Nagamine.
For those who have had any actual training,in that system, it is possible to learn the forms from the book.
The Bubishi, shows some of the inner secrets of what we call tuite and kyushojutsu these days.
I refer particularly not to the theoretical TCM based stuff, but the empirically derived 'this works stuff." Again, like Nagamine's book, the Bubishi is geared to the adept or the one who has had the apostolic training if you will.
And then there are those key words the Chinese use and pass down as songs, or the 'chops'-inscribed stones- of Wing Chun, or the Tai Chi Classics, wherein are detaioled the principles and technical uniquities of a system.
And now today, we have some books which spill the beans completely.
But you still need some actual instruction, as a book on bricklaying will not itself teach you to be a bricklayer.
Got to get the trowel and hands on and mortar experience for that.
Has Daswe Knowledge, Der Seekrets,:-) been losted. No Mis Amigos, she has not been such!
Merely misplaced for a while.
What needs be, however, is for people not to worry so about underlying theories of techniques dating back millennia.Empirically, the correct techniques done as they should be, are sound.
What is necessary, is this: We must have the actual techniques, the actual power delivery system for them, and the correct body mechanics to do them, correct methods( there are more than one) in which to train them, and then,our applications will be correct.
Don't let ch'i, or TMC, or 'magic', scare you away from reality.Nor should one allow them or similar things to entice one into believing in magic, with no foundation of reality.
Lee, now, I understand is something of a hypnotist, and so knows that, yes, a person can be manipulated in some ways with no physical contact, during a fight.Eyes, body language, posture, and gesture, as well as kiai, can all be utilized here.
None of it need be explained by any supernatural powers or abilities but the effects are there.'Glare inthe eyes with fast hands.'
Anyone reading on either side of that debate,I don't wanna hear about it.I too, can do 'magic'.Probably better'n many.And like all true magic, its misdirection, skill, and training behind it everytime.
As for kyusho, those exist.They are points on or in the body where accessiblilly is enabled to hurty processes.:-)
As for kyushojutsu, it has to do with body mechanics applied to those places.
All this stuff is taught via kata, or can be, and can once learned in however way, be ploughed back into kata training, and should be.
The secrets of karate can be actually, ploughed into a very few movements, such as wa uke, shuto uke, step and front kick, and punch-block.
Why, they could all be contained in one kata, like sanchin, seisan, or Naihanchi.
Just as long as we know that, it isn't lost. But , it does help to have been shown, good fortune in teachers is a lot, a lot-maybe everything.
How the shorin stuff was imparted to me.
Had been learning for some time.One day, the teacher says, 'I'm gonna show you some stuff.'
And did. Didn't say a thing about kata, just showed the strikes.
Later I found them all and other such, in kata.
Now somebody had showed him, and I know who, and someone showed that one, and I know who.Apostolic succession.:-)
Could people find them without someone showing them?Yes. But it'd take a while.Unless they were given clues like, look for any unusual two handed blocking or striking movements in your kata.
But of course, that would never be told the Uninitiated.Ooops.
Once again, even knowing how to find the stuff, the power delivery system, the tai sabaki and tai kawashi, footork and angles, are in the katas of each system and need to be trained, with all the other stuff I mentioned and maybe more things, to make this really effective.
Otherwise, lots of pretty moves, oh, look at the Ancient art of karate, once and still, a Secret.
But there are those willing to share this knowledge, and we have been fortunate to have many show up or channel information through these forums.
Then there is the new knowledge, the grappling, BJJ etc, High Gear Suits, scenario training, and like that .
It's all good.All goes with the stuff mentioned, too.
Yes, this is a good thread.
Regards,
John
Kata Classical Jazz – a Magnum Opus
kusanku has raised some interesting points regarding style and such.
One thought that springs to mind is the idea of a style and what that means. A style is exactly that - a way to achieve something based on the talents and abilities of the performer.
When you get right down to it, that's a pretty profound statement (and not mine, I might add). It gets to the point of what I think kusanku was making - while there are only so many ways to hit, block throw and defend, the ways in which these methods are applied and taught constitute a personal style. Which then can evolve into a major Ryu - School of fighting.
In the martial arts, we have developed styles, like Uechi and Shorin that, in many ways are similar to (gasp!) those of the Russian and Italian variations on ballet.
Don't panic! I'm not calling anyone a toe-dancer! But I am saying that the parallels between stylistic differences in the Russian and Italian schools (styles actually)have some certain commonalities with the MA.
There are only so many ways to leap across a stage, to lift your partner and to turn your body. Sound familiar? Yet Isshin-ryu and Uechi-ryu and Shorin-ryu all focus on differing minutae of HOW this is done.
We have chosen to name these various schools of the fist differently. We use somewhat differing terms for what amounts to the same thing and focus on whether the fist is upright or palm down, whether we move to the right or the left and so on.
Much like schools of earlier western fencing, which eventually amalgamated into one primary school of thought with differing teachers - each of whom have their favorite ways of dealing with an opponent's attack (sub-styles if you will), the MA are similar in that we each still have the separated schools of thought and application and, given that we are not restricted to what one weapon in one hand only can do, perhaps this is for the best.
Style, whether with a capitol S (as in the Uechi or Shorin Style) or a small s (as in the way George Mattson or Van Canna teach Uechi-ryu), there will be subtle differences in the WAY the style, form and kata are taught simply because no one is a playback machine.
While I agree with kusanku that video and book records of a style should be made, if nothing else than for historical documentation purposes, we should not lock ourselves or our styles into the concrete idea that "this is Uechi-ryu, this is Shorin-ryu and any variation is something else and to be shunned as Not The True Way."
More to follow
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
One thought that springs to mind is the idea of a style and what that means. A style is exactly that - a way to achieve something based on the talents and abilities of the performer.
When you get right down to it, that's a pretty profound statement (and not mine, I might add). It gets to the point of what I think kusanku was making - while there are only so many ways to hit, block throw and defend, the ways in which these methods are applied and taught constitute a personal style. Which then can evolve into a major Ryu - School of fighting.
In the martial arts, we have developed styles, like Uechi and Shorin that, in many ways are similar to (gasp!) those of the Russian and Italian variations on ballet.
Don't panic! I'm not calling anyone a toe-dancer! But I am saying that the parallels between stylistic differences in the Russian and Italian schools (styles actually)have some certain commonalities with the MA.
There are only so many ways to leap across a stage, to lift your partner and to turn your body. Sound familiar? Yet Isshin-ryu and Uechi-ryu and Shorin-ryu all focus on differing minutae of HOW this is done.
We have chosen to name these various schools of the fist differently. We use somewhat differing terms for what amounts to the same thing and focus on whether the fist is upright or palm down, whether we move to the right or the left and so on.
Much like schools of earlier western fencing, which eventually amalgamated into one primary school of thought with differing teachers - each of whom have their favorite ways of dealing with an opponent's attack (sub-styles if you will), the MA are similar in that we each still have the separated schools of thought and application and, given that we are not restricted to what one weapon in one hand only can do, perhaps this is for the best.
Style, whether with a capitol S (as in the Uechi or Shorin Style) or a small s (as in the way George Mattson or Van Canna teach Uechi-ryu), there will be subtle differences in the WAY the style, form and kata are taught simply because no one is a playback machine.
While I agree with kusanku that video and book records of a style should be made, if nothing else than for historical documentation purposes, we should not lock ourselves or our styles into the concrete idea that "this is Uechi-ryu, this is Shorin-ryu and any variation is something else and to be shunned as Not The True Way."
More to follow
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
-
Malcolm Wagner
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 6:01 am
- Location: Maurepas, La., USA
Kata Classical Jazz – a Magnum Opus
Victor,
I think your article would make an excellent addition to the Isshinkai or any other Isshinryu site. You can change the Superman-reference to "he's a super-guy" to keep Harril Sensei off your case;-)
Isn't it strange that different sites have different personalities, and things you feel comfortable posting about on one site, make you hesitate on another?
Thank you for teaching me on whatever site;-)
Mal Wagner
Dibenedetto's Isshinryu Karate
Hammond, Louisiana
I think your article would make an excellent addition to the Isshinkai or any other Isshinryu site. You can change the Superman-reference to "he's a super-guy" to keep Harril Sensei off your case;-)
Isn't it strange that different sites have different personalities, and things you feel comfortable posting about on one site, make you hesitate on another?
Thank you for teaching me on whatever site;-)
Mal Wagner
Dibenedetto's Isshinryu Karate
Hammond, Louisiana
