All Okinawa Tournament Results

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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Dale

I don't know if what you see in terms of country representation isn't so much political as it is a reflection of interests, logistics, and economics.

First, this WAS - after all - an ALL OKINAWA tournament. Not likely to see Korea represented. Same for Japan. The fact that there weren't very many Okinawans there is likely due more to economics than anything else. Having been there, I can tell you they would have cleaned up in a number of the categories. We had some good people there, but not all brackets were highly competitive. One kata division only had two participants!!

Second, each country has its own level of interest in this kind of activity. I have a personal hypothesis on this... I think countries like Canada that have oppressive gun control laws and/or fewer competing sports will likely have a very strong interest in TRADITIONAL martial arts. There are so many distractions in the United States that pull good people away from practicing traditional arts. And the practice has waxed and waned with all the fads that come and go, and all the movies/TV that give it exposure (or not).

Third, each country has its own way of going about an activity like this. When Bruce Hirabayashi went to set up a Uechi school in Germany, he found them to be almost comically organized about everything. He did a kind of "Parks and Recreation" model there, which takes advantage of some government funds and the German way of organizing everything. We noted that countries like Brazil - very well represented at the tournament - actually had corporate sponsorship. All the team members had warm-up suits with Bell South on the back. Frankly I thought the Brazilians were the best organized of any country. The US did well because it was their home court.

Finally, I found it interesting to note that the obsession with NHB fighting and "reality" fighting didn't stop the Brazilians from showing up with a top-notch, traditional Shorin Ryu team that kicked butt. Consider that Brazilian jiu-jitsu is the latest NHB fad. It sure didn't stop the traditionalists from doing very well - far from home.

As for Europe and Asia, well it was represented, but in small numbers and pretty much by individual financing. There were two competitors representing Greece, but they were visitors to the US and have been working out in Gary Khoury's dojo. We even had a few competitors from some Arab nations. But none of the big European countries were there. Oh well...

I have an attitude about events like this. If you didn't show up, you don't count. "Could have" and "would have" doesn't mean squat. The winners were the ones who had the courage, the discipline, and the organization to show up and make it or break it on the mat. Everyone else ***** until they can prove otherwise under identical conditions. Image

- Bill
Dale Knepp
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Post by Dale Knepp »

Bill,

Over all, your response is very well taken. I really only meant to spur you on to go over the dynamics of all that plays into an event of this magnitude.

I agree with all of you points, especially, on the economics factors. All to often very good practitioners get over looked for that reason alone. But, as you say if they can't make it to the event then they will not count. 'Tis a pity, I'm afraid.

Actually, I'm glad to see the United States and Brazil so well represented with the trend to see "reality" as purveyed in the Ultimate Fighting Championship.

Traditional karate should have nothing to do with fighting as there is nothing in the meaning of the words, "karate, kempo, or kumite" that suggest fighting. The actual meanings (if one takes a look at the etymology of any and all of them) are in the manner of using the hands and one's actions or behavior. Most Okinawans with few exceptions, I think, would agree that self protection (not fighting per se) and development of good character are the main issues to transmit to students.

Dale
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Deb Downing found this site and passed it around. The results speak for themselves. Look to the bottom of each page to scroll through. Kata are on the earlier pages, and sparring on the latter pages.

Tournament Results

- Bill
Dale Knepp
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Post by Dale Knepp »

Bill,

Thanks for posting the web link. Do you know how many countries were represented at the tournament? Is there a complete list?

It looks like most of the competitors were from North and South America along with some Okinawans. I didn't see any European countries listed as finalists. Were anyone competitors from Europe?

It would also be interesting to see the breakdown of how many competitors from each country, just to see what the ratio is between the place winners to number of competitors from each country. That would give a better estimate of what the quality of training from the different countries might be.

I don't know who compiled the list but the last time I checked the map Okinawa was not its own country. But then again, it didn't look like there were any competitors from mainland Japan. Reading between the lines I sense that there maybe a political message hiding.

Dale
gusaas
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Post by gusaas »

Bill Glasheen wrote
" I think countries like Canada that have oppressive gun control laws "

My country has very enlightened gun laws in contrast to the USA and its juvenile "Wild West" every one has the right to pack heat mentality.

Larry Gusaas
Allen M.

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Post by Allen M. »

I've read about Canada's gun laws many times last year, and how they almost inspired a ciizen's revolt as well as are virtually unenforecable.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Wild West... every one has the right to pack heat mentality.
<font color=red>Everyone</font> <font color=blue>should</font> <font color=red>have</font> <font color=blue>the</font> <font color=red>right</font> <font color=blue>to</font> <font color=red>pack</font> <font color=blue>physically</font> <font color=red>in</font> <font color=blue>the</font> <font color=red>United</font> <font color=blue>States</font> with certain exceptions including but not limited to criminality and health issues.

------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
gusaas
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Post by gusaas »

Allen,
The "citizen's revolt" was a small, very outspoken minority, mainly in western Canada.
The laws they are protesting are about registering long guns.

Handguns have been restricted and controlled for a long time. Canadians DO NOT have the right to carry, thank God. The recent protests were not about this issue.A large number of Americans also disagree with you.

Bill,
I don't see how gun control would create an interest in traditional martial arts. Most people here seem more interested in the sport version of them.

Larry Gusaas
P.S. I live in western Canada
Guest

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Post by Guest »

Larry,

Nice to hear from another Canadian. Nice to hear from another Westerner. Please don't presume to speak for all Westerners or all Canadians. Thanks for sharing your opinions and welcome to the forums!

Please attempt to be polite, nothing is accomplished by calling a country's gun laws "juvenile wild west......pack heat mentality."

You might be surprised to find a few neighbors to the south who agree with your point of view. There are people who are wrong in the south too. Image

I think our neighbors to the south should be commended for incorporating there rights to bear arms in their constitution. Had the Fathers of Confederation had a little more foresight we would have a lot less law abiding citizens living as secret criminals.

Small outspoken minority in western Canada? Larry your wrong its a small murmur from the silent majority.

Most of us have just decided not to register our long arms and have stocked up on ammunition. Illegal firearms are not a big stretch for most of us. Our sidearms have been illegal for half a century.

Larry our gun laws in my opinion are not enlightened they are oppressive. I grew up on a trap line, hunted partridge at 8, deer at 12, served in the military,I now need a F.A.C. to purchase ammunition?

Generations of my family went to war to prevent this kind of oppression,now my own country rams it down my throat......makes you want to either leave home or fire a few rounds doesn't it! Image

BTW I have next to no interest in sport karate Larry. Tag is just not what it's about for me. I agree with Bill, some of us,not all, dig a little deeper because our hands have been tied by the political system. Hmmmmm just occurs too me that's how kobudo started in okininawa. Image

Laird




[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited August 26, 2001).]
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Post by Guest »

BTW, I,ve neglected to congratulate all who attended the tournament,and all who did well. I'm sure everyone grew by attending!

Being from Alberta I was especially happy to see that Manuel Desa placed first in his Kata Division. Neil Dunnigan seems too have created a real hot bed of Uechi/Shohei Ryu in Edmonton. Boston is a long way off but these folks are only a 4 hour drive!

I notice in the results a Mathew Desa in the 6/10 male Kata. Did papa and son both win their divisions?

Nice too see some folks from Northern Alberta doing so well at the worlds! Mean while at the world track and field meet in Edmonton(while they were in Atlanta) we got our ass kicked.

..........hey can these guys run too? Image

Laird
gusaas
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Post by gusaas »

Laird,

Thanks for the welcome. I've been lurking for months and finally decided to open my big mouth.

"Please attempt to be polite, nothing is accomplished by calling a country's gun laws "juvenile wild west......pack heat mentality."
You're probably right. However, I get somewhat irritated when an American calls my country's laws oppressive. After all, the UN has several times named Canada the best country in the world to live in.I doubt that they would do so if our laws were oppressive. Besides, most civilized countries have more "oppressive"?/enlightened gun countrol laws than Canada.

"You might be surprised to find a few neighbors to the south who agree with your point of view."

Yes, I am aware that there ar a multitude of Americans who are very aware of the need for effective gun controls in a civilized society.

"Small outspoken minority in western Canada? Larry your wrong its a small murmur from the silent majority."

Ha! Canada's radical right has been unsuccesively trying to sell this line for years. However, their Day is ending and Stock's well has run dry.

"Larry our gun laws in my opinion are not enlightened they are oppressive."

To me, it would be oppressive to live in a society where anyone walking down the street might be carrying a handgun and decide that they don't like me. Or to be afraid to honk your horn at the idiot who cut you off on the freeway in case they are packing and decide to shoot you for pointing out their inconsiderate manners. The worst I've experienced is a moron waving a baseball bat out his window.At least it couldn't harm me from a distance. Gee!! If we could carry handguns in Canada, I could have pulled out my Glock and rid the world of a moron. But in that case it probably wouldn't have been a baseball bat that he waved at me!

"Generations of my family went to war to prevent this kind of oppression"

Having to register your guns is oppression? I just don't understand this type of reasoning? I have to register my car and have a license to drive it. What's the difference?

"BTW I have next to no interest in sport karate Larry. Tag is just not what it's about for me."

Me either. I'm glad there is at least one thing we can agree on.

Larry Gusaas

P.S. I see you have removed your oxymoronic statement about law abiding citizens being secret criminals. I was going to rant about it but now I'll have to resist.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Larry

Do they have indoor plumbing where you live? Image

But seriously...you are lucky that this moderator is "fiercely ambivalent" on the subject. Had you posted your comment on another forum, your reception may have been a tad icier (to say the least). I can sit back and see how extreme and emotional both sides are on the subject. Being a health services researcher and a proponent of public health, I fully understand what the medical community deals with in terms of gun violence. However being a scientist, I also understand there is a broader picture that people are just now beginning to get real data to assess. Is the net public health risk reduced with no personal possession of specific types of firearms? There's plenty of evidence that suggests specific types of violence to individuals increases dramatically when citizens lose the right to bear arms. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
To me, it would be oppressive to live in a society where anyone walking down the street might be carrying a handgun and decide that they don't like me. Or to be afraid to honk your horn at the idiot who cut you off on the freeway in case they are packing and decide to shoot you for pointing out their inconsiderate manners
While you think this statement made your case, others would find a bit of irony in it. Think about it.

Please explain to me why a dramatic reduction in death by violence in the city of Richmond is associated with the ability of citizens to carry concealed handguns (with permits, of course). Note I have not implied causality. But the dramatic reduction has snapped a lot of heads to attention. Yes, there are other factors going on here too (aggressive enforcement of existing gun laws, aggressive enforcement of petty crime laws). But as much as I feel queasy about concealed carry, I cannot possibly justify your position that it has resulted in a "Wild West" environment. Furthermore, the data now exist (because of the permits required) to show that those who license to carry concealed are less likely to commit crime. Again, it deserves notice.

Frankly I am personally not as threatened by gun violence as I am by other kinds. I'm much more fearful of a knife at close range than a gun. If you've never trained in disarm tactics, then perhaps you should study this phenomenon. And I am concerned by the evidence that points to a dramatic rise in B&E crimes associated with areas that apply more restrictive gun laws.

Yes, oppressive may have been an unfortunate choice of language from your perspective. But as much as I abhor handguns, as much as I abhor handgun violence, I am also a staunch libertarian. Pardon me for being alarmed at the association between governments taking away individual's firearms and governments subsequently becoming noxiously oppressive. It isn't the government action per se, it's the dangerous potential that exists should some screwball take over in a country. Nazi Germany comes to mind. Pardon me for having little faith in government being involved in most things in our lives. I pay to have my son privately educated because public (government-funded) education is a god-awful mess - particularly for the gifted student. I sure as heck don't want Canadian healthcare. Heck...we have many former Canadian physicians working for our company now because they became so frustrated with that government-run system. And your citizens keep our own healthcare system just south of your border quite busy with important but elective procedures that cannot be addressed by your system. No...the American system is far from perfect. But I'll take my private insurance, thank you, because at least I have the OPPORTUNITY to work hard enough to earn enough money to purchase the amount of healthcare I choose to have.

But all this is a distraction. I see Laird properly addressing the real issue. As he pointed out, we wouldn't have classical Okinawan karate and kobudo if it weren't for the exploitation and oppressive laws of mainland Japan. What we all practice today is largely a piece of underground history. It is codified civil disobedience. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I have a personal hypothesis on this...
And that's as far as I went. I never said Canadians practice more martial arts because they can't have their handguns or long guns. I merely hypothesized - based on history - that there may be more of an interest in empty hand personal protection because of the absence of "the great equalizer." Like it or not, good or bad, god-loving or satanic, it was an observation and a suggestion.

Sorry I pushed a button. But hey, that's why we are here. As long as we keep on topic and avoid the personal stuff, your comments are welcome.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited August 27, 2001).]
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Laird

I was very impressed with Neil Dunnigan's students. I had the pleasure of judging the kata division where Manuel DeSa took first. That was one impressive sanseiryu kata! Strong, and smooth as silk. It's performances like that which make all the long hours of sitting and judging without breaks very much worth it. Edmonton should be proud.

And as you have probably heard by now, several in the Northeast have been very impressed with the sparring skills of a certain neighbor in Nova Scotia.

This is one of the great things about an international tournament like this. So much can be learned by breaking out of the provincial mindset and comparing skills with others around the world. I saw a lot that will take months to digest (and steal Image ).

- Bill
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Post by Guest »

Gusaas,your right at least we agree on some thing. We also agree Mr. Day's career is rapidly reaching it's twilight.

That my friend may be where it ends. Image

Radical right? Stockwell Day? I'm not sure what the radical right is. I've never had a firm grasp on these kind of labels. Are you referring to the reform party?

Who is the middle of the right,left of the right? Who is the far left,middle left,not so left ,radical left,etc.

Labels are dangerous,they put people and ideas in boxes ,not giving them due consideration. Ohhhhh he's coming for far left ,right etc. Placing ideas and people in preconceived boxes and not listening and considering the message. Just my little babble on listening and communicating. Image
(I tend to vote for ideas and individuals not along party lines)

What does the radical right and Stockwell Day have to do with gun control anyway. It was not an election issue.

ohhhhhhhhh I remember now, Jean Chretian the Prime Minister brought up guns during the election. He claimed that Mr. Day had a secret agenda, that he wanted to repeal Canada's long gun registry. Mr. Day was a registered gun owner. The only way the Prime Minister could know this......he accessed the confidential gun registry. That makes me real uncomfortable. I don't envision a day that a LEO would have call to visit me at home but I'm really uncomfortable if he's a little trigger happy because he suspects I may be armed too. The registry has hardly begun and we see political abuse. No thank you.

Re: "I was irritated when an American called my country's laws oppressive" The UN ? So we use to score well on some meaningless survey,what does that have to do with registering specific weapons? Is it okay for me call our gun laws oppressive because I'm a Canadian,but not any non Canadian? Don't post on an international form then.

Larry, why do you think if we allow our citizens weapons, your life may be jeopardy? Road rage is okay without guns? Larry there are many illegal fire arms out there right know. If your afraid of being shot for honking the horn,(are you really ?),presenting the truck drivers salute,etc..You might wish to exercise a little anger management while behind the wheel. BTW your fellow drivers will not improve no mater how many times you honk your horn.

A rifle or side arm is just a tool,so is my hammer,chain saw,screw driver,chisel,knives,etc. Why don't I have to register these tools or have a special license to purchase them. We both know we can inflict deadly force with them.

When will our government require me to register these items. How about the broken branches in the bush. These can be buried deep in the chest with little effort, should we register these as well. How about all the rocks in the country,hell we don't want anyone to access head bashing stones without a course or without paying at least a wee tax or two.

Lets leave party politics out of this discussion.

I personally believe that Canada's long gun registry is a knee jerk reaction to a few women being shot at a Canadian university a few years back. That political lobby rammed gun control down our throats., That small special interest group with it's well oiled well funded political lobby took away my rights to own weapons and purchase ammunition with out all of the red tape. A right that I had for forty years,and a right that we have all held since confederation. I never even had an oppourtunity to vote on the matter. What democracy?

This is not just!

Less government is a good thing!

Hope I haven't come across as rude or too sarcastic,this issue is close to my heart and I can get confrontational at times, If I have offended please accept my apology,that is not my intent,but this whole concept is offensive to me.

Laird

That's all I have too say on this , If this off topic thread continues to grow it might be better served if it were to be moved to a new thread.

[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited August 27, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited August 27, 2001).]
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Post by Guest »

Quote:"and that's all I have to say"

Did anyone really believe this? Image

The government is so fixated on gun control these days they have gone off the deep end.

Take the example of the wardens service. (the warden service is Canadian version of the park rangers in the USA. The Wardens service is responsible for law enforcement in the national parks. They have not been issued sidearms.

They have requested side arms but the powers that be in government say no.

These LEO's are required to arrest poachers in the back country,some times out of radio contact and two days horse back ride from help. The poachers,who tend to be heavily armed and are criminals can face up to 5 years and prison and $100,000.00 fines if convicted.

The warden may be faced with arresting a party of 2 to 6 individuals alone. The warden may have a shot gun,he may have a rifle,he may have pepper spray. The warden is not allowed to use any of these weapons to make the arrest. Regulations say that long guns may be used dispatch predators,(bears etc.) pepper spray may be used to diffuse wildlife conflicts. These items may not be used to subdue the public.

How would you like to chat with a group of poachers who are armed,possess tens of thousands of dollars worth of animal parts. You've got a 308 wrapped in you bed roll behind your saddle and a mag lite on your belt.

Gun control Canadian style, sure hope a warden doesn't die before someone in Ottawa figures out we have a problem here. Image

Laird
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Gentlemen

We have learned a few things here that are off the subject:

1) Larry didn't like my unfortunate choice of words in an off-hand comment about Canadian gun laws.

2) Larry likes Canada's gun laws and doesn't think much of laws and/or attitudes (real or perceived) south of his border.

3) Laird and Allen think differently.

4) Bill likes to poke a pin in a balloon now and then.

5) Bill has some libertarian ideas.

6) There are folks in the background who feel certain ways about some or all of these issues who will write e-mails in the background but won't post.

This would certainly make a great topic. If you folks want to continue it, feel free to start a new thread. Discussions like these have been on Van's forum. If you start one here, I'll try to help keep it fair and let both sides express their feelings.

But I do want to keep the remainder of the comments in this thread about the accomplishments of the many folks who participated in the Okinawan Rengokai World Tournament. These folks deserve their recognition, separate from how the rest of us want to rule the world. Image

- Bill
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