I thought I posted this yesterday but I guess it didn't stick. ANYWAY.
Right now I am struggling ot understand why when we transition from a cat stance facing EAST to a cat stance facing WEST we do not use a cat stance turn. Instead, we drop out of cat and do a sanchin turn and move back into cat.
Jim Thomposon told me that he was never taught the cat stance turn in Uechi.
So now I'm wondering why we don't use them. Please don't answer "because we don't cross our feet in Uechi" since we cross our feet every time we do a sanching turn.
For those who may not know it a cat stance turn goes like this:
Start in a left cat stance. Slide your left leg across your body. Now snap your hips 180 degrees and then transfer your weight to your left foot which now becomes your rear foot. You end up in a right cat stance facing the opposite direction from where you started.
cheers,
Dana
cat stance turns
Moderator: Available
cat stance turns
It may have something to with balance.
I believe the way I learned originally was to get into a sanchin stance then turn then back into a cat stance. But over time, as so many other moves are varied, I learned to utilize the cat stance turn in favor of the sanchin turn.
I believe it is/was a "journeymans" privelige to perform it this way.
I now teach the cat stance to my students because I see it as a quicker and easier turn. However if a student cannot turn with proper balance, I make them get back into sanchin and turn then get back up into the cat stance.
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Len
[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited November 01, 2001).]
I believe the way I learned originally was to get into a sanchin stance then turn then back into a cat stance. But over time, as so many other moves are varied, I learned to utilize the cat stance turn in favor of the sanchin turn.
I believe it is/was a "journeymans" privelige to perform it this way.
I now teach the cat stance to my students because I see it as a quicker and easier turn. However if a student cannot turn with proper balance, I make them get back into sanchin and turn then get back up into the cat stance.
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Len
[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited November 01, 2001).]
cat stance turns
Also using cat stance turn and staying "down" is essential to keeping balance. I like a wide cat stance and often cover a lot of ground on turns. Try it when someone is charging you front on and when the turn is being completed your in fine position to deliver a "clothsline" or back elbow as your weight transfers back..fun to play with
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Bill Glasheen
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cat stance turns
Dana
We really missed you at the regional.
If you want my opinion, debating the "correctness" of one turn over the next in this instance is a waste of time. In my opinion, it's all good. Then again, I have a dan in both Goju and Uechi.
The Goju sanchin has a "front crossover" turn, in contrast to the "back crossover" turn of Uechi ryu. Long after I had a dan in both systems, I noted in seminars of "certain Okinawan masters" that some seemed to make fun of the way things were done in "the other style." Often the arguments had no merit, because the individual showed he obviously didn't know what he was talking about (and I should know...). Basically what I'm trying to say is there is always some degree of jealousy and pettiness in any group or activity.
I know both types of cat stance turns, and I practice and teach both. Often I will stick the "front crossover" turn in seichin kata in my classes, since this kata is rarely done for senior boards. That way my students can practice the movement without ever ruffling anyone's martial feathers. In class drills, I will rapidly change from one method to the next, until people have no problem doing things either way.
In the end, I think you will find that each type of move has its strengths and weaknesses, and each has a time and a place when it is best utilized.
Anyhow, that's my opinion. May the Uechi gods strike me with lightning if I am wro.. BBBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZTTTTTTTT!!!!
*...
We really missed you at the regional.
If you want my opinion, debating the "correctness" of one turn over the next in this instance is a waste of time. In my opinion, it's all good. Then again, I have a dan in both Goju and Uechi.
The Goju sanchin has a "front crossover" turn, in contrast to the "back crossover" turn of Uechi ryu. Long after I had a dan in both systems, I noted in seminars of "certain Okinawan masters" that some seemed to make fun of the way things were done in "the other style." Often the arguments had no merit, because the individual showed he obviously didn't know what he was talking about (and I should know...). Basically what I'm trying to say is there is always some degree of jealousy and pettiness in any group or activity.
I know both types of cat stance turns, and I practice and teach both. Often I will stick the "front crossover" turn in seichin kata in my classes, since this kata is rarely done for senior boards. That way my students can practice the movement without ever ruffling anyone's martial feathers. In class drills, I will rapidly change from one method to the next, until people have no problem doing things either way.
In the end, I think you will find that each type of move has its strengths and weaknesses, and each has a time and a place when it is best utilized.
Anyhow, that's my opinion. May the Uechi gods strike me with lightning if I am wro.. BBBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZTTTTTTTT!!!!
*...
cat stance turns
The cat stance is probably important to develop an awareness of emptyness and solidity, in motion. One side of the body is empty while the other side is solid with the line of the body's center passing through one foot. Whether the movement is to the right or backward, it affords the ability to change direction (and understand the concept of changing force even incoming force) as the body moves. Preferably, the movement is mobilized internally first, then directed externally. Therefore, I agree with Bill that the order and series of movements are less consequential than the speed and harmony (of mind and body - grace?), the outer manifestations, when this is done.
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Joe Graziano
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cat stance turns
My understanding is the Uechi "cat" stance is different from that of other systems and is more of a modified sanchin stance.
Like many, I practice and teach the turn in seichin in a basic way - replanting the foot and turning in sanchin, while practicing and teaching those in sei rui and san se rui in a more flowing, advanced manner - simply turning in a natural way without first replanting the foot in sanchin.
I am familiar with the "crossover" to which you allude, but do not believe it is part of our Uechi technique and in fact clutters the same.
Only my opinion. I'm sure your teacher will provide guidance as to his understanding and preferred method. Good luck.
Like many, I practice and teach the turn in seichin in a basic way - replanting the foot and turning in sanchin, while practicing and teaching those in sei rui and san se rui in a more flowing, advanced manner - simply turning in a natural way without first replanting the foot in sanchin.
I am familiar with the "crossover" to which you allude, but do not believe it is part of our Uechi technique and in fact clutters the same.
Only my opinion. I'm sure your teacher will provide guidance as to his understanding and preferred method. Good luck.
cat stance turns
I was sorry to miss the regional as well -- but work took me to Chicago.
<hr>
The cat stance turn represents a completely different power and weighting dynamic than the sanchin turn.
I was talking with Sensei Jim Thompson at his last seminar and asked him if the techniques we do after we move in Uechi kata represent the techniques we should be doing WHILE we are moving. He said Yes - that's a good way to put it.
So - looking at Seichin kata -- and the pair of scooping blocks in the middle of the form -- you have very different options in how to redirect Uke's attack if you are going to leave the rear foot weighted until a snapping turn and finish of the technique (traditional cat turn) vs. how you blend with Uke's energy if you then weight the front leg to turn off the rear leg. (traditional sanchin turn).
The two turns result in different reactions on the part of Uke. To press forward in order to do a sanchin turn could telegraph to uke that you are turning AND, at the same time it will uproot uke in a direction they may not expect (unless they are uechi-ka). However, in the cat stance turn the weight does not shift until the moment of turning -- so an empty front leg slides across while the hands are listening to the attack and at the moment of over-committment from uke the snapping turns capitalizes on uke's loss of root.
Also - a cat stance turn happens on a tighter circle than a sanchin turn. So if you need to beat the Uke's line of attack -- there are times when a tighter turn would be great to utilize.
I'm not advocating one over the other. I'm advocating variety and exploration.
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited November 02, 2001).]
<hr>
The cat stance turn represents a completely different power and weighting dynamic than the sanchin turn.
I was talking with Sensei Jim Thompson at his last seminar and asked him if the techniques we do after we move in Uechi kata represent the techniques we should be doing WHILE we are moving. He said Yes - that's a good way to put it.
So - looking at Seichin kata -- and the pair of scooping blocks in the middle of the form -- you have very different options in how to redirect Uke's attack if you are going to leave the rear foot weighted until a snapping turn and finish of the technique (traditional cat turn) vs. how you blend with Uke's energy if you then weight the front leg to turn off the rear leg. (traditional sanchin turn).
The two turns result in different reactions on the part of Uke. To press forward in order to do a sanchin turn could telegraph to uke that you are turning AND, at the same time it will uproot uke in a direction they may not expect (unless they are uechi-ka). However, in the cat stance turn the weight does not shift until the moment of turning -- so an empty front leg slides across while the hands are listening to the attack and at the moment of over-committment from uke the snapping turns capitalizes on uke's loss of root.
Also - a cat stance turn happens on a tighter circle than a sanchin turn. So if you need to beat the Uke's line of attack -- there are times when a tighter turn would be great to utilize.
I'm not advocating one over the other. I'm advocating variety and exploration.
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited November 02, 2001).]
cat stance turns
I hear you! The thing I'd like us to consider is the distinctive quality of movement the cat stance affords, how it differs and the clean transmission from full to the empty that it requires.
When it happens cleanly, it is distinctive, occurs in the blink of an eye and as smoothly as the movement of a wave (with the potential explosive energy of that wave hitting a rock).
When it does not, it looks a tad stiff and wobbly.
It's one of those places one can observe inner development, no matter the style.
When it happens cleanly, it is distinctive, occurs in the blink of an eye and as smoothly as the movement of a wave (with the potential explosive energy of that wave hitting a rock).
When it does not, it looks a tad stiff and wobbly.
It's one of those places one can observe inner development, no matter the style.
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rich_simons
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2000 6:01 am
cat stance turns
I was performing this transition in Sei Chin and Sei Ryu for a long time before I was told I was doing it incorrectly. Once it was brought to my attention, I had a great deal of difficulty analyzing both what I was doing and what I "should" be doing.
I find the "correct" way to be rather slow. I find that I am taking too many steps: the raised foot is placed flat on the floor, pivot the back foot, perform the mi wate, raise the front foot.... I am not sure, but think I have been hit by the time I turn around....
I have tried the Goju style turn that Glasheen Sensei describes. I must admit that I like it. Are we that wedded to the confines of what "the style" says we should do that we can not investigate alternatives? There is nothing inherently correct or incorrect about a particular movement. Proponents of a given style can advocate for one interpretation over another, but that does not necessarily mean they are "correct." Correct for you is not necessarily correct for me. Perhaps what works for you does not work for me. When I sit at somebody else's computer terminal, I am not suprised to see that the mouse is in the "wrong" place or that the seat is "too high"....
Rich
[This message has been edited by rich_simons (edited November 09, 2001).]
I find the "correct" way to be rather slow. I find that I am taking too many steps: the raised foot is placed flat on the floor, pivot the back foot, perform the mi wate, raise the front foot.... I am not sure, but think I have been hit by the time I turn around....
I have tried the Goju style turn that Glasheen Sensei describes. I must admit that I like it. Are we that wedded to the confines of what "the style" says we should do that we can not investigate alternatives? There is nothing inherently correct or incorrect about a particular movement. Proponents of a given style can advocate for one interpretation over another, but that does not necessarily mean they are "correct." Correct for you is not necessarily correct for me. Perhaps what works for you does not work for me. When I sit at somebody else's computer terminal, I am not suprised to see that the mouse is in the "wrong" place or that the seat is "too high"....
Rich
[This message has been edited by rich_simons (edited November 09, 2001).]
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gmattson
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cat stance turns
The nice thing about Uechi-ryu, is that techniques can be modified to fit the individual.
I've used both methods and find both very effective if done smoothly, rapidly with attention to awareness of space, distance and timing. Many newer students perform both methods by maintaining a frontal position while moving their feet. Obviously, the intent is to change positions to deal with another attack/situation. Once you commit to turning, your emphasis must be on the new attack/situation. Maintaining a frontal position while moving your feet in a robotic manner simply doesn't work.
Reminds me of people who face front while turning their heads, facing the next position before beginning their turn or angling move. Great way to see the punch hit you!
I've used both methods and find both very effective if done smoothly, rapidly with attention to awareness of space, distance and timing. Many newer students perform both methods by maintaining a frontal position while moving their feet. Obviously, the intent is to change positions to deal with another attack/situation. Once you commit to turning, your emphasis must be on the new attack/situation. Maintaining a frontal position while moving your feet in a robotic manner simply doesn't work.
Reminds me of people who face front while turning their heads, facing the next position before beginning their turn or angling move. Great way to see the punch hit you!
cat stance turns
The great magician Houdini would walk by a store window at a normal pace, looking straight ahead. And then try to recall as many items as possible that he saw in the window from his peripheral vision.
I would love to rely only on my peripheral vision -- but it only works for about 180 of the 360 degrees I need to protect. I agree that a full head turn and stop is not the ideal way to move. And, I train turning my head to lead my movement (note: an instant before) as an exaggeration. So that the response is trained to look before I leap.
I particularly notice that with beginners -- if you don't get them to look before they move they will end up doing a full turn to open kanshiwa kata -- and then turn their head!
Dana
I would love to rely only on my peripheral vision -- but it only works for about 180 of the 360 degrees I need to protect. I agree that a full head turn and stop is not the ideal way to move. And, I train turning my head to lead my movement (note: an instant before) as an exaggeration. So that the response is trained to look before I leap.
I particularly notice that with beginners -- if you don't get them to look before they move they will end up doing a full turn to open kanshiwa kata -- and then turn their head!
Dana
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Allen M.
cat stance turns
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Somehow, George, might it be more prudent (prudenter?) to see the punch and react (like get out of the way) BEFORE it hits youGreat way to see the punch hit you!
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
cat stance turns
I'm very interested in this since Seichin is my current designated kata.
Seichin, I find, has a distinctly different flavor than Sanchin, Kanshiwa and Daini Seisan/Kanshuu.
What it has done for me is introduce me to a different CONCEPT of turning. When I cross the front foot over I keep it in cat stance, and as I turn 180 degrees I transfer the weight onto the heel of that now-rear foot while raising the heel of the now-front foot into the cat stance. I find this much faster than a Sanchin turn because the two stages of the Sanchin turn are about 50/50 in terms of time, whereas the Seichin turn is a quick and light cross step followed by a sudden 180-turn and shift of balance simultaneously. It also lightens the front foot prepatory to a leading leg kick, which the Sanchin turn does not.
To me, the Sanchin turn is more stable to receive a threat, the Seichin turn is more about turning to deliver a response?
What amazes me is that the upper body blocking/trapping/breaking sequence combined with the balance required, is to me far harder than the footwork/balance for the basic turn,and yet no one has commented on this. It is in fact the whole point of the sequence, is it not?
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Seichin, I find, has a distinctly different flavor than Sanchin, Kanshiwa and Daini Seisan/Kanshuu.
What it has done for me is introduce me to a different CONCEPT of turning. When I cross the front foot over I keep it in cat stance, and as I turn 180 degrees I transfer the weight onto the heel of that now-rear foot while raising the heel of the now-front foot into the cat stance. I find this much faster than a Sanchin turn because the two stages of the Sanchin turn are about 50/50 in terms of time, whereas the Seichin turn is a quick and light cross step followed by a sudden 180-turn and shift of balance simultaneously. It also lightens the front foot prepatory to a leading leg kick, which the Sanchin turn does not.
To me, the Sanchin turn is more stable to receive a threat, the Seichin turn is more about turning to deliver a response?
What amazes me is that the upper body blocking/trapping/breaking sequence combined with the balance required, is to me far harder than the footwork/balance for the basic turn,and yet no one has commented on this. It is in fact the whole point of the sequence, is it not?
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
cat stance turns
2Green,
The following/scopping movements of Seichin are a delightful departure from the more often seen uechi movements.
I must admit that I think the move developed to demonstrate this series in shohei's sanseiryu bunkai is a bit...linear. The sanseiryu bunkai move goes like this:
Defender is in a left cat stance. Uke throws a font kick. Defender stands his ground. He crane blocks and sweeps the foot off the line of attack using the last part of the outward/downward scooping koken.
then
Uke resets and throws a side thrust kick. Defender stands his ground and executes an upward koken scooping block -- and then throws forward as if doing one of the the shoken skuiauke's from elsewhere in the form.
I had hoped, when I first learned that there would be a sanseiryu bunkai, that it would present some of the more circular aspects of Uechi with the defender moving around uke more -- however the current bunkai continues to explore the linear toe to toe defenses.
To get back to your question -- The timing and balance for this movement depend how what part of it you are using and how nice you are trying to be. If uke's coming at you hard enough you can use the move to evade the line of attack and simply give uke a good hard thrust in the back of the head (using the rising part of the outward scooping block done with the front foot hand) to help him on his way. This would be a particulary damaging move if you happend to be in front of a wall at the time.
THe uechi-favorite is, I think, the application shown in #4 of Dan Kumite (which I don't really train so please correct me if I'm wrong). Where you use the move as a defense against a flying front or side kick.
In this application you turn the jumper on his own axis to bash his head into the ground. [bf]NOTE:[/bf] The application is only indicated by touching the jumper in the correct locations.
Obviously we don't want to do about bashing our dojo mate's heads into the ground on a regular basis.
As always there are infinite bunkai -- but I think one answer could be that you shift your weight at the moment you add energy in the direction uke is already travelling -- and not an moment before. Before that the hands must be listening to uke's movements to sense the proper moment when your direction and his direction are going to line up. I'm sure others may have a different take on this.
Sorry for the long post.
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited November 11, 2001).]
The following/scopping movements of Seichin are a delightful departure from the more often seen uechi movements.
I must admit that I think the move developed to demonstrate this series in shohei's sanseiryu bunkai is a bit...linear. The sanseiryu bunkai move goes like this:
Defender is in a left cat stance. Uke throws a font kick. Defender stands his ground. He crane blocks and sweeps the foot off the line of attack using the last part of the outward/downward scooping koken.
then
Uke resets and throws a side thrust kick. Defender stands his ground and executes an upward koken scooping block -- and then throws forward as if doing one of the the shoken skuiauke's from elsewhere in the form.
I had hoped, when I first learned that there would be a sanseiryu bunkai, that it would present some of the more circular aspects of Uechi with the defender moving around uke more -- however the current bunkai continues to explore the linear toe to toe defenses.
To get back to your question -- The timing and balance for this movement depend how what part of it you are using and how nice you are trying to be. If uke's coming at you hard enough you can use the move to evade the line of attack and simply give uke a good hard thrust in the back of the head (using the rising part of the outward scooping block done with the front foot hand) to help him on his way. This would be a particulary damaging move if you happend to be in front of a wall at the time.
THe uechi-favorite is, I think, the application shown in #4 of Dan Kumite (which I don't really train so please correct me if I'm wrong). Where you use the move as a defense against a flying front or side kick.
In this application you turn the jumper on his own axis to bash his head into the ground. [bf]NOTE:[/bf] The application is only indicated by touching the jumper in the correct locations.
Obviously we don't want to do about bashing our dojo mate's heads into the ground on a regular basis.
As always there are infinite bunkai -- but I think one answer could be that you shift your weight at the moment you add energy in the direction uke is already travelling -- and not an moment before. Before that the hands must be listening to uke's movements to sense the proper moment when your direction and his direction are going to line up. I'm sure others may have a different take on this.
Sorry for the long post.
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited November 11, 2001).]
cat stance turns
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2Green:
What amazes me is that the upper body blocking/trapping/breaking sequence combined with the balance required, is to me far harder than the footwork/balance for the basic turn,and yet no one has commented on this. [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually the merging of upper body movements with lower body is ideal (rooting) and a thread in itself. Any hows, when I first learned this kata I was taught that the "Hawk chasing Sparrow" movements were to trap an arm or leg for a break. I can see a possibility for the arm being broke but the leg I really question. However, using this sequence of movements to guide the head "through the loop" as you lift/guide the arm produces a vicious horizontal takedown or places the person in a very awkward and helpless position if stopped before twisting the person completly around. Always fun to explore kata "applications". It`s a great Kata.
[This message has been edited by candan (edited November 11, 2001).]
What amazes me is that the upper body blocking/trapping/breaking sequence combined with the balance required, is to me far harder than the footwork/balance for the basic turn,and yet no one has commented on this. [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually the merging of upper body movements with lower body is ideal (rooting) and a thread in itself. Any hows, when I first learned this kata I was taught that the "Hawk chasing Sparrow" movements were to trap an arm or leg for a break. I can see a possibility for the arm being broke but the leg I really question. However, using this sequence of movements to guide the head "through the loop" as you lift/guide the arm produces a vicious horizontal takedown or places the person in a very awkward and helpless position if stopped before twisting the person completly around. Always fun to explore kata "applications". It`s a great Kata.
[This message has been edited by candan (edited November 11, 2001).]
