Fresh Look at Sanchin

Post by **gmattson** » Thu Nov 15, 2001 7:48 pm

I was impressed with a recent thread on Cyberdojo. I asked the author, Richard McEvoy, if I might reprint segments and he agreed. I'll begin the sections with a letter exchange between us:

Subject: Great Sanchin analysis

Hi Richard:

Interesting take on Sanchin. Wondering if you would mind my posting your
comments on Sanchin to my Uechi-ryu forum?

Best,

George Mattson
===========================

Hi George

Thank you for the compliment. I have no problems with you posting my comments on Sanchin to your forum. I would appreciate a summary of the feedback.

Basically I see Sanchin or Saam Chien as being the external boxing equivalent of Tai Chi Qi Gong (from Tai Chi Chuan), of Santi (Hsing I) and of Single Palm Change (Pa Kua) i.e. an exercise in the fundamental
principles of the style. Indeed, apart for the (minor) distinction in breathing methods (mainly in the visualisation of them not in what happens physically), the neurasthenic conditioning offered by these exercises and
the effects in terms of chi development are the same.

Respects

Richard
========================
Thanks Richard.

I'll post your comments on Bill Glasheen's "Dojo Roundtable". You can check out the comments by going to http://uechi-ryu.com and clicking on the Forums link.

I've been doing the Uechi Sanchin since 1956 and have experimented with many different ways of doing it. I still look at Sanchin as a kata, not an exercise for breathing or anything special that is unrelated to the whole of the system. It is simply a great tool, which helps me understand other tools in the system. Breathing, as I understand it, must be natural and not strained. I've learned a great deal about myself and Sanchin through the study of other Chinese arts, which I've incorporated into my Sanchin.

"Its the journey, not the destination"

Best,
George
====================

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I've been doing the Uechi Sanchin since 1956 and have experimented with many different ways of doing it. I still look at Sanchin as a kata, not an exercise for breathing or anything special that is unrelated to the whole of the system. It is simply a great tool, which helps me understand other tools in the system.

Hi George

I totally agree with this analysis. Of course, saying something is just a kata is a bit of an understatement :-)

Personally, I only practice Sanchin and Seienchin from the Goju system plus the basics and conditioning(see my article www.fightingarts.com 'Too much, too little, too late' for an explanation of this).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Breathing, as I understand it, must be natural and not strained.

Taoists would agree with you but what is 'natural' breathing. In their view, it is somewhat different from what we would think. I incorporate taoist breathing into my Sanchin (technically, it should be buddhist breathing but having tried both I wasn't able to discern much actual difference so I opted for the former).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I've learned a great deal about myself and Sanchin through the study of other Chinese arts, which I've incorporated into my Sanchin.

I am with you on the incorporating other arts. In addition to Karate, I do Tai Chi Chuan and Okinawa Ti (Bugeikan).

Richard

Post by **gmattson** » Thu Nov 15, 2001 7:51 pm

I may have the segments out of order. . . but I think the statements will stand on their own. GEM

My own take on Sanchin is this.

1. The stop/start version where each move is done separately is not wrong but it is a beginner's version. Sanchin came from Chinese boxing and the stop/start version breaks some fundamental rules of Chinese boxing such as that elbows and knees should correspond. If however the block and punch is done as one flowing movement and the returning hand is accompanied by the step forward, the kata makes much more sense. This counters my lack of economy point.

2. I accept that the breathing should be natural and not forced. Moreover, on the in breath the body should be expanded like a balloon and the out breath it should pull in on itself. This produces the pump between relaxation and tension that is so important in the conditioning in this kata. (in fighting kata, the reverse of this pump should be used).

3. Furthermore, the student should be aware of the 'gates' in the hips, the thoracic hinge and the shoulder and should be opening and closing these in time with the breathing. (some background in kung fu may be necessary to understand this point)

4. Of equal importance torque must be generated in both counter- and clockwise directions in time with the breathing opening out and closing down the leg and shoulder joints (this should also happen internally in the body in the regin of the thoracic hinge).

5. Force must be applied systematically throughout the body beginning with the legs and moving up into the torso and the arms. Muscles and joints have to be brought online in the correct order via the breathing. (chichuchin)

6. As regards rooting, the tension in the feet changes direction from inner to outer and vice verse so what appears to be an immobile root actually has subtle weight changes. Also I agree that rooting is for power whereas its opposite, springing is for mobility. Sanchin gives the root and develops the power to spring.

7. EVen the overall slowness contributes by demanding absolute mental and physical correctness (hence the points to do with enlightenment and speed are answered as both mental concentration is developed and physical agility enhanced by programming in correct body dynamics).

8. As for bunkai and fewness of techniques, I was of course rehashing a canard regarding Sanchin which once understands that the kata is geared towards neurasthenic conditioning (and hence underpins all technique) and also when one realises that those few techniques can be endlessly subdivided and recombined makes this kata and this kata alone in combination with the basics essential. The rest are just in there for fun ;-)

9. After long and painful experimentation, I don't believe the turned in stance effectively protects the groin. It's purpose is to develop the legs and hips and a more natural stance should be adopted for fighting. Mobility protects the groin better than any block.

10. Good point about ground work through.

11. Interesting that doing moderate weights puts more pressure on the heart than Sanchin. I must remember that.

cheers

Richard

Post by **gmattson** » Thu Nov 15, 2001 7:55 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

My sensei . . ., 5th dan is always telling me i dont use my hips enough,can anyone please tell me some useful training methods to help me in this?

Hi

Don't use your hips, use your waist would be a start. The word 'koshi' is mistranslated as hips, actually it indicates the lower back and tantien region. Flicking the hips disperses rather than gathers energy. Weight transfer and centre turn in the waist are more efficient and effective means of generating power. The hips should be kept square as this is more structurally sound.

Richard

Note: I find this a very interesting and accurate description of power moves in Uechi-ryu. We often talk about "hip movements" when actually we are describing action that comes from the waist. (although my hips do move somewhat with this waist action.)gem

kusanku · Post by **kusanku** » Thu Nov 15, 2001 11:18 pm

And so it is said, 'All is in sanchin.'

Regards,
John Versteeg

Evan Pantazi · Post by **Evan Pantazi** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:41 am

Chi Flow is the corner stone of Sanchin in my mind. This was a great group of comments on the internal aspects of this amazing Kata. Here are some posts from the Kyusho forum that also follow this pattern:

Topic: Chi Flow
posted February 03, 1999 06:54 AM

Topic: Chi Gong
posted May 27, 1999 03:24 PM

Topic: Sanchin Chi Gung
posted December 28, 1999 01:31 PM

Topic: Sanchin
posted December 22, 2000 07:17 AM

------------------
Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com

candan · Post by **candan** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 9:39 am

Uplifting post on Sanchin, and much needed. I diffently will revist the post often. I see Sanchin as a "living thing". Let me explain ...my wife (who knows zip about Martial Arts) once commented that when she sees us do Sanchin we look dead or at best zombies called up to perform a set of movements "once more for the road." Point was well taken and by adding constant motion (isn`t that part of the Dragon aspect?) I sensed more power, felt better and enjoyed the kata more. Performing Sanchin in natural enviroments esp. secluded beaches, meadows ect.. seems to enhance.
PS I do my best kata alone..who can judge?

Thanks again GEM and Richard for your insights

[This message has been edited by candan (edited November 17, 2001).]

paul giella · Post by **paul giella** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 12:42 pm

time for a little commercial message. At the Hut classes on Saturdays we do a long version of Sanchin a couple times per month. Takes about twenty minutes and is directly geared toward breaking students out of the zombie-like routine. The form is done in three phases; first, the classic way. Second, with the step and chambering (including chambering the hip TC style)coordinated together. Third, with the step and strike done together, much like sparring, and the body much more fluid and natural, with more freedom to bob and weave, hit and cover. You have to see it to appreciate this... it really provides the much sought-after bridge between Sanchin and sparring. Try to make it down to the Hut some Saturday.

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 3:14 pm

Let me know which Saturday, Paul, and I'll adjust my schedule accordingly.

It's my understanding that Sanchin, performed in your prescibed manner, carries with it the stigma of a love/hate relationship. What's the scoop on that, Paul?

------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

paul giella · Post by **paul giella** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 1:51 am

Allen,
I hadn't heard about the hate part. but I can guess it might have to do with the fact that it is long (twenty minutes or more) and a departure from the strict orthodoxy of the past decades. When I first started to present it to the class I called it an "eyes-breathing-posture exercise" and then a "sanchin-like variation" in order to avoid the taboo connotation of messing with the sacred foundational exercise. But the truth is that it is sanchin, and so should be recognized as such. I am not trying to supplant the classic sanchin in any formal way, just share a variant that has proven very useful to my personal training.

Post by **gmattson** » Tue Nov 20, 2001 1:20 pm

More from Richard:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Subject: Sanchin Principles

1. Align the body so that the spine is straight, the chin tucked.

2. Relax - feel as if your head is suspended by a string and that your whole body dangles from it like a Chinese lantern.

3. Open and close the 'gates' in the hips, thoracic hinge and shoulders in line with the breathing (in breath, expand and open, outbreath, contract and close) - Note, reverse this breathing in martial as opposed to conditioning forms. - the gates are 'felt' to open and close in the centre of the joints.

4. Allow (and observe) the spiral rotations of the arms, legs and latissmi dorsi in line with the movement of the body. Thus, chudan (spiral in) and punch (spiral out), double osae uke/uchi (double spiral out) and mawashi uke/toraguchi (double spiral in) - actually it's more complex than that due to alterations during the yin phase of action but this should get you started.

5. Pay attention both internally and externally. Internally by monitoring the body/breath alignments and harmonisation and externally by visualising the opponent.

6. Breathing should not be forced initially. Breath to the centre and allow the breath to direct the thought to push the chi to work the muscles. Later, once you know what you are doing you can force thought or muscle or breath or a combination as desired.

7. Always warm up thoroughly before beginning (if possible get a quick massage). Allow your body some time to recover afterwards (if you intend to do other exercise, move about to keep warm) About 5 minutes.

8. Perform this exercise every day for a minimum of 1 third of the time you propose to train (e.g. training time of 1 hour equals Sanchin practice of 20 minutes). Training Sanchin for 1 hour is a luxury in today's time bound culture but one occasionally worth indulging oneself in.

Ultimately the principles of Sanchin are the principles of martial arts. Any martial arts principle can be incorporated and practiced as part of Sanchin with no or minor variations in kata performance. The basics I have given are superb training for efficiency and effectiveness in developing neurasthenic conditioning. They do not even indicate the martial purposes of Sanchin. But then I haven't time to write that book yet.

Sanchin is a simple exercise and therefore makes it easy to incorporate everything into it. Masters talk of practicing one thing. Perfection in one exercise is the door to perfection in all. Better to pick a simple exercise to be perfect in than a complex one.

Richard

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

candan · Post by **candan** » Thu Nov 22, 2001 10:57 am

Each morning I log on in hopes of more post from Richard McEnvoy. His understanding of Sanchin and his ability to put to words is top notch (can only hope to achieve it). I only disagree with visualising an opponent during Sanchin kata, would it not disrupt the ability to perfect the simple aspects by making it more complex because of varied attacks?

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 4:02 am

On the side of the devil’s advocate, a couple of questions:

Some students feel very despondent about Sanchin, in that the stances [pigeon toed] are very restrictive and unnatural and do not allow the body/feet to move as nature intended.

Also, the complaint is, that the stances and stepping movements bear no resemblance whatsoever to the way the body moves in a real fight, so why not study the way the body moves and reacts under the stress of a real fight and tailor a system to enhance performance along those natural reactive movements.

How many thousands of students have we lost over the years because we have stuck them in a wobbly Sanchin stance that felt like a joke to an athlete used to move about in complete freedom in sports or grappling disciplines?

And why hasn’t the “superiority” of Sanchin based systems really been that apparent in open tournaments and real fights as compared to less [stance] restrictive systems?

How do you explain to such students what sanchin stances will do for them in open tournaments, scenario training, and real street fights?

Also how do we explain to students the value of structured breathing patterns in Sanchin when under stress the body does not breathe that way at all, in fact, when some breathing patterns, as explained in the essay of Scott Sonnon, appear to be dysfunctional as it might be in the Uechi pattern?

------------------
Van Canna

Evan Pantazi · Post by **Evan Pantazi** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 1:20 pm

Canna Sensei,

I see Sanchin Stance as the training device. First it will allow more freedom of movement via pivoting into the strike (polarity issues here not in the scope of discussion) give more reach and power for the strike from either side without setup steps. It also trains the feet not to splay outward as 90% of people normally stand, creating slow, uncoordinated and potential targets. It also strengthens the outer muscle as the steps train forward motion, not side or retreating steps, always bearing in. It also allows the leg to use those pivots as inner thigh, knee and groin protection.

The feet will naturally fall straight ahead (proper alignment) comfortably, as one trains the stance. Not trying to move around pigeon toed. It will train a compact fighting ability much like Joe Frazier.

------------------
Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com

paul giella · Post by **paul giella** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 1:28 pm

Van,
"Impara l'arte e mette la da parte", as we have discussed, an old italian proverb from the Renaissance that means "learn the art then put it aside". The
sanchin stance teaches principles of balance and weight shifting, covering the vulnerable groin area and musclular focus that carries over very well into sparring or real self-defense. It need not be transposed exactly in its classic form to the 'free-form' of fighting to be effective... the principles learned remain in "deep background". But only if they were truly learned, at the level of muscle-memory, in the first place. And that comes from the repetition ad nauseam of the foundational exercise. IMHO Bruce Lee made the mistake of rejecting the formal exercises because he thought they stifled freedom of movement. But he himself spent years in the formal structure before he put it aside. His students did not do the same. Joe Lewis, the famous tounament champion from the 1960's, told Art Rabesa that "kata is for beginners". He apparently felt that students reach a point at which they have gained the lessons thjat kata teach and then have to 'put them aside' if they are to progress. Our old friend, or nemesis, Joe the Bum, was the extreme example of this philosophy... he stopped practicing his Shorin-ryu kata after he got his black belt and simply fought. This was his idea of practice. Every day. Police, sherrifs, honest citizens and other crimminals like himself... Joe just fought. And he was one tough bastard, too. In Uechi-ryu we do not take that extreme view. We never 'put it aside' completely. We continue to practice Sanchin even if we've been studying twenty ot thirty or forty years. But we don't expect the classic form of the movements to transpose exactly in the chemical storm of a real fight... just the underlying principles. Musicians who practice "Chopsticks" and other training exercises for fine motor control don't go out and play "Chopsticks" when they perform on stage, but the fine motor control they gained from it carries over.(This is one reason why some topnotch classical musicians find that teaching beginners helps them maintain their own fine edge. It keeps them practicing the basics.)

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sun Nov 25, 2001 3:10 pm

Evan,Paul,

Great comments, that's what I was looking for.

We need better ways to articulate the conceptual benefits of Sanchin practice as well as those of of the entire system.

Problem is a beginner is "pretzled" into Sanchin contortions and never really educated in what flows from it ,conceptually.

Think of how many students we could have kept if we more clearly communicated and were able to demonstrate convincingly such value on the tournament floor and scenario training.

Some of us do, but we are in the minority.

Also, another question: If Sanchin must be done totally relaxed, then how to develop the internal "Sanchin armor" that allows us to take such strong blows?

How do we explain this concept to a student?

Have any of you seen Sanchin done by Gushi sensei? What are your thoughts on it!

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Van Canna

[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited November 25, 2001).]