Talk about Tae Kwon Do

TSDguy · Post by **TSDguy** » Sat Dec 01, 2001 9:10 pm

I'll assume this thread isn't turning into a Korean bashing thread, and to make sure that doesn't happen I will edit a previous statement.

"It's not just the ATA, but all dojos/dojangs/chines word for gym."

For example, I'm currently looking for a school and have checked out some Uechi schools, quite a few Kenpo schools, and TKD schools. Nearly every of them has been out for the money.

One Uechi school refused to let me watch classes before I (didn't) sign up, charges 90 bucks a month for 3 evening classes a week, and was run by a control freak, which is a darn shame becasue I like what I've read about Uechi here.

I know this board is especially acceptive of ALL styles, and there are many korean stylists here, but the non-stop badmouthing of Korean styles on every board on the Internet really burns my ass. So, uneeded I'm sure, that's what I have to say.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Dec 01, 2001 9:23 pm

TSDguy point well taken , unfortunately financial gain hidden as martial arts dojos is to em one ofthe biggest problems in martial arts today .

Its just so hard for a beginner to see whats for real and what is`nt , even an average blackbelt with the talk can look like a guru to a novice , and who nows what there agenda really is .

roadrunner · Post by **roadrunner** » Mon Dec 03, 2001 7:20 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Allen M.:
Good karate is good karate anywhere.

Which set of Taekwondo poomse are you doing, roadrunner? Which one are you doing now? Which one do you like best? Which part of class do you like best? The least?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am doing currently kicho series and tae gue series in our class

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Mon Dec 03, 2001 9:22 pm

Yup! That's me, a wheelbarrow full of irrelevant and sometimes irreverent knowledge and bad puns!

Thanks for noticing, old friend!

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by student:
Oh, that's funny! Running the Spell Check I find that I had misspelled "spelling"...and that the checker thinks that instead of LeeDarrow I should try "wheelbarrow"....

[This message has been edited by student (edited November 30, 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Mon Dec 03, 2001 9:29 pm

Allen-sama,

You're slipping!

Kryptonite comes in several flavors these days -

Green - the classic ouchie
Red - unpredictable things happen, like amnesia or loss of powers for a time
White - kills plantlife
Gold - PERMANENT loss of powers - no get backs
Blue - I forget
Rainbow - not familiar with that one.

So the effect of that kick would be dependent on the type of kryptonite ON the tap shoes, y'see...

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht. (old time comics fan, raised by a cartoonist - which explains the sense of humor)

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Dec 03, 2001 11:52 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

One Uechi school refused to let me watch classes before I (didn't) sign up, charges 90 bucks a month for 3 evening classes a week, and was run by a control freak

A rose, by any other name, is still a rose. Same goes for individuals metaphorically resembling body parts often kept in the dark.

- Bill

student · Post by **student** » Tue Dec 04, 2001 6:01 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by LeeDarrow:

Kryptonite comes in several flavors these days -

Green - the classic ouchie

So the effect of that kick would be dependent on the type of kryptonite ON the tap shoes, y'see...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THEREFORE...a sweeping green Kryptonite-enhanced kick to the back of Kal-El's leg while applying forward pressure with your hands is an O-Uchie Geri?

And if your hand if performing a nukite strike simultaneously, is the technique then O-Uechi Geri...?

student

P.S. Blue Kryptonite is lethal only to Bizarros.

[This message has been edited by student (edited December 04, 2001).]

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Wed Dec 05, 2001 5:22 am

That's my buddy student - Master of Pun-Fu!

And keep that blue kryptonite away from me, please!

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
(certified Bizarro)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by student:
THEREFORE...a sweeping green Kryptonite-enhanced kick to the back of Kal-El's leg while applying forward pressure with your hands is an O-Uchie Geri?

And if your hand if performing a nukite strike simultaneously, is the technique then O-Uechi Geri...?

student

P.S. Blue Kryptonite is lethal only to Bizarros.

[This message has been edited by student (edited December 04, 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Dec 06, 2001 5:49 am

It is a rotten shame that superb martial arts have degenerated into “money grabbing” schemes the world over.

The Italian martial arts news group is full of such stomach turning stories. So the problem is universal.

I also understand the necessity to balance Budo with business in order to keep your doors open. But some dojo make me sick to my stomach the way they dilute the essence of the arts in favor of kissing ass and baby sitting for the sake of being able to pay the rent. This applies to all styles and organizations, bar none, because it is the individual “operator”
Not the style that stoops to vermin level in trying to separate you from your money.

It is in what you are looking for. As an example, both Rabesa sensei and I, among others, refused to water down our classes just to retain students. We were not interested in “making a living” out of the Dojo as we held full time jobs.

Also I caution all of us in any critique of TKD as an effective system.

If you take a look at the video clips of Alan Lowell’s son, you will see some very powerful kicking techniques.

Unless you have been up against the power and delivery speed of such kicks in tournaments, as some of us did against the wonderful fighters of Henry Cho, Jhoon Rhee, and other notable masters in the 60’s and 70’s, thereby learning some painful lessons, you have no idea how effective they can be and how difficult to block, as they get in between your reaction time.

If you want to really make an informed comment about TKD __I recommend entering an open tournament and asking to be matched with TKD fighters, or enter a TKD tournament.

And don’t make the mistake of thinking that TKD fighters cannot punch or use their hands well. Most techniques in tournaments are punches, back fist shots, shutos, and ridge hand strikes. Basic techniques that most TKD fighters can throw very well.

Also their focus on breaking boards helps in making their shots penetrate the target.

So if you want to argue TKD more effectively, do yourself a favor and enter a tournament or invite a local TKD school to your dojo asking for a friendly exchange with their best students.[ I said...best students

Don’t say I did not warn you.

------------------
Van Canna

TSDguy · Post by **TSDguy** » Thu Dec 06, 2001 8:40 pm

"As big a shame, IMHO, as the schools that are in the biz simply for the tournament wins to the point of ignoring the internal and philosophical portions of the arts or who are simply out to create the baddest-a$$ed dudes in the 'hood."

What's so bad about this? That's what some people want, so that's just fine. No one complains about boxing not having enough philosophy, so let the tournament schools do what they want. Nothing wrong with turning out bada$$es either, and for the same reason.

If you want a schools with meditation and zen, there are some available. If you want to fight in tournaments they should be available too, and that does NOT make the high and mighty traditionalist any better, as much as so many of them would like to believe!

The main reason traditionalists look down on young tournament fighters is because the traditionalists are too old and fat to compete anymore!

, so they hide behind forms and meditation and believe they have the reflexes and agility to fight a street fight, when in reality they can't even handle a simple tournament.

student · Post by **student** » Thu Dec 06, 2001 11:38 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by TSDguy:
"As big a shame, IMHO, as the schools that are in the biz simply for the tournament wins to the point of ignoring the internal and philosophical portions of the arts or who are simply out to create the baddest-a$$ed dudes in the 'hood."

What's so bad about this? That's what some people want, so that's just fine. No one complains about boxing not having enough philosophy, so let the tournament schools do what they want. Nothing wrong with turning out bada$$es either, and for the same reason. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, TSDGuy, as one Korean stylist to another, I'm going to have to disagree here.

There is something, well, if not wrong, than something less than totally right about it. Because there's the possibility of it being so much more. And what's wrong with that?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
If you want a schools with meditation and zen, there are some available. If you want to fight in tournaments they should be available too, and that does NOT make the high and mighty traditionalist any better, as much as so many of them would like to believe! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a matter of balance. I'm paraphrasing the Gospel according Marc "Animal" MacYoung: there are by and large four major reasons for studying martial arts: 1) exercise, 2)sport competition, 3)self-improvement, 4)self-defense. Even using similar techniques. the mindset and teaching set for these four differ vastly among each other. Many teachers will claim to be teaching all four at once while doing at best two.

MacYoung seems to believe it impossible to teach all four at the same time. I agree it's highly unlikely...maybe, maybe impossible. But it's worth trying. There is a big labeling problem, IMO, when a teacher is teaching one or two but claims he's really teaching something else.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
The main reason traditionalists look down on young tournament fighters is because the traditionalists are too old and fat to compete anymore! , so they hide behind forms and meditation and believe they have the reflexes and agility to fight a street fight, when in reality they can't even handle a simple tournament.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Big time generalization there, my friend. Are you sure it motivates most traitionalists? I freely admit I ****** at tournament, Korean style - I'm not flexible enough for head kicks. And I suspect I have a few years on you.

But then so does my friend Lee, with whose post you take issue. And he has fought tournaments - against fighters like Wally Slocki and Chuck Norris. Maybe you will grant him standing to have an opinion.

(If you don't recognize the names, ask an older fighter.

)

We don't look down on tournament fighters. We just believe there is a lot more, and it is a shame that some people never find it.

student

[This message has been edited by student (edited December 06, 2001).]

TSDguy · Post by **TSDguy** » Fri Dec 07, 2001 12:18 am

I'm not saying that it's wrong to want a lot (all four reasons) out of your martial art. I'm saying it's wrong to judge others becasue of what THEY want. You just can't look at a TKD fighter (or boxing/Judo/MT fighter) and say they're missing out simply because they may not even CARE about self defense or philosophy.

As for the second part of my post I was generalizing on purpose just to poke some fun at the traditionalist that get all huffy about someone wanting something different out of life. I don't care one bit about basing my personal system of ethics on some shaolin mantra, but I AM a martial artist, and I do have an ethical code. I (and many others) use martial arts for certain needs and meet the other needs elsewhere. Perhaps church.

Hope none of that came across as me attacking anyone.

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Fri Dec 07, 2001 5:49 am

Van Canna-Sensei,

Well Said!!

Some schools are simply in it for the mobney and that is a crying shame. As big a shame, IMHO, as the schools that are in the biz simply for the tournament wins to the point of ignoring the internal and philosophical portions of the arts or who are simply out to create the baddest-a$$ed dudes in the 'hood.

The style is not nearly as important as the person who teaches it or the person who practices it.

Having fought a number of the top TKD/TSD/MDK people in the 60's and early 70's, I can attest to the FACT that many of Jhoon Rhee's people and Master Choi's people were not only superb fighters (I lost more than a few times to them) but really good people as well.

I was brought up in the MA with the teachings that the Art does not only teach one to fight (and to KEEP from fighting!), but that it is also a path to personal improvement, philosophical enlightenment and spiritual peace.

Color me weird, but I still hold that belief system as part of my core.

Somewhere, there has to be a middle ground where someone can make a living teaching the martial arts without stooping to the sidewalk hustler level of "salesmanship."

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht. (Sandan, ret, sort of)

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Fri Dec 07, 2001 6:07 pm

TSDguy,

No problem, differing opinions lead to new knowledge in many cases.

My gripe is that a number of schools that I have visited do not teach even a basic concept of ethics in their training (and even pro boxers are supposed to get that - it's illegal in many states for a pro boxer to hit someone and they need to know that), do not teach anything of the history of the art or even its proper terminology.

To me, those issues are as central to the understanding of the art as the basics of a front kick and how to form a proper fist.

While tournament wins are all well and fine, and I have had my share of wins and losses in them and against some of the "big names" from days gone by, I still run into the occasional microcephalic twit who wants nothing more than to learn technique so he can go out on Saturday night and start a fight.

That's not martial art, regardless of what the application level might be - it's brawling, barbaric and, frankly, stupid.

Martial arts grant many of us the freedom to walk without fear. The converse is that we also have a responsibility to use what we have been taught only when absolutely necessary. Many people from these types of schools (which are a minority, I understand) do not recognize that responsibility.

It's those schools and those people that I have a problem with.

The freedom to learn what one wants is fine, but to deliberately overlook or ignore some of the core aspects of the MA - the philosophy, the meditation, the internal training - by the teacher is to ignore a large part of what makes the Asian martial arts what they are - a path not only to self defense, but a path to personal perfection.

There's an old saw about leading someone to knowledge but not being able to make them think. This is probably true, but without leading them to the knowledge in the first place is to deprive them of skills that they might want and need, yet have no idea as to their existence.

A teacher should do exactly that - teach. Not just the stuff a student is interested in, but the whole subject.

Imagine teaching TKD without Hyung. Some schools do that to a large extent. Is what they teach still TKD? IMHO the answer would have to be "no."

Sure the kicks and other moves are all the same, but Hyung is the core encyclopedia of technique and application, just as kata is for the Okinawan and Japanese arts. Without it, it is just a bunch of unrelated kicks and strikes.

Remove the history and there is less understanding of how things came to be and less ability to build on them.

Remove the philosophy and the student has no guidance for the proper place and time to use what has been taught.

I guess it's all a matter of whether one wants to teach the Art or just the fighting.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht. (Sandan, ret, sort of)

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Sat Dec 08, 2001 3:04 am

A little bit of disagreement with you, Lee.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Imagine teaching TKD without Hyung. Some schools do that to a large extent. Is what they teach still TKD? IMHO the answer would have to be "no."

I can wholeheartedly understand teaching TKD without Hyung because that is what is done most of the time. Some dude getting up there and starts going "Ha'a, Dool, Set..." to the tune of "Let's get this thing memorized for the next promotional" is not considered teaching Hyung! And that's all that most ever get. I see dead <strike>people</strike> kata. They don't know they are dead, but they are.

The beauty, grace, and power of Korean style kicks are like none other, and TKD, for all practical intents purpose is a kicking art.

And that's all most Americans can hope for.

------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera