I have always been under the assumption - perhaps errantly so - that jiu-jitsu is jiu-jitsu.
Yes...I have seen some schools that I'd study from and others that I wouldn't. Without going into naming names, I was at a recent Uechi camp where there were (at least) two different JJ schools teaching seminars. One seemed very much about doing. The instructors were knowledgeable, polite, and all business. The other seemed all about their pretty patches, colorful gis, hierarchy, and frankly not very impressive demos. But underneath it all, I still saw ... jiu-jitsu. But frankly the same can be said of different schools of any style. The material can be pretty much the same, but different instructors can execute the practice and teaching in different ways.
Much has been made of "Brazilian jiu-jitsu" since the UFC. The Gracies had their time in the sun while they were winning. Now we see mixed martial arts practitioners doing a lot of the competing in the various so-called NHB venues. Certainly the Gracies have taken a wonderful art and demonstrated a masterful execution through dedicated training and fierce competitiveness. But when you watch a Gracie fight, there really doesn't seem to be much unusual about what they do. Jiu-jitsu is a very old martial art, and its methods are proven. Even modern "gentlemen arts" like Aikido (and their various factions) pay tribute to the basics that JJ and iaido have contributed to their art. Ueshiba (O-Sensei) was both grappler and swordsman, and the roots are apparent when you study various arts.
Are my perceptions wrong? Are there factions of jiu-jitsu that clearly teach different techniques? Has another generation of fighters past the Gracies distinguished themselves as unique fighters? Are there other branches of this style worth noting?
Thanks for the input in advance.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited December 05, 2001).]
Tomato vs. Tomahto - How do JJ versions differ?
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Bill Glasheen
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Tomato vs. Tomahto - How do JJ versions differ?
Bill,
Thanks for leaving an opening for one of my favorite soap boxes!
There are vastly different flavors of jujutsu with different assumptions techniques and strategies. I think assumptions are vital to understanding a style or instructor. The art will always be tailored to what the instructor believes to be true about violence... these assumptions, whether based on experience, tradition or fantasy, are passed on to students.
The divisions I see are:
Battlefield jujutsu, which assumes that you find yourself unexpectedly disarmed in the midst of multiple armed opponents. Quite simply, it is based on killing an armored opponent as quickly as possible. I have seen a fair amount, and jujutsu of this era is definitely the most brutal and efficient martial art I've yet seen.
The dueling era- after the Tokugawa shogunate, battlefield styles declined and dueling became the mark of an expert. Designed to give out maximum damage while taking the minimum, they are far more defensive than the battlefield styles and also center around a controlled environment, ie one opponent facing you with good footing.
The police arts, which were designed to take people into custody without harming them.
The sport arts, which modified the dueling arts to minimize damage to both parties.
I recently (finally) got around to reading Draeger's "Modern Budo and Bujutsu" and found a similar analysis.
Rory
Thanks for leaving an opening for one of my favorite soap boxes!
There are vastly different flavors of jujutsu with different assumptions techniques and strategies. I think assumptions are vital to understanding a style or instructor. The art will always be tailored to what the instructor believes to be true about violence... these assumptions, whether based on experience, tradition or fantasy, are passed on to students.
The divisions I see are:
Battlefield jujutsu, which assumes that you find yourself unexpectedly disarmed in the midst of multiple armed opponents. Quite simply, it is based on killing an armored opponent as quickly as possible. I have seen a fair amount, and jujutsu of this era is definitely the most brutal and efficient martial art I've yet seen.
The dueling era- after the Tokugawa shogunate, battlefield styles declined and dueling became the mark of an expert. Designed to give out maximum damage while taking the minimum, they are far more defensive than the battlefield styles and also center around a controlled environment, ie one opponent facing you with good footing.
The police arts, which were designed to take people into custody without harming them.
The sport arts, which modified the dueling arts to minimize damage to both parties.
I recently (finally) got around to reading Draeger's "Modern Budo and Bujutsu" and found a similar analysis.
Rory
Tomato vs. Tomahto - How do JJ versions differ?
hi;
just to put my 2cents in ...i will make it short. the term ju of ju-jutsu is older then they can account for the meaning. today we assume it means "soft". but this is just a modern definition. ju-jutsu in old japanese was used just as a blanket term for martial arts in general. there were more koryu (old) systems in the 1600's then we have today. each being totaly different. during the tokugawa rule most died out or mutated. it got worse during the meiji era, were they changed to sport. most of what we have now is hodgepodge left overs.
HOSHIN
(STEVE)
~~~~~~~~
just to put my 2cents in ...i will make it short. the term ju of ju-jutsu is older then they can account for the meaning. today we assume it means "soft". but this is just a modern definition. ju-jutsu in old japanese was used just as a blanket term for martial arts in general. there were more koryu (old) systems in the 1600's then we have today. each being totaly different. during the tokugawa rule most died out or mutated. it got worse during the meiji era, were they changed to sport. most of what we have now is hodgepodge left overs.
HOSHIN
(STEVE)
~~~~~~~~
Tomato vs. Tomahto - How do JJ versions differ?
Well, let's see....
Kodokan Jujitsu is pretty well indistinguishable from Kodokan Judo until you start addint atemi waza (striking) and that's pretty limited.
Tenshin-Shinyo jujitsu seems more joint locking oriented to my limited exposure to it and more street oriented than Kodokan, less focus on Nage-waza (throwing) and more on Kansetsu-waza (locking) and Shime-waza (choking).
Kito-Ryu seems to work a balance between Nage-waza (throwing) and atemi and works from a modified swordsman's stance with the right hand forward and the left seeming to hold the saya (sheathe) on the belt as a defensive stance with the left foot leading. But, again, my exposure to this style is very limited.
IMHO, one of the reasons the Jujitsu people won in the earlier tournaments is the basic unfamiliarity that most fighters had with their style and tactics.
It is most difficult to deal with a style that you don't know as opposed to one that you know.
A Shotokan stylist can be relied upon to generally do certain things - control the range, clean kicks and punches from a linear attack profile. A TKD stylist can be relied on for devastating kicks and circular motion. A Wu-Shu stylist can be relied upon for circular strikes, fast hands (in the South) and long kicks (in the North).
But most were unfamiliar with just WHAT a Jujitsuka would do and hence, were forced into a RE-active role as opposed to being able to be the aggressor and control things like range and speed of the fight.
This, IMHO, contributed to the wins almost as much as the fighting spirit and extreme capability of the Gracies (and the other Jujitsuka out there) and their effective fighting Ryu.
Please understand, this is NOT a dis to Jujitsu. It is a very street effective art, requiring hard training and the ability to absorb damage as well as to be able to dish it out. But, when you are on the mat, or the street, the more you know about a style being used against you, the better chance you have of surviving.
When the Gracies first showed up - the reaction was "JUJITSU?! Are they KIDDING?!"
Needless to say, that attitude changed almost right after the first tournament.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Kodokan Jujitsu is pretty well indistinguishable from Kodokan Judo until you start addint atemi waza (striking) and that's pretty limited.
Tenshin-Shinyo jujitsu seems more joint locking oriented to my limited exposure to it and more street oriented than Kodokan, less focus on Nage-waza (throwing) and more on Kansetsu-waza (locking) and Shime-waza (choking).
Kito-Ryu seems to work a balance between Nage-waza (throwing) and atemi and works from a modified swordsman's stance with the right hand forward and the left seeming to hold the saya (sheathe) on the belt as a defensive stance with the left foot leading. But, again, my exposure to this style is very limited.
IMHO, one of the reasons the Jujitsu people won in the earlier tournaments is the basic unfamiliarity that most fighters had with their style and tactics.
It is most difficult to deal with a style that you don't know as opposed to one that you know.
A Shotokan stylist can be relied upon to generally do certain things - control the range, clean kicks and punches from a linear attack profile. A TKD stylist can be relied on for devastating kicks and circular motion. A Wu-Shu stylist can be relied upon for circular strikes, fast hands (in the South) and long kicks (in the North).
But most were unfamiliar with just WHAT a Jujitsuka would do and hence, were forced into a RE-active role as opposed to being able to be the aggressor and control things like range and speed of the fight.
This, IMHO, contributed to the wins almost as much as the fighting spirit and extreme capability of the Gracies (and the other Jujitsuka out there) and their effective fighting Ryu.
Please understand, this is NOT a dis to Jujitsu. It is a very street effective art, requiring hard training and the ability to absorb damage as well as to be able to dish it out. But, when you are on the mat, or the street, the more you know about a style being used against you, the better chance you have of surviving.
When the Gracies first showed up - the reaction was "JUJITSU?! Are they KIDDING?!"
Needless to say, that attitude changed almost right after the first tournament.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Tomato vs. Tomahto - How do JJ versions differ?
Hello everyone,
I've recently gotten into BJJ a bit, and a few things have occurred to me regarding the system.
The gracies, of course, took what they felt was most effective from traditional jiujitsu. However, the major difference between them and other grappling arts is the format. The gracies apparently decided to dump all of the jiujitsu kata and focus instead on pure application. This of course, has its setbacks, as the gracie system lacks a great deal of techniques that are present in the older systems (for instance, leglocks seem virtually absent from BJJ). However, by using the time that would otherwise be dedicated to kata to spar, they prepare themselves for the octagon more rapidly.
I have to give it to them... They know how to throw on that triangle
Just my take on it...
Mike Keller
I've recently gotten into BJJ a bit, and a few things have occurred to me regarding the system.
The gracies, of course, took what they felt was most effective from traditional jiujitsu. However, the major difference between them and other grappling arts is the format. The gracies apparently decided to dump all of the jiujitsu kata and focus instead on pure application. This of course, has its setbacks, as the gracie system lacks a great deal of techniques that are present in the older systems (for instance, leglocks seem virtually absent from BJJ). However, by using the time that would otherwise be dedicated to kata to spar, they prepare themselves for the octagon more rapidly.
I have to give it to them... They know how to throw on that triangle
Just my take on it...
Mike Keller
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Colin 8 of 8
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Tomato vs. Tomahto - How do JJ versions differ?
Jujitsu is Jujitsu as Karate is Karate.
Both range from Zen to Kempo.
Colin 8 of 8
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My name is Colin 8 of 8, I am very much alive, and intend to stay that way.
Both range from Zen to Kempo.
Colin 8 of 8
------------------
My name is Colin 8 of 8, I am very much alive, and intend to stay that way.
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Jake Steinmann
- Posts: 1184
- Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Newton, MA
- Contact:
Tomato vs. Tomahto - How do JJ versions differ?
"The gracies, of course, took what they felt was most effective from traditional jiujitsu. However, the major difference between them and other grappling arts is the format. "
The historian in me forces me to jump in here.
Gracie/Brazillian jujutsu (or however you choose to spell it) is an off shoot of Kodokan Judo, NOT jujutsu. The techniques, training methods, etc. are all derived from the Kodokan Judo syllabus. Most, if not all, of the submission holds found in BJJ are found in Judo (though the BJJ tend to put much more time and analysis into the groundwork, and therefore, are often better at it).
The major difference is that the Gracie folks, for one reason or another (people argue about this, I don't feel like going there), decided to focus more upon newaza (ground technique) as oppossed to tachiwaza (throwing technique). Hence, the strong groundwork.
(Note: I'm NOT, NOT, NOT bashing BJJ...the grappling classes that I attended are taught by a BJJ fellow half the time. It's a great art.)
------------------
Jake Steinmann
PDR Team
www.tonyblauer.com
The historian in me forces me to jump in here.
Gracie/Brazillian jujutsu (or however you choose to spell it) is an off shoot of Kodokan Judo, NOT jujutsu. The techniques, training methods, etc. are all derived from the Kodokan Judo syllabus. Most, if not all, of the submission holds found in BJJ are found in Judo (though the BJJ tend to put much more time and analysis into the groundwork, and therefore, are often better at it).
The major difference is that the Gracie folks, for one reason or another (people argue about this, I don't feel like going there), decided to focus more upon newaza (ground technique) as oppossed to tachiwaza (throwing technique). Hence, the strong groundwork.
(Note: I'm NOT, NOT, NOT bashing BJJ...the grappling classes that I attended are taught by a BJJ fellow half the time. It's a great art.)
------------------
Jake Steinmann
PDR Team
www.tonyblauer.com
