I use a few different plastic bottles to train hand/forearm strength. They offer a
variety of neck width.
The widest one (5.75") is not heavy enough when filled with 4 litres of water.(9lbs)
Sand or gravel can be used to increase weight.
However when I work with bottles with smaller necks (4.25") 4 liters of water become difficult to hold in about a minute.
The difference seems to be that the smaller neck size works the fingers more than the larger neck size. The grip on the wide neck seems to get a lot more help from the muscles in the hand and forearm.
To better understand this decreasing hand strength,try the following demo:
1. place the widest part of your forearm between your thumb and fingers as you would grip the kami and squeeze.
2. now do the same thing at the wrist.
3. now do it on your index finger.
As the the thumb and fingers get closer less power is applied.
To increase strength in this range I squeeze my pocket stick and hold the count. I also isolate individual fingers. This activity is great for long drives or standing in line ups or long walks.
Is this weakness in the grip as circumferences decrease normal?
Any suggestions how to increase strength in the small grip?
Laird
kami neck size
Moderator: Available
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Bill Glasheen
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- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
kami neck size
Laird
You are getting into issues that strength trainers obsess over at times.
First of all, it is well known that there is a variable relationship between muscle length and maximum possible force of contraction. The peak force for an individual muscle is somewhere around half way between fully lengthened and fully contracted. The reason for this has to do with the way actin and myosin filaments interact with each other to contract. The more points of "active" contact between the filaments, the more total force that can be generated.
Second of all, there is an additional passive force that is exerted by the muscle when you stretch it close to its limit of flexibility. The relationship there is similar to Hook's law, as the muscle begins to behave like a stretched spring. Hook's law states that the force exerted by a spring is linearly proportional to the length you stretch the spring.
So what I'm saing is that the reason for variable force exerted on a "rim" by a gripping hand is a little complex. When your hand is really stretched, you are getting a kind of passive, clipboard clip effect aiding the active work of the muscles. Then there is a short range where each of the various muscles are able to exert their maximal active force. And then add in the complex geometry of the situation. The multiple fingers are bending/curling at multiple joints, and there are multiple muscles involved in the grip.
There is a general belief that isometric (same position) exercises are weak on developing strength throughout the range of motion of a joint or set of joints. The traditional freeweight or isotonic (same force) exercises work the muscle mostly at the sticking points, and much less through the strong points (or when you heave the weight and use momentum). The variable cam machines (Nautilus) attempt to match load to muscle force to give taxing exercise throughout the range of motion. Unfortunately these machines isolate movements in unnatural ways, and don't allow the athlete to develop the coordination obtained with freeweight training. No free lunch!
But back to the gym... You are highlighting a weakness of kami training. If you only use one rim size, the results may not be ideal. But it's better than nothing at all. The truth is that real finger exercises are very difficult to do. There's no good machine out there that exercises them in the traditional isotonic fashion. Other methods (like sqeezing the hand in viscous sand or goo) are very messy. So we make do with what we have.
Working with different rim sizes is probably a good thing. That's why I believe this generation of practitioners may be able to take the kami training to the next level. One day...
- Bill
You are getting into issues that strength trainers obsess over at times.
First of all, it is well known that there is a variable relationship between muscle length and maximum possible force of contraction. The peak force for an individual muscle is somewhere around half way between fully lengthened and fully contracted. The reason for this has to do with the way actin and myosin filaments interact with each other to contract. The more points of "active" contact between the filaments, the more total force that can be generated.
Second of all, there is an additional passive force that is exerted by the muscle when you stretch it close to its limit of flexibility. The relationship there is similar to Hook's law, as the muscle begins to behave like a stretched spring. Hook's law states that the force exerted by a spring is linearly proportional to the length you stretch the spring.
So what I'm saing is that the reason for variable force exerted on a "rim" by a gripping hand is a little complex. When your hand is really stretched, you are getting a kind of passive, clipboard clip effect aiding the active work of the muscles. Then there is a short range where each of the various muscles are able to exert their maximal active force. And then add in the complex geometry of the situation. The multiple fingers are bending/curling at multiple joints, and there are multiple muscles involved in the grip.
There is a general belief that isometric (same position) exercises are weak on developing strength throughout the range of motion of a joint or set of joints. The traditional freeweight or isotonic (same force) exercises work the muscle mostly at the sticking points, and much less through the strong points (or when you heave the weight and use momentum). The variable cam machines (Nautilus) attempt to match load to muscle force to give taxing exercise throughout the range of motion. Unfortunately these machines isolate movements in unnatural ways, and don't allow the athlete to develop the coordination obtained with freeweight training. No free lunch!
But back to the gym... You are highlighting a weakness of kami training. If you only use one rim size, the results may not be ideal. But it's better than nothing at all. The truth is that real finger exercises are very difficult to do. There's no good machine out there that exercises them in the traditional isotonic fashion. Other methods (like sqeezing the hand in viscous sand or goo) are very messy. So we make do with what we have.
Working with different rim sizes is probably a good thing. That's why I believe this generation of practitioners may be able to take the kami training to the next level. One day...
- Bill
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Colin 8 of 8
- Posts: 71
- Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Portsmouth Hampshire UK
kami neck size
May I respectfully sugest a tenis ball.
Colin 8 of 8
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My name is Colin 8 of 8, I am very much alive, and intend to stay that way.
Colin 8 of 8
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My name is Colin 8 of 8, I am very much alive, and intend to stay that way.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
kami neck size
The tennis ball is a great suggestion.
* The advantage here is that it's cheap, light, and readily available. You can take it anywhere.
* Part of the problem would be understanding how to properly use it to develop the kind of strength and movement one wants for Uechi ryu open-handed methods. The beauty of the kami training is that it forces you (with simple instructions) to form a standard Uechi boshiken (thumb fist). In practice one transitions from a boshiken to a hiraken (flat fist) when doing the classic Uechi ryu grab that gets clothing AND flesh in that ever so nasty way
. A little bit of kami training will help a student understand the way to effectively graduate to a tennis ball for that type of movement.
* There's another kind of grip that starts with the nukite and graduates to a contorted shoken (seisan grab, lift, and turn). One could work on that type of grip as well.
* The big disadvantage of this type of training is that it's difficult to dial up the exact amount of work you want to do in a session. With the kami, free weights, or machines, you can adjust the weight to the pound or Kg. Then you do the exact amount of time and/or repetitions that you want. The concept of progressive resistance training is that you can easily control this amount, and increase it in ever so precise amounts. The weight makes you honest, and you won't inadvertently overdo it if you don't want to. It's easy to stay right on that edge which gives you optimal gains and minimal risk of injury. Trust me...too much work here can be a bad thing. Tendonitis and compartment syndromes (like carpal tunnel) in these areas is difficult to overcome. With the tennis ball, you have to do it totally by feel. The resistance that the ball gives you is totally determined by the effort you put into it. You may get lazy on bad days, and overdo it on others.
As I said before, there's no free lunch. The tennis balls are a great alternative, and they specifically address the issue of a grip with a smaller circumference.
Exercise gurus tell you to vary the way you exercise muscles to avoid repetitive motion injuries and maximize gains. I have a handful (sorry..bad pun) of other exercises and PNF stretches that I do for the grip and forearms. And kotekitae (forearm conditioning) is most definitely part of the whole package. If you want the maximum overall benefit, a multi-faceted, disciplined approach is the answer.
It's worth mentioning here that all the effort mentioned is on finger and thumb flexion. Extension strength is also very important, and is quite difficult to work on.
- Bill
* The advantage here is that it's cheap, light, and readily available. You can take it anywhere.
* Part of the problem would be understanding how to properly use it to develop the kind of strength and movement one wants for Uechi ryu open-handed methods. The beauty of the kami training is that it forces you (with simple instructions) to form a standard Uechi boshiken (thumb fist). In practice one transitions from a boshiken to a hiraken (flat fist) when doing the classic Uechi ryu grab that gets clothing AND flesh in that ever so nasty way
. A little bit of kami training will help a student understand the way to effectively graduate to a tennis ball for that type of movement.* There's another kind of grip that starts with the nukite and graduates to a contorted shoken (seisan grab, lift, and turn). One could work on that type of grip as well.
* The big disadvantage of this type of training is that it's difficult to dial up the exact amount of work you want to do in a session. With the kami, free weights, or machines, you can adjust the weight to the pound or Kg. Then you do the exact amount of time and/or repetitions that you want. The concept of progressive resistance training is that you can easily control this amount, and increase it in ever so precise amounts. The weight makes you honest, and you won't inadvertently overdo it if you don't want to. It's easy to stay right on that edge which gives you optimal gains and minimal risk of injury. Trust me...too much work here can be a bad thing. Tendonitis and compartment syndromes (like carpal tunnel) in these areas is difficult to overcome. With the tennis ball, you have to do it totally by feel. The resistance that the ball gives you is totally determined by the effort you put into it. You may get lazy on bad days, and overdo it on others.
As I said before, there's no free lunch. The tennis balls are a great alternative, and they specifically address the issue of a grip with a smaller circumference.
Exercise gurus tell you to vary the way you exercise muscles to avoid repetitive motion injuries and maximize gains. I have a handful (sorry..bad pun) of other exercises and PNF stretches that I do for the grip and forearms. And kotekitae (forearm conditioning) is most definitely part of the whole package. If you want the maximum overall benefit, a multi-faceted, disciplined approach is the answer.
It's worth mentioning here that all the effort mentioned is on finger and thumb flexion. Extension strength is also very important, and is quite difficult to work on.
- Bill
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Guest
kami neck size
It's worth mentioning here that all the effort mentioned is on finger and thumb flexion. Extension strength is also very important, and is quite difficult to work on.
- Bill
How perceptive of you to hint at my next question.
Laird.
- Bill
How perceptive of you to hint at my next question.
Laird.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
kami neck size
Me and my big mouth...
Actually this is a lot like the neglect that the lower leg gets. People work a lot on their calves via calf raises, running and jump rope. Then they wonder why they get shin splints, and wonder why the muscles get so tender around the fronts of the shin when blocked. Well basically it's because nobody works on the opposing motion of ankle flexion. There's a way to do that with track shoes on, and using a curl bar on a pulley machine with the pulley brought to the ground. I've talked about this before.
Sometimes people get the equivalent of shin splints in their forearms after hitting things, even though they do all these wrist curl and finger/wrist curl exercises. Well to start with, one should also be doing the reverse wrist curl to work on the upper forearm. That's the part of the arm that gets bashed on the third strike of kotekitae. But working on finger extension? Very tough indeed!
A traditional method would be repeatedly putting your closed hand (fist) in a vat of wet sand (smooth pebbles, BBs, etc), and then opening/splaying the fingers and thumb. This is nice...and potentially very messy. But you can get both the closing and opening of the grip exercised in the same vat. So there's efficiency in that setup.
Here's another method that's elegantly simple. Put your hand in a fist. Then wrap cloth around it relatively firmly with the other hand (you can even use your gi top). Then try to (isometrically) open/splay the fingers and thumb. A little more elegant version of this would be to have something elastic like a big, thick piece of latex or rubber (from an auto inner tube) to wrap the hand in. That way you can get a little more motion (even though this and the tennis ball squeeze give you relatively limited range of motion and a rapidly increasing force-movement curve).
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited December 12, 2001).]
Actually this is a lot like the neglect that the lower leg gets. People work a lot on their calves via calf raises, running and jump rope. Then they wonder why they get shin splints, and wonder why the muscles get so tender around the fronts of the shin when blocked. Well basically it's because nobody works on the opposing motion of ankle flexion. There's a way to do that with track shoes on, and using a curl bar on a pulley machine with the pulley brought to the ground. I've talked about this before.
Sometimes people get the equivalent of shin splints in their forearms after hitting things, even though they do all these wrist curl and finger/wrist curl exercises. Well to start with, one should also be doing the reverse wrist curl to work on the upper forearm. That's the part of the arm that gets bashed on the third strike of kotekitae. But working on finger extension? Very tough indeed!
A traditional method would be repeatedly putting your closed hand (fist) in a vat of wet sand (smooth pebbles, BBs, etc), and then opening/splaying the fingers and thumb. This is nice...and potentially very messy. But you can get both the closing and opening of the grip exercised in the same vat. So there's efficiency in that setup.
Here's another method that's elegantly simple. Put your hand in a fist. Then wrap cloth around it relatively firmly with the other hand (you can even use your gi top). Then try to (isometrically) open/splay the fingers and thumb. A little more elegant version of this would be to have something elastic like a big, thick piece of latex or rubber (from an auto inner tube) to wrap the hand in. That way you can get a little more motion (even though this and the tennis ball squeeze give you relatively limited range of motion and a rapidly increasing force-movement curve).
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited December 12, 2001).]
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Guest
kami neck size
Thank you Sensei Glasheen!
You once again have given me much to work on and much to ponder.
Laird
You once again have given me much to work on and much to ponder.
Laird
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Ted Dinwiddie
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Charlottesville,VA,USA
kami neck size
Laird
Check out a local climbing gym or shop. Some of the strongest fingers/hands I have ever witnessed were those of rock climbers. They have developed a myriad of torture techniques and devices for grip development. A few of my favorites are the "Gripmaster" (available in different tensions with individual keys for each finger, flexion only); the "Grip" (a rubber ball, sort of, filled with a viscous substance and a type of seed/grain with a version that also has fine lead shot also called "Gravity Grip" and weighs a pound still only flexion) and another which I cannot remember the brand name of is kind if like a mega Silly Putty and is available in several "tensions". This has the advantage of allowing the fingers to be pushed into the middle allowing a splaying motion with resistance (flexion and extension).
I have also found Sai practice good for the hands and forearms.
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ted
"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke
Check out a local climbing gym or shop. Some of the strongest fingers/hands I have ever witnessed were those of rock climbers. They have developed a myriad of torture techniques and devices for grip development. A few of my favorites are the "Gripmaster" (available in different tensions with individual keys for each finger, flexion only); the "Grip" (a rubber ball, sort of, filled with a viscous substance and a type of seed/grain with a version that also has fine lead shot also called "Gravity Grip" and weighs a pound still only flexion) and another which I cannot remember the brand name of is kind if like a mega Silly Putty and is available in several "tensions". This has the advantage of allowing the fingers to be pushed into the middle allowing a splaying motion with resistance (flexion and extension).
I have also found Sai practice good for the hands and forearms.
------------------
ted
"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
kami neck size
Ted
Amen! My old boss got me into some climbing, and they recently built a climbing gym south of the river here. There's nothing like the forearm pump you get from doing a little bit of wall work.
I haven't been all that impressed with the devices that you can take home - compared to what we have avaliable through martial arts. If Uechi ryu were about nothing but finger strength, then I'd say we can all go home, and Uechi ryu instructors should set up dojos within all climbing gyms (actually, still not a bad idea...). However what I find is that:
1) The devices don't work anywhere near as well as doing the real thing - climbing. NOTHING that I've played with gives me the agony that you get when you go on the wall.
2) Unfortunately climbing really doesn't work the thumb very much. Thumb strength is absolutely critical in Uechi ryu. The boshiken is a thumb strike. The shoken and hiraken rely on thumb strength (counter force in the squeezed hand) to support the attacking finger. Grabbing Uechi ryu style means grabbing with the fingers and a boshiken thumb, and not the way most people grab on the athletic field.
So... Yes, we can find similar "portable" devices to play with in the climbing crowd. But nothing there works quite like the kami. We can do wonders with the finger strength, but still need to go back to some of the "old" methods for the thumb.
By the way, I have played with those putty mixtures of various viscosities. One of my students here is an occupational therapist, and he brought some in for me to play with. It was...interesting. It isn't everything it's cracked up to be among the athletic set, although the stuff is extremely useful for patients that need rehab (where the baseline capabilities and final goals are much more modest). The big problem with this stuff is that it gets dirty (absorbs everything), and you have to throw it away often. And it definitely isn't something you want to pass around in the dojo.
You use your own toothbrush, and you use your own workout putty.
- Bill
Amen! My old boss got me into some climbing, and they recently built a climbing gym south of the river here. There's nothing like the forearm pump you get from doing a little bit of wall work.
I haven't been all that impressed with the devices that you can take home - compared to what we have avaliable through martial arts. If Uechi ryu were about nothing but finger strength, then I'd say we can all go home, and Uechi ryu instructors should set up dojos within all climbing gyms (actually, still not a bad idea...). However what I find is that:
1) The devices don't work anywhere near as well as doing the real thing - climbing. NOTHING that I've played with gives me the agony that you get when you go on the wall.
2) Unfortunately climbing really doesn't work the thumb very much. Thumb strength is absolutely critical in Uechi ryu. The boshiken is a thumb strike. The shoken and hiraken rely on thumb strength (counter force in the squeezed hand) to support the attacking finger. Grabbing Uechi ryu style means grabbing with the fingers and a boshiken thumb, and not the way most people grab on the athletic field.
So... Yes, we can find similar "portable" devices to play with in the climbing crowd. But nothing there works quite like the kami. We can do wonders with the finger strength, but still need to go back to some of the "old" methods for the thumb.
By the way, I have played with those putty mixtures of various viscosities. One of my students here is an occupational therapist, and he brought some in for me to play with. It was...interesting. It isn't everything it's cracked up to be among the athletic set, although the stuff is extremely useful for patients that need rehab (where the baseline capabilities and final goals are much more modest). The big problem with this stuff is that it gets dirty (absorbs everything), and you have to throw it away often. And it definitely isn't something you want to pass around in the dojo.
You use your own toothbrush, and you use your own workout putty.- Bill
-
Guest
kami neck size
Forgot what rock climbing does for hand strength. Living in the mountains I know lots of climbers. Some of them train by doing 1 finger chinups on doors.
Everytime I go to the gym I walk past the climbing wall. I quess I should check it out myself. Who knows,I might just enjoy it.
Ted, I have a gripmaster, I like it too. I'll keep my eyes open for some of the other gadgets.
Laird
[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited December 13, 2001).]
Everytime I go to the gym I walk past the climbing wall. I quess I should check it out myself. Who knows,I might just enjoy it.
Ted, I have a gripmaster, I like it too. I'll keep my eyes open for some of the other gadgets.
Laird
[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited December 13, 2001).]
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maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
kami neck size
Hi, To quote KANBUN sensei "finger /hand / strength is developed through the powerfull sanchin kata " I always devote more time to sanchin for over all muscular development , the jars etc or things I do at work test out that sanchin strength , I would recomend to all give more time to sanchin than one normally would .
Thats why the jars etc ,were introduce after a three year sanchin to test out the developed to that point in time , sanchin posture, to quote kanbun sensei "no other training is needed than sanchin "but the catch is if its done well and not half hearted ,devote all to sanchin for a while , give it your all ,then test out those jars.
max.
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max ainley
Thats why the jars etc ,were introduce after a three year sanchin to test out the developed to that point in time , sanchin posture, to quote kanbun sensei "no other training is needed than sanchin "but the catch is if its done well and not half hearted ,devote all to sanchin for a while , give it your all ,then test out those jars.
max.
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max ainley
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
kami neck size
First of all, thanks to everyone for their wonderful contributions. There are some very valueable ideas and sources being brought out here.
Max
Thanks for your post. Would you allow me the opportunity to play devil's advocate for a minute? Bear with me...
What would you say if Shaquille O'Neil came up to you and told you that all you needed to do to dunk a basketball was to play more basketball?
We have a Mr. Dong in the area who is a very commercial Taequondo instructor. When he was in Charlottesville 20 years ago, he was famous for these posters where he was pictured doing a side kick at 12 o'clock (his body looking like a perfect "T" on its side). Mr. Dong was subliminally suggesting something with that poster... What do you think?
I'll share my view in just a bit...
- Bill
Max
Thanks for your post. Would you allow me the opportunity to play devil's advocate for a minute? Bear with me...
What would you say if Shaquille O'Neil came up to you and told you that all you needed to do to dunk a basketball was to play more basketball?
We have a Mr. Dong in the area who is a very commercial Taequondo instructor. When he was in Charlottesville 20 years ago, he was famous for these posters where he was pictured doing a side kick at 12 o'clock (his body looking like a perfect "T" on its side). Mr. Dong was subliminally suggesting something with that poster... What do you think?
I'll share my view in just a bit...
- Bill
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maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
kami neck size
Hi Bill, thanks for comment to post and all other posts .
Your question ,I just dont have a clue who the basketball star is at all , not coming from the USA,but I bet he/she is a top gun,and I think may be I would need to view basketball first not seeing any for 30 years , then I would be better placed to to take in the statement.
The high side kick ,the start of the stretch is contained in sanchin, just like the basis for the seisan jump is in sanchin.
max.
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max ainley
Your question ,I just dont have a clue who the basketball star is at all , not coming from the USA,but I bet he/she is a top gun,and I think may be I would need to view basketball first not seeing any for 30 years , then I would be better placed to to take in the statement.
The high side kick ,the start of the stretch is contained in sanchin, just like the basis for the seisan jump is in sanchin.
max.
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max ainley
