Has anyone else notced that you Uechi-ryu guys practice xing

[XingYi Dragon]

The terms are even almost exactly the same. In xing yi, the trilogy stance is called san'ti, and we try to perfect the pangan. The agressive nature is also present in both. I don't suggest that someone gives up uechi-ryu, but after trying out a little uechi-ryu, i noticed there is a lot to gain in crosstraining the two.

[Deep Sea]

Dear Dragon,

Please list several of your favorite xing yi URLs so we can observe these similarities.

------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

[XingYi Dragon]

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/index.html
This website is a primmer on the subject, but, as a friend of mine says, "the rabbit hole goes deep." The first thing an Uechi-Ryu practitioner will probably wonder is why is it an "internal" form of martial arts? It shares characteristics with taiji and bagua, and a lot of the development of power relies on chi exercises and snap movements rather than muscle power... I'll let you read first.

[Ted Dinwiddie]

While I am not Uechi-ka and cannot speak to similarities or not, I do practice a style that emphasizes chi flow and vital points and such (Okinawan Kempo). A friend of mine, who is a nidan under my instructors, has been practicing Xing-i under Vince Black in Tuscon for several years. He counters our "chi talk" by saying it is the structure that is important. He downplays the chi part. This is notable to me because his initial lineage emphasizes the chi role somewhat.

------------------
ted

"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke

[This message has been edited by Ted Dinwiddie (edited December 14, 2001).]

[XingYi Dragon]

You're right in believing that chi strikes do use more than just your internal energy. Part of the "mechanical" aspect consists in the fact that there is elesticity in the body, as well as inherent chi. Through nei gong and wei gong, the two forms of chi gong, chi can be channeled, and chi can be brought in. There is the prebirth, the chi in your organs and other parts of your body that you can learn to control and have curculate your body, and there is the post birth chi, that is literally collected from the air, and the food you take in. You don't eat when you prepare to strike, but you can control your breathing in what is known as taoist breathing to draw in power, and release some of the chi from the air into a strike. I know, it sounds a bit like i'm pushing something mystical here, doesn't it? After you learn some of the basics of it, however, it all becomes clearer. A note of warning though. If you ever hear someone saying they can project chi outside their body, have them prove it before you believe it, because in all the time i've studied, nobody has been able to back up their claim.

[J. Bellone]

Ted,
Vince Black is the real deal. Not much chi talk, and he like my internal teacher (Tim Cartmell) always emphasis structure in producing power.

good training,
Joe

[Rick Wilson]

I have not studied Xing I but have read some and studied some videos. The similarities were very clear to me. The Xing I martial philosophy also appealed to my Uechi nature.

I find Seisan Kata very Xing I.

My teacher, David Mott Sensei, has explored Xing I and I think would also agree to the relationship (particularly the internal part). He told me once that a Xing I practitioner once showed him a Chicken form (I think it was chicken) that had an identical sequence to part of Seisan -- the sweeping connecting ridgehand strikes, ,the three circling heel palm strikes, the hand on hand finger strike, and the knee.

Rick

[XingYi Dragon]

What is the seisan form? I'm actually looking to get some discussion going on what uechi-ryu works with, in a more substantial sense. I actually think that uechi was created as an external form of xingyichuan, and it appeared to be a very effective external form of xingyi, to the people who could keep their feet on the ground. When the uechi practitioners spar, they seem to get on their toes a lot, like the average boxer, causeing them to loose their root. Are they taught to do this? I would think they would be subjecting themselves to a push, press, or rush sequense, No?

[Scott Watkins]

Vince Black is way powerful. I have seen him and come across another of Hsu Hong Chi's direct students. There is always a yin and yang nature to everything. I believe that martial power is a combination of this yin an yang nature Chi(energy) and Li(musculuar strength)

Scott

[XingYi Dragon]

But in this sense muscle and chi are not two sides of the same coin. They work in unison to create yin movement or yang movement, and in xingyichuan, taijichuan, or baguazahn, if you can feel yourself using muscle for power in your body (other than in your legs holding you up) you ARE doing something wrong. The muscles are needed to perform the basic posture, they hold your arm up, but you don't wind it up to use that power in a strike the same way.

[Bill Glasheen]

Interesting discussion. I didn't want to get in the way of the chi paradigm talk, so I stayed in the background a bit.

Good to hear from you, Glenn. I'll be calling David shortly; I've just been extremely busy. Also good to know some of my favorite lurkers are still around.

I just have some random comments...

I've seen the Taiji, Bagua, Xingyi packaging before. I had a few opportunities to work out with Mr. Smith in the 1970s (it was about a 2.5 hour drive from my old stomping grounds) and got a chance to work on some of each of these styles. Mr. Smith - in his unique way - would have you believe that these three styles are different and nothing else helps. But I've seen parallels. When I could walk through the Yang style short form, I found many of the movements similar to movements in Uechi sanseiryu. One movement in particular is Uechi's shoken sukuiage uke. Sorry - can't remember the colorful Chinese name of the equivalent in the taiji form, but there is definitely a nearly identical movement (perhaps I'll edit it in later when I check my Robert Smith book on the form). There were enough differences though (like being on heels vs. on toes) that they drove me nuts trying to do both. The bagua "walking the circle" stuff reminded me a lot of the tenshin movements in Uechi ryu.

I never did much in the way of the XingYi forms and style. However Mr. Bob Galeone in the D.C. area is someone who can tell you a lot about the similarities between the two styles. Bob started Uechi ryu eons ago in Rhode Island. Due to his rheumatoid arthritis, he's had to make some choices about where to continue his dedicated training. He passed through years of study with Aikikai aikido (Setomi sensei) before embracing XingYi. Never the wallflower, Bob gave a very entertaining seminar last March where he stated that he had finally found his home in martial arts, calling many of his pursuits in younger years a "waste of time." Thought-provoking controversial statements aside, one could definitely appreciate through his seminar that the path of one style made it easy to connect to the path in the other.

Here's a comment worth responding to. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

I actually think that Uechi was created as an external form of xingyichuan, and it appeared to be a very effective external form of xingyi, to the people who could keep their feet on the ground. When the uechi practitioners spar, they seem to get on their toes a lot, like the average boxer, causeing them to loose their root. Are they taught to do this? I would think they would be subjecting themselves to a push, press, or rush sequense, No?

I'll go out on a limb here and dare to make a few comments.

* People are not taught by the Uechi kata to "get on their toes a lot" except for the fact that movement generally is done via pivoting on the balls of the feet vs. pivoting on the heels in the big three internal styles. The bouncing and fancy footwork are layered on a style that can accommodate this type of movement quite easily. However there are folks like me with a slightly arthritic knee that are more than happy to stay more grounded.

After working with experienced tournament fighters, my take on the bouncing is that it adds noise to the movement to help disguise intent while shifting and advancing. It's similar to the "juking" that a football or basketball player does to get by an opponent. Additionally, both the Uechi stylist and a certain breed of tournament fighter spend lots of time attacking the legs. While occasionally the intent is to destroy aspects of the limb, sometimes it's nothing more than taking the leg out from underneath an opponent (via a sweep) when 50% (or more) of the weight is there (generally on the front leg). The goal is not so much to get the person down as it is to break their center so that the opponent cannot successfully defend a subsequent attack.

* One is not necessarily subject to a push, press, or rush sequence because the advanced forms and other exercises suggest mobility is an ingredient easily layered into the style. Tenshin movements are all about playing "bull vs. toreador" with an opponent. While the soft stylist may choose to slip and slide and shift with feet anchored, the Uechi stylist accomplishes the same end in much the same way as say an aikido stylist.

- Bill

[XingYi Dragon]

Of course, there are a lot of similarities, between any martial art, even those developed independently of the others. There are certain ways the body moves, and some ways are just more effective than others, so people arrived at these conclusions independently of others. That’s why I’d never say nothing else helps. As a Xing Yi practitioner, I’d still say my next choice of martial art would be Wing Chun, not PaKua or Taiji, although I have a lot of respect for Chen family taiji. (Yang has a sordid history where most people don’t learn the true form, because of political reasons, but I’ll not get into that unless asked.)

You brought up the circle walking in Bagua, and (believe it or not) there is circle walking in Xing Yi. A lot of people think Xing Yi is only linear but the circle walking is called the Pangen. If learning the linear forms is the bachelors, and learning Wu Xing (the elemental form) Za Shi Chui (the twelve animal forms united), and An Shen Po Quan (The whole in application) is a masters, then mastering pangen on top of that is the Ph.D. It takes everything off of the center and goes wide open. Of course everyone’s going to call me a biased but I agree with Bob Galeone, but I have a different reason. They teach xing yi by teaching the fourth step in what is too often a drawn out process. In most martial arts you learn block, then strike, then block followed by strike, then both at the same time. Xing Yi, teaches do both at the same time from the beginning, and when you do that we’re going to teach you punch kick and block all at the same time. You learn to do that, while still being stable. All blocks are strikes, and all strikes are blocks. Pi Chuan will block a jab and then with the same movement strike the face. I can’t help to think Mr. Galeone is also correct in treating his arthritis. In my stint in hapkido, I learned how much external arts can wear on joints and ligaments.

In the movement aspect, Xing Yi is very mobile. Tai chi is not quite as mobile, but it is more defensive where xing yi tends to be the most aggressive of internal arts, evident in the desire to block an attack with an attack. In my years of experience, I actually learned to like juking. It creates more openings than misinformation. In my earlier years, I would do some san soo tournaments with my xing yi, (frequently having problems since xing yi targets legs hard and uses open palms) before I quit that, and found the juking is the worst enemy to your root. Of course I don’t know any tournament fighter, sparer, or fighter, that is successful without keeping the destruction of your opponent’s root in mind. I tend to do that at the shoulder though with sweeps and joint locks.
With Xing yi’s root, not using as much dancing, it can’t be called a soft system as much as tai chi. It heavily favors having an opponent use his power to impale himself, although there are throws and trips available.

Ultimately, however, I don’t want to say that other systems don’t work. It sounds that way sometimes, because I know what works for me. I actually encouraged some people to try out Uechi ryu for cross training. Generally, it’s better not to trash talk any system, because that starts fights, and I don’t start fights because no matter how good you are, you’re probably going to get hit, and I don’t like getting hit.

[Glenn]

I believe Xingyi is also Romanized as Hsing-I, which is a fairly popular style often viewed as being in the same family as Tai Chi Chuan (Taiqiquan) and Pakua (Bagua), and often a teacher will teach 2 or all 3 of them. Robert W. Smith has a great book out on Hsing-I. What I find most interesting about a possible connection between Uechi Ryu and Xingyi is that Xingyi is classified as a northern Chinese style, while Uechi Ryu is generally viewed as being derived from southern Chinese styles.

------------------
Glenn Humphress
Lincoln, NE

[GSantaniello]

I have found over the years that there are many styles and systems that contain simular elements of uechi-ryu. One should not be surprised at all to find such internal elements and or approches to share some common ground.

There are also many differences however, what i have found about euchi-ryu over the past 30 years is that is very "adaptable" and it is up to the individual practicioner to advance his/her understanding of it all.

To often students/practioners depend solely on their instructers for all explanation.

Respectfully,



------------------

Gary S.

[XingYi Dragon]

Is that book by John Berger? I know of a Ways of Seeing, involving photography that I use in my work all the time, despite the fact that my work relates to class struggles depicted in painting and sculpture.

And, ah ha, we’re getting to the meat of what I have been noticing. A lot of martial arts relate, which we have generally agreed on. I think, however, that the similarities in Uechi-ryu and XingYi are remarkably uncanny, at least to Hebei XingYi. The first thing that caught my attention was the potential for the movements, and their similarities in form. I encourage anyone to watch a form, since the pictures in books never get into things like the wu xing form where the elements become hidden, and start to look like other martial arts forms. The elements are just a very streamlined way of fighting.
The Pangen is just refered to as circle walking, so I feel your pain in circle block, because I don’t know anybody who has had a bigger problem than a bumped head by running into a "walker." However, otherwise you are so talking like a xing yi dude right now. It makes me think about changing my vacation time because we’d have so much fun bouncing ideas off of eachother in our respective styles.

You don’t have to read the whole quotes again but this is the xing yi white crane spreads wings (don’t confuse it with any tai chi version, because they look very different.)
"It can be all the things people want to make it (mostly blocks), but some are adamant about doing the movement as if you are going to rip someone's arm off. Basic applications from Seisan kata have you believe that an arm swinging motion followed by a circle is a groin shot (to the back) followed by a turn and release. But my favorite application is a whack (to the front) of the person's groin followed by swinging the arm around and on to the back of the person's neck when they bend over (in pain, or to avoid the initial groin shot).

This is t’ai (or Roc, or Phoenix, depending on whether or not they translated it. It’s a mythical bird.)
"Another favorite twist of mine is a knee thrust followed by three one-knuckle shots done down and forward. In a similar Fuzhou suparinpei form, they have a double knee thrust followed by four of these shoken shots down and forward. Or are they really down and forward shots."

Xing yi also has regular backwards glances and they have movements that are either a wind up for an expanded strike or a back strike. Either would work, and work well.

Also in wu xing you have one arm suppressing or blocking, one leg kneeing or kicking, and the other arm drilling a punch. Sometimes the shoulders and hips are active at the same time for more than chi power. They may very well be trying to strike themselves. Like you say, it is not the easiest to accomplish, so a lot of people wonder why that’s where we start, but as soon as you can do it, you can do it, and even before you do it well, you may still be able to make it effectively.

Xing yi also has regular backwards glances and they have movements that are either a wind up for an expanded strike or a back strike. Either would work, and work well.

It’s my turn to make a leap here. I think Mr. Galeone learned a new way to view things, and decided that something was more appealing, not because it worked better, but there were intrinsic features he enjoyed. In my case the Nei gong is as appealing as the fighting skills, and with the sameness I see in the two arts as sort of regular aspirin, and one with a gel coating. Both will dull pain, but the one with the coating takes longer but won’t irritate your stomach, or arthritis, as the case may be. I hope I’m making sense here. That is also why I’ll take an even further step out and recommend cross training for each art in the other, to get that wider perspective. The advantage being that they aren’t too far off from each other so that you compromise what you already know. In switching from tai chi back you said you had problems with the pivots. Granted xing yi pivots on the heels a lot, but it also frequently uses a toe on one foot and a heel on the other since being on toes only makes tug attacks more threatening.

In summation. The two are amazingly the same, and cross training is good for skills and perspecitve.