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 Post subject: Stomp or swing?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2002 3:46 am 
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Cutting right to the chase......I've never felt any fondness for the side kicks we perform in Kanshiwa and feel they really are not that effective.The position of the hip set in sanchin limits the amount of rotation we can put to the leg and foot which leaves the toes higher than the heel.The kick is difficult to focus and ends up being more of a hard "slap"than a sharp focused technique.The swing and arc of the foot requires our target distance to be very precise.Have you ever kicked a heavy that was a wee bit too close? It twists the ankle and puts a hurt on the knee. Experimenting and exchanging the swing for more of a stomping motion(requires knee to be much higher)I find it much easier to focus more power into the target.I also find that target distance doesn't have to be as percise.Is this changing the technique too much? It is somewhat slower,but I feel,more effective. Anyone in Forum Land have another spin on the execution of these kicks?


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 Post subject: Stomp or swing?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2002 7:45 am 
Nosib, as a career kyu please keep in mind my posts must be taken with a grain of salt. Image

Cutting to the chase....who says the kick is really a kick?

Raise your knee in conflict your opponent may drop hands to defend the kick leaving the head free to strike Image,and that's a good thing!

In a hard soft style not all strikes need to be the final blow. Could this soft blade foot just take out the balance and drop the opponents center? Nothing wrong with easy pickings.

The stomp,I like the mindset. You don't have to do the John Wayne wind up to deliver the result in my look at it a simple weight shift will give you the same result. Don't go high,target knee and drop all your weight thru the target.

Toes higher than the heels? Who cares the toes will be happy to follow the heels as they hit the target. Roll the ankle and hit with the toes, hell your the chap delivering the blow,hit them with what ever you figure they deserve. Image

A simple kata .....no. An important kata, the first kata that comes to us with a prearranged bunka! This is the kata,this is an interpretation.......many more are out there. Good luck on the search the more you find the more you realize you've scratched the surface. That's what makes this so much fun!

Is this changing the technique too much? I would suggest that if in the name of tradition one should not be a makiwara. If it does not work adapt ones uechi to ones own body type. We will all apply the techniques to our own individual advantage....adapt the moves to your own body type and your own style or interpretation of Uechi. And if you have a Sensei run your interpretations past him or her they may also point you in a new direction.

Laird



[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited January 08, 2002).]


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 Post subject: Stomp or swing?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2002 7:49 am 
From the lead leg this kick works well as a stop kick by placing it into the hip/upper thigh joint of an advancing opponent's lead leg. Perform this much the same as a Muay Tai push kick (a push front kick from the lead leg) is utilized. Done this way it is hard to see, requires little power to take the hip out of place, and it is an accessible target not hard to hit.

From the rear leg the kick can be performed as an extended Sanchin step (don't step and place your foot on the ground, but kick right through the stepping motion). Done into the thigh of your opponent this can generate surprising power.

Both these methods do not require much hip rotation.

You don't have to change the kata, only be aware of how you would use it in application.


Rick

[This message has been edited by Rick Wilson (edited January 08, 2002).]


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 Post subject: Stomp or swing?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2002 8:06 am 
This is not in relation to the kata but to stomping , a lot of people focus on the knee when its much simpler to stomp on the foot , those little bones break easy .


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 Post subject: Stomp or swing?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2002 8:13 am 
I agree with Sensei Wilsons look at this .

The kick off of the front leg may be delivered as a push jam kind of technique. (Think jab) lighter but attention getting stopping one in their tracks.Fast!

The rear leg is the power shot for most of us. (The big right hand if you were an orthodox boxer)Slower and harder to land,but well work throwing even when it won't get in Image

You don't have to change the kata , only be aware of how to use it.

Amen! And that's the goal in a nut shell.

Laird


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 Post subject: Stomp or swing?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2002 2:17 pm 
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Whether to swing or to stomp - that's the question. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Experimenting and exchanging the swing for more of a stomping motion(requires knee to be much higher)I find it much easier to focus more power into the target.I also find that target distance doesn't have to be as percise.Is this changing the technique too much? It is somewhat slower,but I feel,more effective.
Now I've never been shy with words or opinions, and I won't start now. My initial comment is "Right on target, nosib!" You have properly assessed this technique. You are doing what we teachers want you to do with the motions you train in your kata - try them out and see what happens.

I've used the analogy about designing cars before. If you don't have a wind tunnel, you come up with all kinds of bizarre looking (albeit neat) designs. But put that car body in a 120 mph wind (160 kph for you metric types) and you suddenly decide you'd rather have the body look a bit different. The same goes for a karate technique. First...make sure you know what the thing is supposed to be used for. Sometimes the function isn't what you think it is. Sometimes it's just a generalized motion that has many applications which operate on the same set of principles. But form and function must go hand in hand.

Rick - in my opinion - is right on the money with the most practical (albeit not the only) use of that technique. Mayamiya - a former Okinawan champion - demonstrated this at one of the Thompson Island Uechi camps in the 1980s. It looked like something right out of the hojoundo. Basically he would grab his opponent, stomp in the femoral crease, and then bash the guy's head as he folded forward.

Let's start with an anatomy lesson. I've sometimes heard folks refer to this as the inguinal area. I think this isn't quite right (Ian may correct me if I'm wrong here. I'm a systems physiologist - not an anatomist). The inguinal canal is a little lower, and where the testicles drop through the abdominal wall when the fetus is developing from asexual being to a male. What I'm talking about is the fold between the leg and the abdomen. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
The position of the hip set in sanchin limits the amount of rotation we can put to the leg and foot which leaves the toes higher than the heel.
Excellent observation! Now...take a look at the angle of the femoral crease, and compare it to the angle of the blade of the foot when an opponent is opposite, and kicking with the same side (left foot to left crease of opponent; right foot to right crease of opponent). By George, they are the same!

Now let's switch a bit from anatomy to physiology. Ever had a doctor sit you on a table and hit your patellar tendon with a rubber hammer? What happens? Foot pops out, doesn't it? Now take your own body. Start by standing straight up. Using a loose hammer fist, drop it right into your femoral crease with dead weight. If you hit the right spot, your body will buckle. It's the exact same reflex. They are all over the body, and can be triggered if you find the right spot (generally right where the tendon of a major muscle attaches to the bone). What Mayamiya was doing was triggering this reflex to break his opponent's center. Once he had his opponent (firmly in grasp) with butt out and head forward, it was all over except for the ippon.

As for the "swing" mentality of this kick, I remind you of the fundamentals of physics. They tell us that the force trajectory is tangential to the path of motion. What I'm saying is that the only time you should be swinging this kick (resulting in an arc-like path of the foot) is if you want to ring those two bells between the fellow's legs. Otherwise all you are doing is wrecking your knee. Sure...you can make your gi snap really neat if you snap your leg like that. But you aren't in battle with your gi.

I also agree that the top of opponent's foot is a great alternate location. So is the back of the knee (another reflex point) if you are behind the person.

Another good application of the technique is to grab the person (up close), pull their weight on their front leg, and then kick just slightly under the line of their front leg. If you do it right, you can dump them, and they are ready to be finished.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Stomp or swing?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2002 6:44 pm 
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You have observed a difference in "how to kick" that we have adopted in our Shorin-ji as two different kicks.

Swing kicks (powered by the hip) are called snap kicks and stomping kicks (aimed by the hip but powered by the knee) are called thrust kicks.

We do front thrust and snap (hitting with the toes or ball of the foot) and side thrust and snap (hitting with the heel).

Snap kicks are for times you need speed with more precise targeting and thrust kicks are for when you need a harder hitting kick and have the time to lift the knee higher to develope it. In practical terms, use snap kicks to enter, thrust kicks to finish.

Keep practicing both... Image

------------------
The Fighting Old Man


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 Post subject: Stomp or swing?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2002 8:20 pm 
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Sochin

Actually I do both thrust and snap kicks. Most of my thrust kicks come from my Japanese karate experience, and the Uechi style does primarily snap kicks.

I view the differences as strictly a "time on contact" issue. The Uechi system generally elects not to hold the kick out long because 1) you don't need to if you hit with the big toe, and 2) the Uechi stylist likes to grab legs. Regardless of thrust or snap, my foot follows the same trajectory when I execute the kick. Again - this is an issue of the direction of the force vector.

Unless doing something like a roundhouse kick, I ain't got that swing. Do op, do op, do op...

- Bill


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 Post subject: Stomp or swing?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2002 11:23 pm 
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Bill..You da man---where do I send my check? Thanks guys.


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 Post subject: Stomp or swing?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2002 3:12 am 
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Good thread.

There have been many interpretations of this “side kick” by a number of respected teachers. But the people to listen to are the ones who have had occasions to use it in a real street fight.

Most feel that a “stomp” __ as in trying to break the opponent’s knee_ is the safest application when the action is fast and furious and the target elusive. Using the edge of the foot as in a glancing “pressure point” attack has also been discussed, but not very well received, especially by people who have faced street opponents.

When I was competing in the 60’s, the side thrust kick was my favorite, as it can be deployed in a split second with much driving power behind it.

I held four boards for master Henry Cho [TQD] at a John Hancock Hall demo, once, and the side kick came out of nowhere in a flash, pulverizing those boards. That kick could truly kill a man.

Yet there is a strong argument for a properly executed “snap kick”! Just a different type of weapon seeking striking variations.

According to Toyama sensei__ There are two kanji pronounced "sokuto". One is the adverb meaning
"sideways" and applies to the contemporary-style "sokuto Geri".

The other is a noun and applies to a part of the foot. The "sokuto" used
for kicking in the older style is the "side of the heel".

Old-style sokuto
Geri as taught by Kanbun Sensei was a "side-of-the-heel snapping kick" and
was delivered straightforward, same as a Shomen Geri. The toes were turned
inward (same as a Sanchin stance) and pulled upward toward the body, leaving
the heel out and forward as the business end of the kick.

The hip did not
rotate into it, making this a true snap-kick (as opposed to a thrust kick)
but the heel did considerable damage as it struck any target softer than
itself -- ribcage, groin area, inner thigh, femoral triangle, side of the
attacker's knee (inner or outside), etc.

The smaller, more fragile bones of the foot were kept safely pulled back
with the rest of the foot, toward the body of the defender.

How this got changed into a "sideways-snapping kick" has more to do with the
need for the judging board (or audience) to see the kick delivery during
bunkai, etc. Part of the modernization process.

I have seen more students injured with ankle and knee twisting problems using this [modernized] kick in kumite and sparring that I care to remember, and that includes yours truly.

My belief is the safest way to learn and practice it is in accordance with the teachings of Toyama sensei, if in fact; we are to rely on this kick as a weapon.

Even so, we must be careful, because under stress many mistakes in “structure” will occur, placing your ankle and small bones of the foot and your knee at risk.



------------------
Van Canna


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 Post subject: Stomp or swing?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2002 2:38 pm 
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Van

Good to see you.

I think there has been much confusion concerning this kick, and a lot of it has to do with what I believe is an incorrect translation. As I understand it, soku to translates as foot blade, just as shu to translates as hand blade. Check with Gary K on that, but certainly there are kanji for those sounds that have that translation. Now...how in the heck did that get translated as a side kick??? Perhaps it's another one of those style identity things that George has talked about. Other Okinawan styles may have a "similar" technique with a quite different function (such as the classic yoko geri or side kick), and the confusion begins. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Old-style sokuto Geri as taught by Kanbun Sensei was a "side-of-the-heel snapping kick" and was delivered straightforward
I'm with you on this one. I see the Uechi sokuto geri as nothing more than a shomen geri (front kick) done with the blade of the foot, just as the sokusen geri is a shomen geri done with the big toe. In my book the leg does the same thing, and one just chooses which of a number of surfaces (big toe, ball of foot, foot blade, heel) to hit with, depending on the application. Thus there's really only one kick in all of the Uechi ryu kata.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited January 11, 2002).]


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 Post subject: Stomp or swing?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2002 3:22 pm 
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[quote]The smaller, more fragile bones of the foot were kept safely pulled back
with the rest of the foot, toward the body of the defender.[/i] I've already shown the language similarities between soku to (foot blade) and shu to (hand blade). It just occurred to me that the functional aspect of soku to that you are trying to convey is also true for shu to. With the hand blade technique, one really isn't hitting with the entire side of the hand. Instead, one hits with that small point at the base of the side of the hand.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Stomp or swing?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2002 3:23 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The smaller, more fragile bones of the foot were kept safely pulled back
with the rest of the foot, toward the body of the defender.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I've already shown the language similarities between soku to (foot blade) and shu to (hand blade). It just occurred to me that the functional aspect of soku to that you are trying to convey is also true for shu to. With the hand blade technique, one really isn't hitting with the entire side of the hand. Instead, one hits with that small point at the base of the side of the hand.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Stomp or swing?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2002 6:00 pm 
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In the form of Shorin Ryu that I studied, the side kick is done with the heel as the primary impact point, possibly because several of the ranking Sensei had seen the damage the metatarsils can take if they are hit with a good block.

Thrust and snap striking forms were taught, the thrust being used to move the opponent away and/or for deep penetration of soft target areas. The snap was more like a jab, as noted.

This technique, more than any other except the backfist, were my life savings on several occasions on the street. The side kick is FAST when done properly, offers little body target to straight line attacks favored by counterpunchers and has more than enough energy to cause serious damage.

Knee breaks with it are my heart's delight, but it is also a great stop-hit if you can set it up right.

The technique as I was taught it also offers quite a bit of mobility from stance, forward, back and for tai sabaki turning should you decide not to commit to the kick.

All in all, look at the heel variation for the thrust form. It works!

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.


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 Post subject: Stomp or swing?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2002 10:55 pm 
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Good points by all,

I am one that focuses tremendously on the structure of all motion, tools, and energies.

The alignment of our body is of utmost importance in any application of speed, power, penetration etc.

About the side kick, try using the structure of the rear hip. By this I mean as you begin the kick drop your rear hip and slightly forward. This takes controlled practice at first. But once it is within your neuro-muscular system, it will be there.

The reason for the drop in the rear hip is it creates an amazing amount of potential energy in the structure of your body, which in turn can be released into your opponent with the sid kick.

Rambled long enough.

Good training

Shadowhands

------------------
My world.....the Life of Peace....the Art of War....the Way of the Warrior.


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