Many movement applications from our katas are not as obvious at first. Even though there are arm and joint locks, we don't see them immediately when we learn the kata first. My question is this:
Are there any choking techniques "hidden" in Uechi-Ryu? I personally couldn't think of one from the top of my head. Of course I understand that different practitioners can interpret a movement in different ways, but i would like to hear all of those opinions.
Thank you in advance.
Respectfully,
Vladimir
Chokes in Uechi-Ryu
Moderator: Available
Chokes in Uechi-Ryu
Personally, I have alwayse thought of the double tempel strike in the beginning of seisan to have a choking application, either from behind an opponent or from the side.
-
Guest
Chokes in Uechi-Ryu
Last year I unfortunately was involved in an altercation.(unfortunate because I failed to talk my way out and responded physical attack push)
Fortunately my opponent failed to land a stike. I also discovered myself performing techniques I had never utilized before and they all seemed to come from kata, there was a choking component to them.
My aggressor attempted to push me backwards thru a doorway.
I responded with a move similar to the three double strikes in sanchin. I drove my arms between his outstreached arms. I then grabbed for a handfull of colarbone and or neck meat.Being winter all I got were two hands full of heavy parka and a tiny bit of neck.
I then brought my elbows back to sanchin .This off balanced the aggressor.
I rotated my knuckles to face one another at the same time. This utilized two chokes.
1. the coat lapels were cutting of the blood flow in the side of the neck.
2. The knuckles were pinching the windpipe causing some mild airway restriction.
I entered the room with the individual leaning down and forward in this grip. As I advanced his heels were dragging on the floor. Totally off balanced,I was supporting him with the choke.
I choose a spot to place him. I was watching his face intently. The choke was now weaker, I assumed the double shoken hand position(seisan/seichin) the eyes dialated the tongue protruded. (I may have tweeked a pressure point as well)
I took him to the floor his hands were on my wrists. I moved them to the center of his chest and pinned them with my knee. I then grabbed his throat and pulled his head off of the floor. His neck and head were lifted by my hand around his windpipe. My hand was in a modified bushiken hand position squeezing and pulling. My other hand was chambered to stike the head.
We them quickly ended our little conversation without the strike being delivered.
I these brief few seconds I discovered all kinds of choking stuff.
I now look at those double shokens to the waist in a new way. The double arm thrusts in sanchin are now my favorite part of any kata,I also focus huge attention to bringing the elbows back to sanchin with power.
My look at uechi changed a bit that day.
Sorry to ramble
Laird
Fortunately my opponent failed to land a stike. I also discovered myself performing techniques I had never utilized before and they all seemed to come from kata, there was a choking component to them.
My aggressor attempted to push me backwards thru a doorway.
I responded with a move similar to the three double strikes in sanchin. I drove my arms between his outstreached arms. I then grabbed for a handfull of colarbone and or neck meat.Being winter all I got were two hands full of heavy parka and a tiny bit of neck.
I then brought my elbows back to sanchin .This off balanced the aggressor.
I rotated my knuckles to face one another at the same time. This utilized two chokes.
1. the coat lapels were cutting of the blood flow in the side of the neck.
2. The knuckles were pinching the windpipe causing some mild airway restriction.
I entered the room with the individual leaning down and forward in this grip. As I advanced his heels were dragging on the floor. Totally off balanced,I was supporting him with the choke.
I choose a spot to place him. I was watching his face intently. The choke was now weaker, I assumed the double shoken hand position(seisan/seichin) the eyes dialated the tongue protruded. (I may have tweeked a pressure point as well)
I took him to the floor his hands were on my wrists. I moved them to the center of his chest and pinned them with my knee. I then grabbed his throat and pulled his head off of the floor. His neck and head were lifted by my hand around his windpipe. My hand was in a modified bushiken hand position squeezing and pulling. My other hand was chambered to stike the head.
We them quickly ended our little conversation without the strike being delivered.
I these brief few seconds I discovered all kinds of choking stuff.
I now look at those double shokens to the waist in a new way. The double arm thrusts in sanchin are now my favorite part of any kata,I also focus huge attention to bringing the elbows back to sanchin with power.
My look at uechi changed a bit that day.
Sorry to ramble
Laird
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Chokes in Uechi-Ryu
Vladimir
Actually there is.
The most obvious is what some folks call the "elbow strike." The technique I'm thinking of is more properly called a lateral vascular neck restraint, to use the terminology of law enforcement types. The goal isn't to restrict the airway, but actually to occlude the jugular veins. By stopping the outflow from the brain, you effectively stop the bloodflow TO the brain. Within about 5 seconds, the KO is delivered.
Generally it's difficult to envision it in the early kata. Thinking along the lines of the original three (sanchin, seisan, sanseiryu), it's actually the last one where the application is most obvious. In that form, one charges into an elbow "technique," and then turns. It doesn't take much in the way of imagination to figure out how you can adapt it to moving in on someone (the block allowing the entry), and working your way around to the back of them (rather than thinking of the turn as facing a new opponent). From there, conversion of the elbow movement to the neck restraint technique only takes the knowledge of how to apply it properly. Any good judoka can show that.
A second place - also in sanseiryu - is with a technique sometimes called shoken sukuiage uke (one knuckle punch, scooping/lifting block). If you have someone shooting for your legs, you can employ the technique by wrapping it around their head (their head is face down). The subsequent "thrust" that is done at the end - along with the other hand involvement - creates a literal choke hold and even possibly a neck straining technique. The shokens in this case can be thought of as grabbing to establish the hold in one of a number of ways.
Finally there is a double shoken position at the end of kanshiwa and twice in sanseiryu that can be thought of as the classic judogi lateral vascular neck restraint applied from the front. Again, shokens can be thought of as grabbers (grabbing the lapels) and the backs of the fists can be used just as the judoka would in doing this KO technique.
Those are the obvious ones to me, Vladimir. There are some more subtle ones that can be considered, like application of the double scooping movements. But these three are both highly functional and plausible as applications.
It might be interesting if we can get someone like Mike Murphy in on this thread to see if he can add any more.
- Bill
Actually there is.
The most obvious is what some folks call the "elbow strike." The technique I'm thinking of is more properly called a lateral vascular neck restraint, to use the terminology of law enforcement types. The goal isn't to restrict the airway, but actually to occlude the jugular veins. By stopping the outflow from the brain, you effectively stop the bloodflow TO the brain. Within about 5 seconds, the KO is delivered.
Generally it's difficult to envision it in the early kata. Thinking along the lines of the original three (sanchin, seisan, sanseiryu), it's actually the last one where the application is most obvious. In that form, one charges into an elbow "technique," and then turns. It doesn't take much in the way of imagination to figure out how you can adapt it to moving in on someone (the block allowing the entry), and working your way around to the back of them (rather than thinking of the turn as facing a new opponent). From there, conversion of the elbow movement to the neck restraint technique only takes the knowledge of how to apply it properly. Any good judoka can show that.
A second place - also in sanseiryu - is with a technique sometimes called shoken sukuiage uke (one knuckle punch, scooping/lifting block). If you have someone shooting for your legs, you can employ the technique by wrapping it around their head (their head is face down). The subsequent "thrust" that is done at the end - along with the other hand involvement - creates a literal choke hold and even possibly a neck straining technique. The shokens in this case can be thought of as grabbing to establish the hold in one of a number of ways.
Finally there is a double shoken position at the end of kanshiwa and twice in sanseiryu that can be thought of as the classic judogi lateral vascular neck restraint applied from the front. Again, shokens can be thought of as grabbers (grabbing the lapels) and the backs of the fists can be used just as the judoka would in doing this KO technique.
Those are the obvious ones to me, Vladimir. There are some more subtle ones that can be considered, like application of the double scooping movements. But these three are both highly functional and plausible as applications.
It might be interesting if we can get someone like Mike Murphy in on this thread to see if he can add any more.
- Bill
Chokes in Uechi-Ryu
The ones that I have thought of as chokes (overlapping with Bill's ideas) are:
The kiba dachi and elbow, as in Kanshiwa; the right arm squeezes the blood flow between your bicep and forearm, the left hand is convenient for rubbing under the nose causing the head to lift back (a counter to tucking the chin), and the long stance means you're removing your gonads from reach and or dragging the foe to the ground.
The double hiraken strike in Kanshu (and later in Seiryu on) is preceded by fingertips to the throat, then yanking the hands down into sanchin in hirakens. Think of grabbing lapels cross armed, and yanking down turning the arms over. In it's simplest form, the lapel grab and yank down is a ... sanchin strike.
The motions first seen in Seichin, used in Sanseiryu just before the first long stance, can be used as a choke. The right hand circles around the head from behind so the right forearm ends up under the throat; the left hand pushes the head down as the right forearm lifts up. The knee lift can strike the face. Ended a semifinal in UFC 1 if I remember.
Even a simple wauke can be a choke. We often do the circle out, directed away from the body; if that's the case, think of a left wauke where you grab the foe's left lapel with your right hand and pull down and toward you with the guard motion. The left hand grabs the right lapel, and circles over to their left, circling up and out. Easy to counter if they know what's going on and have a hand free, because they can pull down on your left hand freeing their throat; otherwise, a useful technique from judo.
The kiba dachi and elbow, as in Kanshiwa; the right arm squeezes the blood flow between your bicep and forearm, the left hand is convenient for rubbing under the nose causing the head to lift back (a counter to tucking the chin), and the long stance means you're removing your gonads from reach and or dragging the foe to the ground.
The double hiraken strike in Kanshu (and later in Seiryu on) is preceded by fingertips to the throat, then yanking the hands down into sanchin in hirakens. Think of grabbing lapels cross armed, and yanking down turning the arms over. In it's simplest form, the lapel grab and yank down is a ... sanchin strike.
The motions first seen in Seichin, used in Sanseiryu just before the first long stance, can be used as a choke. The right hand circles around the head from behind so the right forearm ends up under the throat; the left hand pushes the head down as the right forearm lifts up. The knee lift can strike the face. Ended a semifinal in UFC 1 if I remember.
Even a simple wauke can be a choke. We often do the circle out, directed away from the body; if that's the case, think of a left wauke where you grab the foe's left lapel with your right hand and pull down and toward you with the guard motion. The left hand grabs the right lapel, and circles over to their left, circling up and out. Easy to counter if they know what's going on and have a hand free, because they can pull down on your left hand freeing their throat; otherwise, a useful technique from judo.
Chokes in Uechi-Ryu
Thanks everyone. This is exactly what I was looking for. Again, I think it is the matter of personal interpretation. I am not sure if the original Sanseiryu movements described were actually intended to be the chokes, when they were designed, but I can certainly see how these can be used as ones. Thanks again for your input.
Regards,
Vladimir.
Regards,
Vladimir.
-
f.Channell
- Posts: 3541
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Valhalla
Chokes in Uechi-Ryu
The front chokes are very easily countered by a decent grappler. All the chokes I have luck with are from behind. The circle block done Van Canna style spinning the person so he's facing the same way as you, and then clamping the naked choke, or single wing on from behind is something to try. A great way to introduce students to this is substituting the last move in Kyu kumite, roundhouse kicks followed by an unbalancing to the rear while clamping on the choke. Choke them till they submit so you know you got it. I suggest following the Judo tradition of training chokes after 13, the younger kids get frightened easily by these.
f.
[This message has been edited by f.Channell (edited March 22, 2002).]
f.
[This message has been edited by f.Channell (edited March 22, 2002).]
Chokes in Uechi-Ryu
Vladmir,
You know what... don't even worry whether it's in the kata or not. More important than the "hidden" theory in the kata, find those who know how to do chokes and work on application against a resistant partner.
If one to has apply it, I doubt it matters which Uechi kata has it, just whether you can get it on or not. As previous posts pointed out, if you can spin someone out with some of the Uechi techniques and take an effective hold...
david
You know what... don't even worry whether it's in the kata or not. More important than the "hidden" theory in the kata, find those who know how to do chokes and work on application against a resistant partner.
If one to has apply it, I doubt it matters which Uechi kata has it, just whether you can get it on or not. As previous posts pointed out, if you can spin someone out with some of the Uechi techniques and take an effective hold...
david
Chokes in Uechi-Ryu
Vladimir
Choking applications can certainly be interpeted from many of the movements in kata. With all of the grasping and circular techniques in Uechi kata all you need is your imagination to create chokes and choking combinations.
I tend to agree with David in that don't look for hidden techniques but instead create your own applications. It might be a good idea to first learn the chokes without kata in mind and then see how they fit within the Uechi Ryu system.
Choking applications can certainly be interpeted from many of the movements in kata. With all of the grasping and circular techniques in Uechi kata all you need is your imagination to create chokes and choking combinations.
I tend to agree with David in that don't look for hidden techniques but instead create your own applications. It might be a good idea to first learn the chokes without kata in mind and then see how they fit within the Uechi Ryu system.
Chokes in Uechi-Ryu
David and Jim,
Thank you for your responses. I agree that it all depends on the imagination and creativity of the practitioner. I, personally would not rely on karate to learn an effective choking technique. I was just curious from the historical point of view.
It's good to hear the Uechi-grappler's point of view on this. Thanks again, Jim.
Respectfully,
Vladimir.
[This message has been edited by Vladimir (edited March 25, 2002).]
Thank you for your responses. I agree that it all depends on the imagination and creativity of the practitioner. I, personally would not rely on karate to learn an effective choking technique. I was just curious from the historical point of view.
It's good to hear the Uechi-grappler's point of view on this. Thanks again, Jim.
Respectfully,
Vladimir.
[This message has been edited by Vladimir (edited March 25, 2002).]
