Hi all.
Is boxing a martial art?
Ive been studying judo for 4 years and i reckon im in for life. But i only recently began to see it as a martial art. I guess i had a low opinion of it, compared to the striking arts. I know its foolish to compare arts, and that was not my intent. I just used to see the TKD and Lau Gar Kung Fu and Shotokan Karate clubs training in college and couldn't see how anything i was learning could stand up to an onslaught by any of them.
While my confidence in Judo has grown with my ability, i have noticed a broad range of opinions in judoka as to its status as a martial art. Contributors to the discussion board here surprised me with the esteem they generally held for judo. I guess i was braced for some judo bashing (so to speak!) but they seemed for the most part well informed and respectful. At other boards (judo specific boards even) they surprised me with their contempt.
Boxing seems to me to be the martial (thing?) most simalar to judo. Is it classed as a martial art? what makes something a martial art? ritual? respect?
le gach meas,
xxx Ribo.
Boxing and stuff
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turbotort2000
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Sacramento Calfiornia USA
Boxing and stuff
Ribo,
If you are thinking of adding learning boxing in addition to judo you are about to enter a whole new world and the kickboxing style of tkd and others will not be so frighting to you. I have trained with non-competive, amatuer and pro-boxers and have found that they have a lot to offer.
First off everything they do is full contact. There is no semi-contact, non-contact type of boxing. They are very comfortble with exchanging heavy leather. The confidence you get from being in a ring with a another guy and lots of contact will last a long time.
Second, they spend as much time developing their hands as martial artist do developing their whole body. What this means is that have had time to develop hand coordination that rivals most martial artist.
The downside is because they wrap their hands and always train with gloves they don't have the best hand positioning and they don't have any other hand techniques other than the four basic boxing punchs, jab, cross, hook, and uppercut.
I don't know the answer to the question, "is it a martial art?" but I do know it can be a great confidence builder and can compliment what you already know.
If you are thinking of adding learning boxing in addition to judo you are about to enter a whole new world and the kickboxing style of tkd and others will not be so frighting to you. I have trained with non-competive, amatuer and pro-boxers and have found that they have a lot to offer.
First off everything they do is full contact. There is no semi-contact, non-contact type of boxing. They are very comfortble with exchanging heavy leather. The confidence you get from being in a ring with a another guy and lots of contact will last a long time.
Second, they spend as much time developing their hands as martial artist do developing their whole body. What this means is that have had time to develop hand coordination that rivals most martial artist.
The downside is because they wrap their hands and always train with gloves they don't have the best hand positioning and they don't have any other hand techniques other than the four basic boxing punchs, jab, cross, hook, and uppercut.
I don't know the answer to the question, "is it a martial art?" but I do know it can be a great confidence builder and can compliment what you already know.
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Guest
Boxing and stuff
Is boxing a martial art? I think so, I've met many a practioner of the sweet science that I would definetly call artists!It's definetly effective. 
Interesting that so many martial arts folks go take some boxing lessons when they get involved in full contact fighting. Good tools to have in the tool box.
Boxing is as much about making your opponent miss as it is about striking. Definetly teaches you how to move in and around the attacks of an aggressor.
Turbotort you forgot some of my favorites,lead right hand and the overhand right.
A small tool box is not a negative thing. A few strong techniques serve everyone well.
The verdict on 1000 techniques tends to be negative.
With 3 or 4 different techniques the combinations are almost endless.
Just my two cents
Laird
Interesting that so many martial arts folks go take some boxing lessons when they get involved in full contact fighting. Good tools to have in the tool box.
Boxing is as much about making your opponent miss as it is about striking. Definetly teaches you how to move in and around the attacks of an aggressor.
Turbotort you forgot some of my favorites,lead right hand and the overhand right.
A small tool box is not a negative thing. A few strong techniques serve everyone well.
The verdict on 1000 techniques tends to be negative.
With 3 or 4 different techniques the combinations are almost endless.
Just my two cents
Laird
Boxing and stuff
I would say that boxing is definately a martial art. Laird's points pretty much sum it up, but I will add a point or two:
Let's see ....
straight left (jab)
straight right
hook left
cross right
overhand right
uppercut.
They don't block as much, only a little, they have brilliant evasion techniques.
They have no real lunging strikes, no undercut, and their really not supposed to trap (holding and hitting).
They have no spinning strikes, although kick boxing includes these.
Anyway, they recquire unbelievable conditioning, and also timing, speed and power are crucial.
Boxing is a great art, it is a SPORT art, but its roots are certainly martial.
Let's see ....
straight left (jab)
straight right
hook left
cross right
overhand right
uppercut.
They don't block as much, only a little, they have brilliant evasion techniques.
They have no real lunging strikes, no undercut, and their really not supposed to trap (holding and hitting).
They have no spinning strikes, although kick boxing includes these.
Anyway, they recquire unbelievable conditioning, and also timing, speed and power are crucial.
Boxing is a great art, it is a SPORT art, but its roots are certainly martial.
Boxing and stuff
...Yes, I suppose I think of boxing as a martial art too. But what are you basing this on? what makes somthing a martial art?
Does 'martial art' just mean 'somthing that teaches you how to fight'? I dont think so- Most martial artists consider their art to be very spiritual- so much so that many consider the combative elements to be incidental.
Is a 'martial art' somthing that teaches spirituality through combat? That would mean that of 2 students in the same class, one might be studying a martial art, one might be learning how to fight. Besides, although i find judo very enlightening and fulfilling; no one has ever said anything about spirituality. We just go and do judo. No philosophy lectures- but i still see it as a martial art.
Does 'martial art' just mean 'somthing that teaches you how to fight'? I dont think so- Most martial artists consider their art to be very spiritual- so much so that many consider the combative elements to be incidental.
Is a 'martial art' somthing that teaches spirituality through combat? That would mean that of 2 students in the same class, one might be studying a martial art, one might be learning how to fight. Besides, although i find judo very enlightening and fulfilling; no one has ever said anything about spirituality. We just go and do judo. No philosophy lectures- but i still see it as a martial art.
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turbotort2000
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Sacramento Calfiornia USA
Boxing and stuff
Uglyelk
You said, "you forgot some of my favorites,lead right hand and the overhand right." A lead right hand is a southpaw jab and an overhead right is a cross. There is only 4 punches in boxing. But You did point out two things that are so much more important that I didn't post. One you said boxing relies on footwork and dodging and two the analogy about the small toolbox is good.
Funny thing that kickboxing more punches like the upset punch ( a horizontal hook to the body), the downward hook, the backfist and spinning backfist.
Ribo--boxing doesn't specifically teach you how to fight, more how to box. It has skills that pour over into self-defense but self-defense isn't the reason people tend to do it. People box to box. Just like you saying "We just go and do judo."
In my old aikido days some schools were really philosphical but I didn't know until later because the aikido school I went to they just trained and there was very little philosphing going on. When I went to visit other aikido schools those schools would spend about 30 minutes practicing and 90 minutes talking. I guess it made them all really articulate to do that but for the most part they didn't get much accomplished as far as training.
You said, "you forgot some of my favorites,lead right hand and the overhand right." A lead right hand is a southpaw jab and an overhead right is a cross. There is only 4 punches in boxing. But You did point out two things that are so much more important that I didn't post. One you said boxing relies on footwork and dodging and two the analogy about the small toolbox is good.
Funny thing that kickboxing more punches like the upset punch ( a horizontal hook to the body), the downward hook, the backfist and spinning backfist.
Ribo--boxing doesn't specifically teach you how to fight, more how to box. It has skills that pour over into self-defense but self-defense isn't the reason people tend to do it. People box to box. Just like you saying "We just go and do judo."
In my old aikido days some schools were really philosphical but I didn't know until later because the aikido school I went to they just trained and there was very little philosphing going on. When I went to visit other aikido schools those schools would spend about 30 minutes practicing and 90 minutes talking. I guess it made them all really articulate to do that but for the most part they didn't get much accomplished as far as training.
Boxing and stuff
Boxing is a sport. Judo was taken from Ju Justsu and created as a sport hence the DO in juDO. Sports have rules - combat does not. Martial arts train for combat.
This doesn't mean you cannot use Boxing or Judo in a martial art or in combat, but boxing and Judo are sports and this fact contributes to some of the limitations these 'sports' have in combat application.
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Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu
[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited March 22, 2002).]
This doesn't mean you cannot use Boxing or Judo in a martial art or in combat, but boxing and Judo are sports and this fact contributes to some of the limitations these 'sports' have in combat application.
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Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu
[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited March 22, 2002).]
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Tony-San
Boxing and stuff
Why wouldn't it be a martial art? If I where to visualize a couple of Lbs. of Hamburger, and then repeadetly punch someone in the face until their face looks like the hamburger, well... then I would have effectivley expressed myself in accordance with my inspiration and thus Art happens...
Boxing and stuff
these are from merriam-webster
I would say boxing qualifies
Main Entry: mar·tial
Pronunciation: 'mär-sh&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin martialis of Mars, from Mart-,Mars
Date: 14th century
1 : of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior
2 : relating to an army or to military life
3 : experienced in or inclined to war : WARLIKE
- mar·tial·ly /-sh&-lE/ adverb
*********************************************
Main Entry: martial art
Function: noun
Date: 1933
: any of several arts of combat and self-defense (as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sport
- martial artist noun
I would say boxing qualifies
Main Entry: mar·tial
Pronunciation: 'mär-sh&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin martialis of Mars, from Mart-,Mars
Date: 14th century
1 : of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior
2 : relating to an army or to military life
3 : experienced in or inclined to war : WARLIKE
- mar·tial·ly /-sh&-lE/ adverb
*********************************************
Main Entry: martial art
Function: noun
Date: 1933
: any of several arts of combat and self-defense (as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sport
- martial artist noun
Boxing and stuff
I'm not convinced that the distinction between a martial art and a sport is one of rules. Rules promote disciplin and safety.
While it it true that they limit the repetoir of techniques learned (ie a boxer not being taught how to armlock, and a judoka not knowing how to eyegouge) they can raise the quality of the techniques that are learned. (ie no one punches like a boxer- no one throws like a judoka)
I think that the question of whether these rules help or hinder the combat effectivness is unanswerable- some people will be better off specializing in a few powerfull techniqes, some will do better to have all of them to draw from (ninjutsu?)
While it it true that they limit the repetoir of techniques learned (ie a boxer not being taught how to armlock, and a judoka not knowing how to eyegouge) they can raise the quality of the techniques that are learned. (ie no one punches like a boxer- no one throws like a judoka)
I think that the question of whether these rules help or hinder the combat effectivness is unanswerable- some people will be better off specializing in a few powerfull techniqes, some will do better to have all of them to draw from (ninjutsu?)
Boxing and stuff
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
'I do not fear the 10,000 kicks you've practiced one time each, but rather the one kick you've practiced 10,000 times.'
The bottom line to me is: Does the practitioner practice like a "martial artist". Heck, if we rule out boxing and judo because they are sport oriented with few techniques, then a lot of martial artists are not "martial artists"!
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Glenn
[This message has been edited by Glenn (edited March 22, 2002).]
I saw a quote somewhere recently, it may have even been on one of these forums, but it went something like:no one punches like a boxer- no one throws like a judoka
'I do not fear the 10,000 kicks you've practiced one time each, but rather the one kick you've practiced 10,000 times.'
The bottom line to me is: Does the practitioner practice like a "martial artist". Heck, if we rule out boxing and judo because they are sport oriented with few techniques, then a lot of martial artists are not "martial artists"!
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Glenn
[This message has been edited by Glenn (edited March 22, 2002).]
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Guest
Boxing and stuff
Nope two hand strikes in boxing, same as the rest of the martial arts
The left one and the right one. They can be thrown off either foot and at a multitude of angles. Gives one a lifetime's worth of stuff to play with.
Years ago I read about the kiss method. Keep it simple stupid. Then Darren Laur modified it to Keep It Savagely Simple! I think a good rule. A few strong effective techniques will serve us well.
To have a few strong effective kicks, punches, throws, locks and internalize them. This is the mountain I attempt to climb. I'm hardly off the ground but I'm enjoying the journey!
Laird
The left one and the right one. They can be thrown off either foot and at a multitude of angles. Gives one a lifetime's worth of stuff to play with.
Years ago I read about the kiss method. Keep it simple stupid. Then Darren Laur modified it to Keep It Savagely Simple! I think a good rule. A few strong effective techniques will serve us well.
To have a few strong effective kicks, punches, throws, locks and internalize them. This is the mountain I attempt to climb. I'm hardly off the ground but I'm enjoying the journey!
Laird
Boxing and stuff
"I'm not convinced that the distinction between a martial art and a sport is one of rules. Rules promote disciplin and safety.
'm not convinced that the distinction between a martial art and a sport is one of rules. Rules promote disciplin and safety."
I seem to remember a few years back people
wanting to ban boxing as a sport because people were dieing in the ring because of
'just four punches' as for disipline isn't
martial arts all about disipline?
as for sport isn't TKD in the olympics...both a sporting event all about rules and safety with world wide particpants belonging to the martial arts world?
'm not convinced that the distinction between a martial art and a sport is one of rules. Rules promote disciplin and safety."
I seem to remember a few years back people
wanting to ban boxing as a sport because people were dieing in the ring because of
'just four punches' as for disipline isn't
martial arts all about disipline?
as for sport isn't TKD in the olympics...both a sporting event all about rules and safety with world wide particpants belonging to the martial arts world?
Boxing and stuff
I seem to remember a few years back people
wanting to ban boxing as a sport because people were dieing in the ring because of
'just four punches'
Are you suggesting that it would be safer without rules?
(I see your point re: disciplin)
wanting to ban boxing as a sport because people were dieing in the ring because of
'just four punches'
Are you suggesting that it would be safer without rules?
(I see your point re: disciplin)
Boxing and stuff
"Are you suggesting that it would be safer without rules?"
of course not
just pointing out that rules don't always
equal safety.
what about wresling? martial or not? mmmm...
how does fencing qualify as a martial art?
I understand it takes a lot of talent and if
you get cought a sword it could be deadly but its been a long time since there was a sword fight in a bar...
as for a spiritual thing that would be an individuals mindset someone could say they find basket weaving spiritual,calming, and uplifting does that make it a martial art...
do you agree with the definition I posted earlier?
of course not
just pointing out that rules don't always
equal safety.
what about wresling? martial or not? mmmm...
how does fencing qualify as a martial art?
I understand it takes a lot of talent and if
you get cought a sword it could be deadly but its been a long time since there was a sword fight in a bar...
as for a spiritual thing that would be an individuals mindset someone could say they find basket weaving spiritual,calming, and uplifting does that make it a martial art...
do you agree with the definition I posted earlier?
