Hello,
Please allow me to resurrect an old discussion point: The position of the front foot in Sanchin dachi.I have managed to peruse most of the previous posts on this topic (I missed them the first time round).The points raised provided insights into queries which had plagued me for a number of years. As a student of Uechi-Ryu,I, like many others it would seem, found the pigeon-toed sanchin stance rather awkward and unnatural.I was often reminded to "keep that front foot pointing inwards". Over the years I have seen videos of high-ranking exponents of Uechi-Ryu (and Goju-Ryu) assuming a Sanchin stance with the front foot pointing virtually straight forward.I still cannot quite reconcile myself to this apparant inconsistency.In Mark Bishop's excellent read,"Okinawan Karate", Eiichi Miyazato (Goju-Ryu)offers the following explanation:"At first the stance is pigeon-toed (to "shut off" the inside of the legs)and awkward,but after sometime the feet develop amore natural attitude."
Could this also apply to Uechi-Ryu? In my experience within Uechi circles (before reading posts on this forum), straightening the front foot had never been made explicit. Could someone please clarify whether it is acceptable to assume a more "natural" front foot position in the Sanchin stance of our style.
Regards,
KB
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Sanchin foot position
Moderator: Available
Sanchin foot position
Good topic.
After my knee was repaired I found it painful to "pigeon toe" the front foot. The sport theraphist I dealth with indicated that more than a heel width position outwards for the heel from parallel
creates a muscle inbalance and stress on knee. I have followed that recommendation and actually feel that it more natural and seems stronger for me..regardless I have no choice.
After my knee was repaired I found it painful to "pigeon toe" the front foot. The sport theraphist I dealth with indicated that more than a heel width position outwards for the heel from parallel
creates a muscle inbalance and stress on knee. I have followed that recommendation and actually feel that it more natural and seems stronger for me..regardless I have no choice.
Sanchin foot position
KB,
The front foot is turned in to protect the knee, and other various parts of the anatomy, as well as providing better stability in the stance. When the toes are pointed forward you can be easily pushed back, like a rocking chair effect. When you turn the toes in, it helps to prevent this instability by offering a second angle to help disperse your weight. If you were to lay a 2x4 on its side and try to walk on the narrow edge it would probably roll over to the wider surface. However, if you were to nail a second piece of 2x4 on one end perpendicular to the original piece, it would become more stable. Most people’s feet are longer than they are wide, so this, “toeing in,” helps to gain some advantage over a straight toed stance. The rotation of the foot inward should not come from the knee or ankle, but rather the hip, so that the knee and toe turn together. The knee should be in line with the toe. If the toe is turned in further than the knee, then you are getting rotation from the ankle or knee and this can cause problems. If done correctly, there shouldn’t be too much pressure on the knee, unless you have very tight internal hip rotators, which can be remedied with flexibility. Another problem may be that you are trying to turn the foot to far in, I generally like about a thirty-five degree angle, much more seems excessive without any beneficial functionality. For technical purposes, yes, the foot should be turned in, but if you can’t do this then get it as far safely as you can inward and use it how it works best for you.
The front foot is turned in to protect the knee, and other various parts of the anatomy, as well as providing better stability in the stance. When the toes are pointed forward you can be easily pushed back, like a rocking chair effect. When you turn the toes in, it helps to prevent this instability by offering a second angle to help disperse your weight. If you were to lay a 2x4 on its side and try to walk on the narrow edge it would probably roll over to the wider surface. However, if you were to nail a second piece of 2x4 on one end perpendicular to the original piece, it would become more stable. Most people’s feet are longer than they are wide, so this, “toeing in,” helps to gain some advantage over a straight toed stance. The rotation of the foot inward should not come from the knee or ankle, but rather the hip, so that the knee and toe turn together. The knee should be in line with the toe. If the toe is turned in further than the knee, then you are getting rotation from the ankle or knee and this can cause problems. If done correctly, there shouldn’t be too much pressure on the knee, unless you have very tight internal hip rotators, which can be remedied with flexibility. Another problem may be that you are trying to turn the foot to far in, I generally like about a thirty-five degree angle, much more seems excessive without any beneficial functionality. For technical purposes, yes, the foot should be turned in, but if you can’t do this then get it as far safely as you can inward and use it how it works best for you.
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Guest
Sanchin foot position
Forgive me all, I'm going to commit sacrilege. 
I don't invest a lot of time and effort worrying if my feet land in the approved Uechi template.
I don't know if the approved angle is 30, 35, 45, a heel width? Well I'll never get promoted thinking like that. But it's never been about the belt so I guess that’s okay.
I do my kata with the lead foot angled in. Maybe it gives me a stable platform to strike, maybe it doesn't . I believe it develops the muscles on the front of the shin. So if your going to play in a style that promotes blocking with the shin, it might be a good exercise to develop some tissue on that surface.
Now you can flex and develop those muscles by lifting the big toe or lifting the foot with the heel down, but that’s not a stable position and I expect would just lead to broken toes, and folks falling down.
I think the reason sanchin and other kata use this foot position is to develop some muscle in the front of the shin and to develop the pidgen toe habit. So when we raise our shins to block or jam we turn the foot in as if on auto pilot. This foot position flexs the muscles on the shin and turns the toes away from contact.
Someone was really thinking things through when these original kata were developed.
If this pidgen toe posture was so stable I'm sure we hominoids would have evolved walking and running that way.
In a contact scenario I'm not concerned with were the toes of the front foot are pointing. I tend to point them at what I'm striking if I'm coming down the middle they point at the target. If I'm coming from other angles the toes point the direction of the force thru the target.
Laird
[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited March 28, 2002).]
I don't invest a lot of time and effort worrying if my feet land in the approved Uechi template.I don't know if the approved angle is 30, 35, 45, a heel width? Well I'll never get promoted thinking like that.
But it's never been about the belt so I guess that’s okay.I do my kata with the lead foot angled in. Maybe it gives me a stable platform to strike, maybe it doesn't . I believe it develops the muscles on the front of the shin. So if your going to play in a style that promotes blocking with the shin, it might be a good exercise to develop some tissue on that surface.
Now you can flex and develop those muscles by lifting the big toe or lifting the foot with the heel down, but that’s not a stable position and I expect would just lead to broken toes, and folks falling down.
I think the reason sanchin and other kata use this foot position is to develop some muscle in the front of the shin and to develop the pidgen toe habit. So when we raise our shins to block or jam we turn the foot in as if on auto pilot. This foot position flexs the muscles on the shin and turns the toes away from contact.
Someone was really thinking things through when these original kata were developed.
If this pidgen toe posture was so stable I'm sure we hominoids would have evolved walking and running that way.
In a contact scenario I'm not concerned with were the toes of the front foot are pointing. I tend to point them at what I'm striking if I'm coming down the middle they point at the target. If I'm coming from other angles the toes point the direction of the force thru the target.
Laird
[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited March 28, 2002).]
Sanchin foot position
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If this pidgen toe posture was so stable I'm sure we hominoids would have evolved
walking and running that way.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would want you on my side in a debate
I am stumped.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> In a contact scenario I'm not concerned with were the toes of the front foot are
pointing.
Laird
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think the toe position or amount of angle were simply guidelines so as to give newer students a basic start point in understanding "rooting". Any stylist that uses "rooting" will evolve the stance to create the best base to allow him to "root". I bet it happens without having to look at the position of the feet.
My take on it.
walking and running that way.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would want you on my side in a debate
I am stumped. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> In a contact scenario I'm not concerned with were the toes of the front foot are
pointing.
Laird
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think the toe position or amount of angle were simply guidelines so as to give newer students a basic start point in understanding "rooting". Any stylist that uses "rooting" will evolve the stance to create the best base to allow him to "root". I bet it happens without having to look at the position of the feet.
My take on it.
Sanchin foot position
Hello,
Thanks for some helpful comments. I do take Uglyelk's point about not worrying if the feet "land in the approved Uechi template". However, since the Sanchin stance is almost exclusively used in Uechi-Ryu, is so fundamental to the style, it's nice to be able to "get it right".
Regards,
KB
------------------
Thanks for some helpful comments. I do take Uglyelk's point about not worrying if the feet "land in the approved Uechi template". However, since the Sanchin stance is almost exclusively used in Uechi-Ryu, is so fundamental to the style, it's nice to be able to "get it right".
Regards,
KB
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Sanchin foot position
"If this pidgen toe posture was so stable I'm sure we hominoids would have evolved walking and running that way."
If we had evolved as trees, yes, but you don't want to be stable when you walk or run, you want to be moving.
If we had evolved as trees, yes, but you don't want to be stable when you walk or run, you want to be moving.
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Allen M.
Sanchin foot position
The forward foot bent in position is beautiful for fighting and sparring.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Sanchin foot position
Is the front foot inward at 40-degrees a component of Sanchin stance or not; from a teacher's point of view what would you tell your students?
If it's really not important why is it included as an actual element of the stance and the style?
After all Sanchin is our foundation Kata, is Sanchin-dachi not also our foundation stance?
I don't think "pidgeon-toed" describes the stance. This term means a PeeWee Herman-type posture where straight on, both feet are toed inward. Sanchin-dachi sure isn't that, and when you stretch the stance a bit into "fighting" form (as opposed to test-form) it starts to look very aggressive and somewhat spring-like.
In fact, if you only lift your rear heel you have the basic Jeet Kune Do stance.
(Input from JKD people, anyone?)
If you eliminate this characteristic from the stance, then what exactly is the stance you are now in?
I have seen numerous examples of Non-chin stance even in the Dan-test pictures on this site, and have frequently wondered if this is now overlooked or no longer required.
If it's really not important why is it included as an actual element of the stance and the style?
After all Sanchin is our foundation Kata, is Sanchin-dachi not also our foundation stance?
I don't think "pidgeon-toed" describes the stance. This term means a PeeWee Herman-type posture where straight on, both feet are toed inward. Sanchin-dachi sure isn't that, and when you stretch the stance a bit into "fighting" form (as opposed to test-form) it starts to look very aggressive and somewhat spring-like.
In fact, if you only lift your rear heel you have the basic Jeet Kune Do stance.
(Input from JKD people, anyone?)
If you eliminate this characteristic from the stance, then what exactly is the stance you are now in?
I have seen numerous examples of Non-chin stance even in the Dan-test pictures on this site, and have frequently wondered if this is now overlooked or no longer required.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Sanchin foot position
Folks
I'll add a few points for clarification.
First, the degree of toe-in (I prefer to think of it as heel out) is variable, but most people here don't have "the standard" right. I have heard it described two different ways. The first way is to shift the front heel out by the width of the foot. This is quite practical, as one can easily visualize it in the classroom. The second is pictured (believe it or not) in Master Uechi's big Kihon (the big blue book) that very few people own. It has the angle of the outside of the front foot as ONLY 30 degrees in. In my book, that's plenty. To do more creates a nonfunctional posture.
The truth is that one can angle the heels in or out in one of a number of postures, including the sanchin stance, the "natural" stance, and the horse stance. The extremes of heels in or out have explicit names in the Okinawan karate tradition. For the stance in question, heels out (toes in) is called sanchin dachi, whereas a more relaxed heels in is called renoji dachi. The latter is used quite a bit in aikido and kobudo. For the "natural" stance, heels out is heiko dachi, and the more relaxed heels in is called hachiji dachi. For the horse stance, the tight heels out is kiba dachi, whereas the more relaxed heels in is called shiko dachi. Clearly god is not going to strike lightning down upon you if you elect to be at some point in-between the two hip rotation (NOT foot rotation) extremes.
Why would one elect to turn the heels out (toes in) in any of these three stances? It's partly a matter of how much firmness one wants in the stance. If you want things to be more loose, then one just lets the feet fall where they do naturally, which is toes out (heels in a bit).
Turning heels out (internal rotation of the hip), grabbing the floor, and then trying to turn them in again allows one a kind of bug-on-glass grip. This is quite useful if you need to be firm and stick. It's quite important if you want to do a hip throw, as an example. There's also another effect that most people miss.
Try snapping your fingers without first touching middle finger to thumb. It isn't possible to make any noise, is it? One must first touch index finger to thumb, build up tension, and then suddenly release it. It's particularly helpful for folks that don't have a lot of fast twitch muscle. I call it "cocking the trigger." The physics principle is the same, except a spring (and Hook's law) is involved in a gun. Now, try throwing a strong front kick off the front leg with a renoji dachi (heels in, or toes out). One can only use leg power, and the feeling isn't very satisfying for some of us. But if we first turn the heels out (toes in), then we can "cock the trigger" with hip rotation. One can then release that potential energy when kicking off that front leg. It's the only way to get a decent amount of power off that front leg, in my opinion. And the Uechi system specializes in that front leg kick.
Many important points have already been made here:
1) None of this works right if you don't first tuck the pelvis under.
2) One has to get used to this stance.
3) One should rotate at the hips and not at the knees or ankle. The knees should point in the direction of the toes. That way there isn't any unnatural stress on the knee.
4) The amount you rotate in and out at the hip isn't as important as understanding and utilizing this degree of freedom of motion in your martial arts.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited March 29, 2002).]
I'll add a few points for clarification.
First, the degree of toe-in (I prefer to think of it as heel out) is variable, but most people here don't have "the standard" right. I have heard it described two different ways. The first way is to shift the front heel out by the width of the foot. This is quite practical, as one can easily visualize it in the classroom. The second is pictured (believe it or not) in Master Uechi's big Kihon (the big blue book) that very few people own. It has the angle of the outside of the front foot as ONLY 30 degrees in. In my book, that's plenty. To do more creates a nonfunctional posture.
The truth is that one can angle the heels in or out in one of a number of postures, including the sanchin stance, the "natural" stance, and the horse stance. The extremes of heels in or out have explicit names in the Okinawan karate tradition. For the stance in question, heels out (toes in) is called sanchin dachi, whereas a more relaxed heels in is called renoji dachi. The latter is used quite a bit in aikido and kobudo. For the "natural" stance, heels out is heiko dachi, and the more relaxed heels in is called hachiji dachi. For the horse stance, the tight heels out is kiba dachi, whereas the more relaxed heels in is called shiko dachi. Clearly god is not going to strike lightning down upon you if you elect to be at some point in-between the two hip rotation (NOT foot rotation) extremes.
Why would one elect to turn the heels out (toes in) in any of these three stances? It's partly a matter of how much firmness one wants in the stance. If you want things to be more loose, then one just lets the feet fall where they do naturally, which is toes out (heels in a bit).
Turning heels out (internal rotation of the hip), grabbing the floor, and then trying to turn them in again allows one a kind of bug-on-glass grip. This is quite useful if you need to be firm and stick. It's quite important if you want to do a hip throw, as an example. There's also another effect that most people miss.
Try snapping your fingers without first touching middle finger to thumb. It isn't possible to make any noise, is it? One must first touch index finger to thumb, build up tension, and then suddenly release it. It's particularly helpful for folks that don't have a lot of fast twitch muscle. I call it "cocking the trigger." The physics principle is the same, except a spring (and Hook's law) is involved in a gun. Now, try throwing a strong front kick off the front leg with a renoji dachi (heels in, or toes out). One can only use leg power, and the feeling isn't very satisfying for some of us. But if we first turn the heels out (toes in), then we can "cock the trigger" with hip rotation. One can then release that potential energy when kicking off that front leg. It's the only way to get a decent amount of power off that front leg, in my opinion. And the Uechi system specializes in that front leg kick.
Many important points have already been made here:
1) None of this works right if you don't first tuck the pelvis under.
2) One has to get used to this stance.
3) One should rotate at the hips and not at the knees or ankle. The knees should point in the direction of the toes. That way there isn't any unnatural stress on the knee.
4) The amount you rotate in and out at the hip isn't as important as understanding and utilizing this degree of freedom of motion in your martial arts.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited March 29, 2002).]
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Guest
Sanchin foot position
Bill Sensei, excellent post , learned lots!
I agree with 2 green everyone fights out of nonchin.(Like that by the way)
Take a look at the Kumite in the black belt test clip on this site. Take a look at the clip of Bobby and Gary fighting it out in the finals. Take a look the promo clip for "Sparring the Uechi Way". I do not see anyone delivering any techniques from a sanchin stance.
I have never have witnessed Sanchin sparring.
Could it be the stance is about rooting and power deliver. Could it be this stance is for training and not fighting.
2 Green mentions the slightly elongated stance. Sensei Maloney use to talk about sanchin stance and fighting stance.(Training stance and fighting stance).
He is a pretty good fighter and he claimed sanchin was the root of power in Uechi but also not a good tactical position to assume in a fight.
Take a look at the video clips, extremely long stances ,front foot mostly points at the target. Check out the rear foot. In may cases it tees 90 degrees to root the fighter as he delivers an attack or stands his ground and defends.
We like to call our selves a frontal fighting system. Yet look at all the fighting going on were the combatants are turned side on to each other.Smaller the target to strike folks. Know how do we reconcile one shoulder forward with a sanchin position?
These all are excellent matches by very talented Uechika.But no one is fighting out of a sanchin stance are they?
Don't get me wrong folks Uechi is sanchin, just trying to point out that we don't fight out of this position,we just train in it and draw strenght from it.
Laird
[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited March 29, 2002).]
I agree with 2 green everyone fights out of nonchin.(Like that by the way)
Take a look at the Kumite in the black belt test clip on this site. Take a look at the clip of Bobby and Gary fighting it out in the finals. Take a look the promo clip for "Sparring the Uechi Way". I do not see anyone delivering any techniques from a sanchin stance.
I have never have witnessed Sanchin sparring.
Could it be the stance is about rooting and power deliver. Could it be this stance is for training and not fighting.
2 Green mentions the slightly elongated stance. Sensei Maloney use to talk about sanchin stance and fighting stance.(Training stance and fighting stance).
He is a pretty good fighter and he claimed sanchin was the root of power in Uechi but also not a good tactical position to assume in a fight.
Take a look at the video clips, extremely long stances ,front foot mostly points at the target. Check out the rear foot. In may cases it tees 90 degrees to root the fighter as he delivers an attack or stands his ground and defends.
We like to call our selves a frontal fighting system. Yet look at all the fighting going on were the combatants are turned side on to each other.Smaller the target to strike folks. Know how do we reconcile one shoulder forward with a sanchin position?
These all are excellent matches by very talented Uechika.But no one is fighting out of a sanchin stance are they?
Don't get me wrong folks Uechi is sanchin, just trying to point out that we don't fight out of this position,we just train in it and draw strenght from it.
Laird
[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited March 29, 2002).]
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Allen M.
Sanchin foot position
Laird,
Are you coming down for the summer camp?
Sorry I lost your email address when I pulled the plug on the cable modem.
Allen
------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Are you coming down for the summer camp?
Sorry I lost your email address when I pulled the plug on the cable modem.
Allen
------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
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Tony-San
Sanchin foot position
Actually... what it does, is it enables you to throw your hip on your lead foot almost to the center, giving you a great deal of power in lateral techniques (e.g. hook punch, check out David Moy's!). The foot, like everything else in the kata is *supposed* to be dynamic in that it should *move*. If anyone believes that turning the foot in actually makes their stance stronger, I would have to disagree. your stance should be appropriate to the technqiue you are delivering or defending against and it should change constantly. The KATA TEACHES YOU THIS! You cannot take the transitions in your kata for granted, they are as much a part of the kata as the *stations* in the kata.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Sanchin foot position
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
We have something I do in my dojo called "The Barroom Brawl." Basically it's sparring with a bunch of people in the room, with every (wo)man for him/herself. I tell my people NOT to fight fair. Everyone - even the best in the class - gets ganged up on and clobbered sooner or later. But some seem to do better than others for stretches of time. And...you should see what kinds of stances and movements and postures they naturally take up. I don't do much in the way of telling them how they should fight, other than yelling at them when they pair off. I tell them to walk around like predators, and assume they are prey. It's amazing what happens. No deep stances. No posturing and bouncing and feints. No time, for Christ's sake! Lots of shallow stances and pivot turns and tenshin steps and open hands up front. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>2 Green mentions the slightly elongated stance. Sensei Maloney use to talk about sanchin stance and fighting stance.(Training stance and fighting stance).
He is a pretty good fighter and he claimed sanchin was the root of power in Uechi but also not a good tactical position to assume in a fight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> First of all, Jimmy did a lot of tournament fighting. Take a look at young Jimmy Malone and Jack Summers demonstrating contemporary (1960s contemporary) sparring techniques and stances in George's Uechiryu Karatedo book. And then Jimmy was police officer, and - ultimately - warrior chief of his Nation. In each venue, he was like the tea in the teacup. In each venue, he started like all of us started - ignorant but with a desire to learn and a need to express something within. Each required that he adjust his core knowledge and his fighting spirit to what he was doing. Each required that he make mistakes and learn from them and constantly adjust from those experiences.
And frankly people like Jimmy Malone and Art Rabesa were fighters before they walked into the dojo. All sanchin did was teach them a little bit of discipline. But to a large extent, they were already whom they were long before the first sanchin thrust. Application of the level of U.S. understanding of Uechi ryu in the 1960s to the likes of Jimmy and Art is like adorning a Porche chassis and engine with a Chevy body.
What is sanchin anyhow? Perhaps that's a better question. Perhaps they already had the substance and didn't need so much of the form.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited March 29, 2002).]
Watch Bobby and Gary. Then watch most of the other WKA fighters. They all use a lot of the same techniques. They do things that work well in that arena.Take a look at the Kumite in the black belt test clip on this site. Take a look at the clip of Bobby and Gary fighting it out in the finals. Take a look the promo clip for "Sparring the Uechi Way". I do not see anyone delivering any techniques from a sanchin stance.
We have something I do in my dojo called "The Barroom Brawl." Basically it's sparring with a bunch of people in the room, with every (wo)man for him/herself. I tell my people NOT to fight fair. Everyone - even the best in the class - gets ganged up on and clobbered sooner or later. But some seem to do better than others for stretches of time. And...you should see what kinds of stances and movements and postures they naturally take up. I don't do much in the way of telling them how they should fight, other than yelling at them when they pair off. I tell them to walk around like predators, and assume they are prey. It's amazing what happens. No deep stances. No posturing and bouncing and feints. No time, for Christ's sake! Lots of shallow stances and pivot turns and tenshin steps and open hands up front. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>2 Green mentions the slightly elongated stance. Sensei Maloney use to talk about sanchin stance and fighting stance.(Training stance and fighting stance).
He is a pretty good fighter and he claimed sanchin was the root of power in Uechi but also not a good tactical position to assume in a fight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> First of all, Jimmy did a lot of tournament fighting. Take a look at young Jimmy Malone and Jack Summers demonstrating contemporary (1960s contemporary) sparring techniques and stances in George's Uechiryu Karatedo book. And then Jimmy was police officer, and - ultimately - warrior chief of his Nation. In each venue, he was like the tea in the teacup. In each venue, he started like all of us started - ignorant but with a desire to learn and a need to express something within. Each required that he adjust his core knowledge and his fighting spirit to what he was doing. Each required that he make mistakes and learn from them and constantly adjust from those experiences.
And frankly people like Jimmy Malone and Art Rabesa were fighters before they walked into the dojo. All sanchin did was teach them a little bit of discipline. But to a large extent, they were already whom they were long before the first sanchin thrust. Application of the level of U.S. understanding of Uechi ryu in the 1960s to the likes of Jimmy and Art is like adorning a Porche chassis and engine with a Chevy body.
What is sanchin anyhow? Perhaps that's a better question. Perhaps they already had the substance and didn't need so much of the form.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited March 29, 2002).]
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Guest
Sanchin foot position
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Allen M.:
Laird,
Are you coming down for the summer camp?
---------------------------------------------
Unfortunately not in the budget. Buying two more working trucks this spring. As we discussed those sales men see me coming every time.I am hoping to make it 2003.
--------------------------------------------
Sorry I lost your email address when I pulled the plug on the cable modem.
lelliot@telusplanet.net
Laird
[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited March 30, 2002).]
Laird,
Are you coming down for the summer camp?
---------------------------------------------
Unfortunately not in the budget. Buying two more working trucks this spring. As we discussed those sales men see me coming every time.I am hoping to make it 2003.
--------------------------------------------
Sorry I lost your email address when I pulled the plug on the cable modem.
lelliot@telusplanet.net
Laird
[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited March 30, 2002).]
