I am about to write a very difficult post because this will go directly in contradiction to something George Sensei is very excited about. I have the greatest respect for George Sensei, and while this is a topic that I believe may be very personal to him, my comments are not meant as a personal attack. However, my comments will be very strong and leave no doubt as to my opinion. They will also fly in the face of a position held by George Sensei.
There has been a great deal of excitement lately about the sport aspect of karate and the growing importance of it for the IUKF Dan test.
I believe any practitioner of karate is free to choose whatever focus they wish.
There is also no doubt that a well fought sport karate match can be exciting and formidable. This was made clear to me at the 1999 camp by the demonstration sparring held that year.
In addition, a sport orientation can help a school achieve commercial success, therefore if your school is your livelihood it is something you must consider.
I don't make my living from my school. I have have chosen to have the school small and concentrate of my discovery of Uechi Ryu. I have had a wild ride and often it strayed from what many would say was Uechi, but I think that all that I learned on that trip brought me back to where I can truly apply and appreciate Uechi Ryu and the unique style of Karate it is (I do not use the term unique in that there are no styles like it out there in martial art land, but they aren't karate).
So here is my problem:
Uechi Ryu has always been described as an in-close fighting style. Uechi Ryu uses a stance and arm position that is really useful in close but not for long distance.
Generic sport karate is a long distance practise that ceases the moment you close. Generic sport karate is practised the same no mater what style you do. Generic sport karate forces the individual to use techniques that are not the heart and sole of Uechi Ryu.
So hey, what is my problem, I simply do not have to focus on sport karate.
Not so. Sparring has become over the years more and more important in the Dan test and now an even greater push is being made that this generic sport karate be demonstrated for Black Belt.
Have things changed? Simply read page 481 of George Sensei's UECHI RYU KARATE DO where the "Original" Dan test was set up:
Sanchin: Form 10% Tightness 10% Spirit 5% -- 25%
Seisan Form 5% Movement 5% Spirit 5% -- 15%
Seirui: Form 5% Movement 5% Spirit 5% -- 15%
Choice of forms: 5%
Arranged tricks: 5% (tricks was the old term used for a demonstration of a self defence technique)
Pounding Arms: 5%
Exercises: 5%
Mental testing: 5%
Getting out of holds: 5%
Explanation of Seisan: 10%
Sparring: 5%
Clearly the original focus was on kata (60%), self defence (10%) and the understanding of using Kata for self defence (10%) = 80% of the test.
Now a major percentage is on a sport aspect that is not a demonstration of Uechi Ryu.
As much as a good hard sport karate match is enjoyable and formidable to watch I have not seen Uechi Ryu. In fact, you could not tell which practitioner is which style.
I am sorry but I truly dislike generic sport karate as a practice of Uechi Ryu.
I will go further and say that it should be describe as a separate style: Sport Karate.
I have always disliked sparring being as important on the Dan test as it is. I was always disappointed that the Dan test lost the original focus of kata and self defense.
Do karate for sport if you wish but know what it is you are practising, and please do not expect me to take it back to my dojo. I simply do not want it.
I know there will be cries that no one took part in the old Uechi tournaments, but sorry I don't care about tournaments. I don't care about sparring. If you do then, as I said, GO FOR IT. I wish you all the best. But understand you are practising the style of "Sport Karate".
I just wish that influence was not part of what is expected of my students to achieve a rank they deserve.
Peace,
Rick
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
Moderator: Available
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
Mr. Wilson,
I have to agree with your post. Why spend so much time training style specific technique to end up fighting like a generic kick-boxer? If you don’t mind, I have a couple of questions I would like to ask you to clarify my understanding of the role you feel sparring should play in traditional training.
“I don't care about sparring. If you do then, as I said, GO FOR IT. I wish you all the best.”
Are you saying that sparring shouldn’t be practiced, or sport sparring shouldn’t be practiced at all?
“I just wish that influence was not part of what is expected of my students to achieve a rank they deserve.”
Do you feel that dan tests shouldn’t require the student to spar at all?
While I think you should have to free fight of some kind for a dan test, I agree with you in that it should not be the main emphasis for promotion or stray from the Uechi form. One thing I really don’t like seeing is the use of pads during a dan test, as your conditioning is being tested as well and should be up to par
[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited April 01, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited April 01, 2002).]
I have to agree with your post. Why spend so much time training style specific technique to end up fighting like a generic kick-boxer? If you don’t mind, I have a couple of questions I would like to ask you to clarify my understanding of the role you feel sparring should play in traditional training.
“I don't care about sparring. If you do then, as I said, GO FOR IT. I wish you all the best.”
Are you saying that sparring shouldn’t be practiced, or sport sparring shouldn’t be practiced at all?
“I just wish that influence was not part of what is expected of my students to achieve a rank they deserve.”
Do you feel that dan tests shouldn’t require the student to spar at all?
While I think you should have to free fight of some kind for a dan test, I agree with you in that it should not be the main emphasis for promotion or stray from the Uechi form. One thing I really don’t like seeing is the use of pads during a dan test, as your conditioning is being tested as well and should be up to par
[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited April 01, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited April 01, 2002).]
-
gmattson
- Site Admin
- Posts: 6073
- Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Lake Mary, Florida
- Contact:
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
Rick:
I'll reserve any comments until after more people reply to your post. I'm jumping in now to let you know the most important thing a student should get from his Uechi-ryu training is the ability to think and act in an independent manner. This includes being able to express yourself, even when what you have to say may appear at odds with the establishment.
------------------
GEM
I'll reserve any comments until after more people reply to your post. I'm jumping in now to let you know the most important thing a student should get from his Uechi-ryu training is the ability to think and act in an independent manner. This includes being able to express yourself, even when what you have to say may appear at odds with the establishment.
------------------
GEM
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
And we should define "Establishment"__ What is the establishment in IUKF?
IUKF members are told "they are" the establishment as a group, and should not feel they are to be influenced by GEM sensei as the president of IUKF or by the top seniors in the group.
We want to get away from the thinking or perception that this is another "Mattson thing" as some people have mumbled.
GEM sensei or other Seniors may have their ideas,good or bad, but this group is a democracy and we will do, and say what we want individually, and possibly what the group wants, if we agree with it, without undue influence from the "establishment"__
Please keep that in mind.
This must be understood.
There is much rumbling in the shadows about this__ but please step out and be heard.
I, for one, agree that a promotional should encompass a true test of defensive capabilities, which sparring is not, at least not point sparring. But how to do it safely and with the agreement of all members?
------------------
Van Canna
This is important to internalize.This includes being able to express yourself, even when what you have to say may appear at odds with the establishment.
And we should define "Establishment"__ What is the establishment in IUKF?
IUKF members are told "they are" the establishment as a group, and should not feel they are to be influenced by GEM sensei as the president of IUKF or by the top seniors in the group.
We want to get away from the thinking or perception that this is another "Mattson thing" as some people have mumbled.
GEM sensei or other Seniors may have their ideas,good or bad, but this group is a democracy and we will do, and say what we want individually, and possibly what the group wants, if we agree with it, without undue influence from the "establishment"__
Please keep that in mind.
This must be understood.
There is much rumbling in the shadows about this__ but please step out and be heard.
I, for one, agree that a promotional should encompass a true test of defensive capabilities, which sparring is not, at least not point sparring. But how to do it safely and with the agreement of all members?
------------------
Van Canna
-
Rick Wilson
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
George Sensei and Van Sensei:
Thank you for your comments.
I want to make it clear that I was not concerned over speaking my opinion on these forums or in "challenging" the establishment. My concern that made the post difficult was my personal respect for George Sensei and that I hoped the post would not be seen as an attack on him. Passionate positions are near and dear to each of us and often a comment on them can be seen as a comment on ourselves rather than the position (perceived by ourselves or often by others). I wanted to make my intent clear. I wanted to take care in how I posted my opinion.
Uechij:
Please call me Rick.
In response to your questions:
1) Are you saying that sparring shouldn't be practised, or sport sparring shouldn't be practised at all?
Let me make it clear that where ever anyone's training takes them is fine by me but in my school no we do not spar.
Well, I do have a couple of friends who run now tournaments and because I always try to support my friends activities and the kids in my school like to take part so we do go. It was one a year but now it is two and this may force me to make a decision. I have the kids do some sparring in class maybe a month before the tournament How does a school that does not spar do -- very well. I tell them to incorporate what I teach but as a game of tag. While what I teach can be applied to the sparring ring, I do not do it in class as a regular part of training because I do not want what they train to be a game of tag. (You will do under stress what you train in class.)
Please understand that my reference to the game of tag is not meant as a put down to sport sparring but how I distinguish the different approach required from self defense to sport sparring. It helps them understand the limitation of the weapons used and types of attacks allowed. It also helps them to understand why you strike and withdraw without follow up.
So what do I do if we don't spar? We work on many intensity drills, close quarter drills, Night of the Living Dead, lots of movement, lots of conditioning, and we will be purchasing one of Tony Blauer's HIGH GEAR suits in May. All these train a manner of self defense that is most often drilled through impromptu usage.
2) Do you feel that dan tests shouldn't require the student to spar at all?
I wouldn't care if the percentage and importance was back at the old 5%. Let me ask what does it tell you of someone understanding of Uechi Ryu?
As to the Dan Test:
Where is the demonstration of self defense?
Where is the test of the student's understanding of bunkai as opposed to a practised drill where someone else figured out something to do with the kata? Do they know what those moves in the Kata can do?
Why are not more of the kata performed? I liked the "choice" of kata on the original test only I would have it the Dan Test Board's choice (may be it was the Board's choice?).
I really liked the original Dan test set up.
You stated: "One thing I really don’t like seeing is the use of pads during a dan test, "
I am big on conditioning but I would rather see people gear up fully and go at it (like it seems like it was done early on in Okinawa). I have often seen people "walk" through unlanded strikes to the face only to "score" to the body when it was really all over. However, even then the tools employed in sparring are not the weapons of Uechi Ryu. Add to that the fact that it is not good to take too many shots to the head and well there in lies the rub.
Rick
Thank you for your comments.
I want to make it clear that I was not concerned over speaking my opinion on these forums or in "challenging" the establishment. My concern that made the post difficult was my personal respect for George Sensei and that I hoped the post would not be seen as an attack on him. Passionate positions are near and dear to each of us and often a comment on them can be seen as a comment on ourselves rather than the position (perceived by ourselves or often by others). I wanted to make my intent clear. I wanted to take care in how I posted my opinion.
Uechij:
Please call me Rick.
In response to your questions:
1) Are you saying that sparring shouldn't be practised, or sport sparring shouldn't be practised at all?
Let me make it clear that where ever anyone's training takes them is fine by me but in my school no we do not spar.
Well, I do have a couple of friends who run now tournaments and because I always try to support my friends activities and the kids in my school like to take part so we do go. It was one a year but now it is two and this may force me to make a decision. I have the kids do some sparring in class maybe a month before the tournament How does a school that does not spar do -- very well. I tell them to incorporate what I teach but as a game of tag. While what I teach can be applied to the sparring ring, I do not do it in class as a regular part of training because I do not want what they train to be a game of tag. (You will do under stress what you train in class.)
Please understand that my reference to the game of tag is not meant as a put down to sport sparring but how I distinguish the different approach required from self defense to sport sparring. It helps them understand the limitation of the weapons used and types of attacks allowed. It also helps them to understand why you strike and withdraw without follow up.
So what do I do if we don't spar? We work on many intensity drills, close quarter drills, Night of the Living Dead, lots of movement, lots of conditioning, and we will be purchasing one of Tony Blauer's HIGH GEAR suits in May. All these train a manner of self defense that is most often drilled through impromptu usage.
2) Do you feel that dan tests shouldn't require the student to spar at all?
I wouldn't care if the percentage and importance was back at the old 5%. Let me ask what does it tell you of someone understanding of Uechi Ryu?
As to the Dan Test:
Where is the demonstration of self defense?
Where is the test of the student's understanding of bunkai as opposed to a practised drill where someone else figured out something to do with the kata? Do they know what those moves in the Kata can do?
Why are not more of the kata performed? I liked the "choice" of kata on the original test only I would have it the Dan Test Board's choice (may be it was the Board's choice?).
I really liked the original Dan test set up.
You stated: "One thing I really don’t like seeing is the use of pads during a dan test, "
I am big on conditioning but I would rather see people gear up fully and go at it (like it seems like it was done early on in Okinawa). I have often seen people "walk" through unlanded strikes to the face only to "score" to the body when it was really all over. However, even then the tools employed in sparring are not the weapons of Uechi Ryu. Add to that the fact that it is not good to take too many shots to the head and well there in lies the rub.
Rick
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
Congratulations to Rick Wilson for initiating such a thought-provoking discussion. I find it sad that with the emergence of sport karate techniques, the uniqueness of the various styles is no longer apparant. Indeed, generic sport karate has become a "style" in its own right. I find it regrettable that there is not a stronger link between techniques used in kata and kumite. Why invest so much time and effort in perfecting kata, only to have to assimilate a new set of techniques in order to be able to spar? Is it not possible to devise a form of sparring which adequately reflects the characteristics of Uechi-Ryu? Other styles have done so, Kyokushinkai and Shorinji-Ryu, to nane but two.
Regards,
KB
Regards,
KB
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
This is a very thought-provoking discussion, and one that comes up from time to time. The fact that it KEEPS coming up again and again says something. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>2) Do you feel that dan tests shouldn't require the student to spar at all?
I wouldn't care if the percentage and importance was back at the old 5%. Let me ask what does it tell you of someone understanding of Uechi Ryu?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The issue is only partially what sparring tells you about Uechi Ryu. Without some freeform format, we are missing a vital element in self defense. You cannot defend yourself if you aren't able to produce spontaneous combinations against an uncooperative partner in a stressful environment. I can't count how many folks I've had who could do great kata and prearranged work, but couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag because they weren't able to ad lib their waza, so to write.
You need SOME kind of jiyu format. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Nice concept but... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Consider that SOME modifications and specializations are necessary if you are going to maximize your potential in any venue such as WKA fighting. But it doesn't mean we must lose our soul in the process.
Consider also that sometimes good sparrers/fighters are employing concepts of sanchin, and those of us who don't truly understand the kata are blind to it.
********
Back at UVa, I always had a two part evaluation of sparring for a rank promotion. The first half of the test was the performance on an intramural, multi-style, team-oriented sparring tournament done in a point format. The second was a continuous motion format done on another day. It worked pretty well for us, and produced candidates that could perform well on most sparring formats that New England would dream up on any one day.
A third still could be suit up a la Blauer style (assuming this can be afforded), and have at it in a multi-attacker format. Another still would consider a format on mats where throws are allowed and even encouraged. We could go on and on. The point is that perhaps we should consider other evaluations in the freeform arena.
I will say though that I think performance in a GOOD freeform arena is every bit as important as sanchin and the designated kata. If you could have seen my early results of teaching karate to someone like a gymnast, you would understand why I feel that way.
Keep up the questions, Rick. I believe you are on to something very important.
- Bill
I wouldn't care if the percentage and importance was back at the old 5%. Let me ask what does it tell you of someone understanding of Uechi Ryu?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The issue is only partially what sparring tells you about Uechi Ryu. Without some freeform format, we are missing a vital element in self defense. You cannot defend yourself if you aren't able to produce spontaneous combinations against an uncooperative partner in a stressful environment. I can't count how many folks I've had who could do great kata and prearranged work, but couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag because they weren't able to ad lib their waza, so to write.
You need SOME kind of jiyu format. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
There's the rub. We are all concerned with safety and freedom from litigation. There are many things we'd love to do that would produce a good dan. In the words of Art Rabesa - said with tongue firmly in cheek - just throw all the candidates in a room, and the one that walks out standing gets the belt.I, for one, agree that a promotional should encompass a true test of defensive capabilities, which sparring is not, at least not point sparring. But how to do it safely and with the agreement of all members?
Nice concept but... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quoteWell stated. And I believe we have only ourselves to blame. We as teachers can do better.Indeed, generic sport karate has become a "style" in its own right. I find it regrettable that there is not a stronger link between techniques used in kata and kumite...
Consider that SOME modifications and specializations are necessary if you are going to maximize your potential in any venue such as WKA fighting. But it doesn't mean we must lose our soul in the process.
Consider also that sometimes good sparrers/fighters are employing concepts of sanchin, and those of us who don't truly understand the kata are blind to it.
********
Back at UVa, I always had a two part evaluation of sparring for a rank promotion. The first half of the test was the performance on an intramural, multi-style, team-oriented sparring tournament done in a point format. The second was a continuous motion format done on another day. It worked pretty well for us, and produced candidates that could perform well on most sparring formats that New England would dream up on any one day.
A third still could be suit up a la Blauer style (assuming this can be afforded), and have at it in a multi-attacker format. Another still would consider a format on mats where throws are allowed and even encouraged. We could go on and on. The point is that perhaps we should consider other evaluations in the freeform arena.
I will say though that I think performance in a GOOD freeform arena is every bit as important as sanchin and the designated kata. If you could have seen my early results of teaching karate to someone like a gymnast, you would understand why I feel that way.
Keep up the questions, Rick. I believe you are on to something very important.
- Bill
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
Rick,
In response to:
"Let me ask what does it tell you of someone understanding of Uechi Ryu?"
Sparring alone is a terrible indicator of ones understanding of their art. However, it is only one aspect that makes up the whole. You cannot distinguish a song from one musical note. When all the notes are played together you get to hear how the song sounds. On the other hand, remove one of these notes and the song isn't quite the same.
"The issue is only partially what sparring tells you about Uechi Ryu. Without some freeform format, we are missing a vital element in self defense. You cannot defend yourself if you aren't able to produce spontaneous combinations against an uncooperative partner in a stressful environment. I can't count how many folks I've had who could do great kata and prearranged work, but couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag because they weren't able to ad lib their waza, so to write.
You need SOME kind of jiyu format."
I think Mr. Glasheen hits the nail on the head with these words. I understand what your saying about sport karate, but IMO their must be some kind of a measure for the canidates improvision skills.
In response to:
"Let me ask what does it tell you of someone understanding of Uechi Ryu?"
Sparring alone is a terrible indicator of ones understanding of their art. However, it is only one aspect that makes up the whole. You cannot distinguish a song from one musical note. When all the notes are played together you get to hear how the song sounds. On the other hand, remove one of these notes and the song isn't quite the same.
"The issue is only partially what sparring tells you about Uechi Ryu. Without some freeform format, we are missing a vital element in self defense. You cannot defend yourself if you aren't able to produce spontaneous combinations against an uncooperative partner in a stressful environment. I can't count how many folks I've had who could do great kata and prearranged work, but couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag because they weren't able to ad lib their waza, so to write.
You need SOME kind of jiyu format."
I think Mr. Glasheen hits the nail on the head with these words. I understand what your saying about sport karate, but IMO their must be some kind of a measure for the canidates improvision skills.
-
Rick Wilson
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
Uechij and Bill:
Excellent comments. I agree completely that a jiyu form is required. Many of the drills I work on in class are in jiyu format they just are not sport sparring. Nothing says the self defense portion or the bunkai portion of a test has to be prearranged.
I am all for suiting up and going at it on mats
.
I think it was Van Sensei who proposed using scenarios as a test portion -- an excellent idea. The difficulty is that this would require the proper equipment and that is expense.
Uechij, I also agree with your comment that sparring is one small portion of an evaluation.
On Van's forum there is a post on Dan Testing that lists many factors the writer considers. I found it an educational read:
http://www.xpres.net/~gmattson/ubbs/Forum2/HTML/001631.html
Sparring could even be said to demonstrate to reaction, timing, distancing and spirit, or as Bill says it should also be required to also demonstrate the principles of Sanchin -- centring, rooting, alignment, relaxation etc.
However, sparring is not a small percentage of our Dan test. In addition it is the generic form of sparring that has become the focus.
KB -- good comments.
I am glad there are opinions being expressed I hope those that have them on all sides of this discussion will post.
Rick
Excellent comments. I agree completely that a jiyu form is required. Many of the drills I work on in class are in jiyu format they just are not sport sparring. Nothing says the self defense portion or the bunkai portion of a test has to be prearranged.
I am all for suiting up and going at it on mats
. I think it was Van Sensei who proposed using scenarios as a test portion -- an excellent idea. The difficulty is that this would require the proper equipment and that is expense.
Uechij, I also agree with your comment that sparring is one small portion of an evaluation.
On Van's forum there is a post on Dan Testing that lists many factors the writer considers. I found it an educational read:
http://www.xpres.net/~gmattson/ubbs/Forum2/HTML/001631.html
Sparring could even be said to demonstrate to reaction, timing, distancing and spirit, or as Bill says it should also be required to also demonstrate the principles of Sanchin -- centring, rooting, alignment, relaxation etc.
However, sparring is not a small percentage of our Dan test. In addition it is the generic form of sparring that has become the focus.
KB -- good comments.
I am glad there are opinions being expressed I hope those that have them on all sides of this discussion will post.
Rick
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
Just my personal experience/view...
There is higher percentage of "fighters" among those who spar and mix it up on the floor (and I don't mean along a "point" format.) Mixing it up develops spontaniety and other attributes that carry over to the street. I don't see that happening as much with Kata-only practitioners.
Jiyu type exercises/drills are certainly better than kata and bunkai only. But if it doesn't involve some extended banging, then the attribute of mental toughness that comes from staying in there and banging out does get developed as much.
I often hear the critique that "sport sparring" develops bad habits and the lost of "more deadly" techniques when the $hit hits the fan.... I haven't found this true. Frankly, I resort right to throat, groin and knee shots on the street. I have friends who have done the same, plus ramming the BG's head into cars, lamppost, etc, or picking a bottle, stick, brick and cracking it over the BG's head. Sparring doesn't seem to inhibit their ability to access their mental toughness and their spontaneity in doing what is required and available in the moment to put their opponent down.
The fighters I grew up with fight and spar.
david
There is higher percentage of "fighters" among those who spar and mix it up on the floor (and I don't mean along a "point" format.) Mixing it up develops spontaniety and other attributes that carry over to the street. I don't see that happening as much with Kata-only practitioners.
Jiyu type exercises/drills are certainly better than kata and bunkai only. But if it doesn't involve some extended banging, then the attribute of mental toughness that comes from staying in there and banging out does get developed as much.
I often hear the critique that "sport sparring" develops bad habits and the lost of "more deadly" techniques when the $hit hits the fan.... I haven't found this true. Frankly, I resort right to throat, groin and knee shots on the street. I have friends who have done the same, plus ramming the BG's head into cars, lamppost, etc, or picking a bottle, stick, brick and cracking it over the BG's head. Sparring doesn't seem to inhibit their ability to access their mental toughness and their spontaneity in doing what is required and available in the moment to put their opponent down.
The fighters I grew up with fight and spar.
david
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
I recently wrote a (brief) article to my old TKD club about the almost dichotomy of martial arts (partic TKD and shotokan karate) after training with a few diff groups.
Basically I feel that there are too v distinct sides to a martial art. The "modern" side if you will of sparring and musical kata demo's etc in which no-one really gets hurt and it all looks nice, compared to the original martial aspect prevalent in the katas designed (gen) to kill in a short a space of time as poss.
While I personally don't like the idea of how martial arts are becoming this sports based I can appreciate how such attributes as timing reaction etc can only really be trained by sparring (musical kata demo has no use at all as far as I can see) and as such it is something i train and recommend.
The martial side is something I emphasise more but is not always suitable for a modern society. We must recognise that classical martial arts are not designed for the world we live in and all who train must carefully consider their reasons. People want to train for diff reasons and fitness and style are 2 of the main ones now. Self-defence isn't a viable reason as a good self-def course is a much better option. While I agree with Mr Wilson that gradings have become too sparring based, surely this is a natural evolution as classical martial arts fall behind in a society that they aren't designed for?
That should get some opinions flying.
------------------
Daniel Thomas
Basically I feel that there are too v distinct sides to a martial art. The "modern" side if you will of sparring and musical kata demo's etc in which no-one really gets hurt and it all looks nice, compared to the original martial aspect prevalent in the katas designed (gen) to kill in a short a space of time as poss.
While I personally don't like the idea of how martial arts are becoming this sports based I can appreciate how such attributes as timing reaction etc can only really be trained by sparring (musical kata demo has no use at all as far as I can see) and as such it is something i train and recommend.
The martial side is something I emphasise more but is not always suitable for a modern society. We must recognise that classical martial arts are not designed for the world we live in and all who train must carefully consider their reasons. People want to train for diff reasons and fitness and style are 2 of the main ones now. Self-defence isn't a viable reason as a good self-def course is a much better option. While I agree with Mr Wilson that gradings have become too sparring based, surely this is a natural evolution as classical martial arts fall behind in a society that they aren't designed for?
That should get some opinions flying.
------------------
Daniel Thomas
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
Then we have this: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Van Sensei,
I was one of them! But I gave it a try and WOW, what an eye opener. I've now had the pleasure in seeing many martial artist give this a try and everyone has had a blast and has opened up new method to add to there training.
I don't see this training as a challenge to traditional training. It provides the adrenaline stress that is missing from our dojo floor. Knowing how to react when the shxx hit's the fan is a very valuable experience.
The idea/method of this training is to create success not failure when attacked by the bulletman.
I hope I can influence a couple more people to give this type of training a try.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
~Alan~
IUKF is a good balance between tradition and evolution. We constantly strive to achieve more challenging and useful standards for our members.
I’d like to see our Dan tests to evolve thus:
1] Cut out the exercises section of the test. Who cares if you can do, or know moves that repeat in the kata over and over.
2] Cut out the Dan Kumite. Who cares about you showing me blocks and kicks which you should be able to show me in free sparring, and which most of the times you don’t.
3] Do show me your proficiency in Seisan bunkai.
4] Do free fight to show me how you handle yourself along this concept: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Sport, by removing some of the potential dangers, achieves the opposite. That is, sport more typically produces natural, fast, reflexive movement with full power application, achieving a result against a struggling opponent who is also utilizing full power while engaging in strategic and tactical resistance using all of his or her resources and training.
Techniques that don't work are soon abandoned, and successful skills are honed against different attackers under a variety of conditions. Maintaining control in various combat situations, both in attack and defense, is difficult when faced with the unpredictable nature of an opponent's efforts, but facing these situations in contest prepares you for similar situations. Each opponent in competition is operating at the limit of physical and psychological skill. By pushing that limit contestants are continually realizing and expanding their potential.
In martial sports, one purpose of competition is to take the place of the older shinken shobu (life-and-death fights) in developing technique, knowledge, and character. You never see yourself so clearly as when you face your own death. Competition can provide a safe, controlled glimpse at this kind of defeat.
Fighting spirit can be developed only through fighting. Surely it is not the same as the battlefield, but it serves a similar purpose, and it is closer to a combat situation than any other form of training.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[Neil Ohlenkamp]
5] After your free fighting, whatever format we agree on, and when you are good and tired and , hopefully bruised up some, the real test begins:
Alan Lowell will have shown up with a couple of professional bulletmen, who will have donned their gear out of sight but who were present with the helmets on, while watching you spar in silence, sending you subliminal messages of what would come next, thus adding to your pre-encounter adrenaline and stress build up.
Here is where you will be tested: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
And if we run into overtime, so what!!
How many times have I seen candidates get the “bum’s rush”
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
6] Who pays for the bulletmen? Now you are talking__
That is the only time when I can see an increase in the fee _because it benefits the candidates directly.
So if the test fee must go up to $200 or $250 to allow professional bulletmen to come in from out of State, it would be money well-spent .
And still cheaper than having to pay hundreds of dollars for an Okinawan diploma, which you can still pay for if you want.
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited April 04, 2002).]
I was one of them! But I gave it a try and WOW, what an eye opener. I've now had the pleasure in seeing many martial artist give this a try and everyone has had a blast and has opened up new method to add to there training.
I don't see this training as a challenge to traditional training. It provides the adrenaline stress that is missing from our dojo floor. Knowing how to react when the shxx hit's the fan is a very valuable experience.
The idea/method of this training is to create success not failure when attacked by the bulletman.
I hope I can influence a couple more people to give this type of training a try.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
~Alan~
IUKF is a good balance between tradition and evolution. We constantly strive to achieve more challenging and useful standards for our members.
I’d like to see our Dan tests to evolve thus:
1] Cut out the exercises section of the test. Who cares if you can do, or know moves that repeat in the kata over and over.
2] Cut out the Dan Kumite. Who cares about you showing me blocks and kicks which you should be able to show me in free sparring, and which most of the times you don’t.
3] Do show me your proficiency in Seisan bunkai.
4] Do free fight to show me how you handle yourself along this concept: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Sport, by removing some of the potential dangers, achieves the opposite. That is, sport more typically produces natural, fast, reflexive movement with full power application, achieving a result against a struggling opponent who is also utilizing full power while engaging in strategic and tactical resistance using all of his or her resources and training.
Techniques that don't work are soon abandoned, and successful skills are honed against different attackers under a variety of conditions. Maintaining control in various combat situations, both in attack and defense, is difficult when faced with the unpredictable nature of an opponent's efforts, but facing these situations in contest prepares you for similar situations. Each opponent in competition is operating at the limit of physical and psychological skill. By pushing that limit contestants are continually realizing and expanding their potential.
In martial sports, one purpose of competition is to take the place of the older shinken shobu (life-and-death fights) in developing technique, knowledge, and character. You never see yourself so clearly as when you face your own death. Competition can provide a safe, controlled glimpse at this kind of defeat.
Fighting spirit can be developed only through fighting. Surely it is not the same as the battlefield, but it serves a similar purpose, and it is closer to a combat situation than any other form of training.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[Neil Ohlenkamp]
5] After your free fighting, whatever format we agree on, and when you are good and tired and , hopefully bruised up some, the real test begins:
Alan Lowell will have shown up with a couple of professional bulletmen, who will have donned their gear out of sight but who were present with the helmets on, while watching you spar in silence, sending you subliminal messages of what would come next, thus adding to your pre-encounter adrenaline and stress build up.
Here is where you will be tested: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
If we cut out the useless stuff and stick with the useful, it should not take too long to finish the test at a reasonable hour.It’s awesome! Learning verbal boundary setting and being able to react while under the chemical cocktail firing off full contact blows.
And if we run into overtime, so what!!
How many times have I seen candidates get the “bum’s rush”
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
If you are henpecked, you don’t belong on the board, you don’t belong on the floor as a teacher in support of your student at the test, As a matter of fact, you don’t belong in Uechi!I have to go, my wife will kill me__ I promised her I would take her out to dinner__ Sorry honey, I’ll be home in a half hour [cell phone blasting away]__ cell phones ringing during the Dan test_
6] Who pays for the bulletmen? Now you are talking__
That is the only time when I can see an increase in the fee _because it benefits the candidates directly.
So if the test fee must go up to $200 or $250 to allow professional bulletmen to come in from out of State, it would be money well-spent .
And still cheaper than having to pay hundreds of dollars for an Okinawan diploma, which you can still pay for if you want.
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited April 04, 2002).]
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
Here is a view. This article sent to me by my student Fred Chan.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> One of the primary differences between martial sports and arts is in the value of the training methods.
Because of their purported lethality, many martial arts engage in artificial and even counter-productive training which involves "pulling" techniques, modifying the point of contact, and adding in a precautionary element of movement that, rather than training the body, can inhibit its natural action and the ultimate conclusion of a technique.
Typifying this approach is a student who equates the ability to break boards with the ability to punch a person in the face. As another example, I have never seen realistic training in throat strikes or eye gouges in any martial arts class, even though these are often taught for self defense.
The teaching generally done for these techniques helps students to understand what to do, but does not provide effective results for fast, reflexive and accurate application of these techniques against an unwilling opponent in real life combat.
Sport, by removing some of the potential dangers, achieves the opposite. That is, sport more typically produces natural, fast, reflexive movement with full power application, achieving a result against a struggling opponent who is also utilizing full power while engaging in strategic and tactical resistance using all of his or her resources and training.
Techniques that don't work are soon abandoned, and successful skills are honed against different attackers under a variety of conditions.
Maintaining control in various combat situations, both in attack and defense, is difficult when faced with the unpredictable nature of an opponent's efforts, but facing these situations in contest prepares you for similar situations.
Each opponent in competition is operating at the limit of physical and psychological skill. By pushing that limit contestants are continually realizing and expanding their potential.
Sometimes the "combat" arts substitute intellectual perception, a highly subjective and deceptive frame of reference, for genuine training of the body and mind. Some martial arts don't train effectively for self defense and combat because they can't train for combat without severe risk to training partners.
So many martial arts have instead adopted highly stylized, ritualistic, and even dysfunctional training methods.
Ironically, martial sports may provide the superior training in effective combat techniques because martial arts can't be practiced in a real life way without injury.
In martial sports, one purpose of competition is to take the place of the older shinken shobu (life-and-death fights) in developing technique, knowledge, and character.
You never see yourself so clearly as when you face your own death.
Competition can provide a safe, controlled glimpse at this kind of defeat. Fighting spirit can be developed only through fighting.
Surely it is not the same as the battlefield, but it serves a similar purpose, and it is closer to a combat situation than any other form of training.
Of course this can go wrong. Winning and losing can become too important and start to pervert the training process. The ultimate goal is not the winning of medals. Matches, along with free practice and sparring, are simply different methods for training.
Just as non-competitive martial arts training may not provide the benefits of competition, training for sport competition may not provide the full scope of self defense training.
Martial sports often include non-competitive components. For example, competition is only a part of the Judo curriculum, and Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, was very concerned about preserving those self defense techniques that could not be used with full force in competition.
However, Judo today remains a remarkably effective self defense training, even after nearly 120 years of the development of other "combat" methods, and even when practiced today largely as a sport.
Jigoro Kano applied modern sport training methodology to koryu jujutsu and found that it produced a better combat art.
Although martial arts and sports both have loftier goals, it is a fact that many people train in martial arts primarily for self-defense. For those who have never used sport training methods, or those who have never explored traditional bujutsu training, it is easy to discount the effectiveness of the other.
As martial artists we should continually seek opportunities to challenge ourselves by examining the weaknesses in our training and keeping our minds open to other methods.
I encourage you to discover for yourself how "playing" with a partner in sparring or free practice, or competing against an opponent in contest, can be an effective method of training for self defense.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[By Neil Ohlenkamp]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> One of the primary differences between martial sports and arts is in the value of the training methods.
Because of their purported lethality, many martial arts engage in artificial and even counter-productive training which involves "pulling" techniques, modifying the point of contact, and adding in a precautionary element of movement that, rather than training the body, can inhibit its natural action and the ultimate conclusion of a technique.
Typifying this approach is a student who equates the ability to break boards with the ability to punch a person in the face. As another example, I have never seen realistic training in throat strikes or eye gouges in any martial arts class, even though these are often taught for self defense.
The teaching generally done for these techniques helps students to understand what to do, but does not provide effective results for fast, reflexive and accurate application of these techniques against an unwilling opponent in real life combat.
Sport, by removing some of the potential dangers, achieves the opposite. That is, sport more typically produces natural, fast, reflexive movement with full power application, achieving a result against a struggling opponent who is also utilizing full power while engaging in strategic and tactical resistance using all of his or her resources and training.
Techniques that don't work are soon abandoned, and successful skills are honed against different attackers under a variety of conditions.
Maintaining control in various combat situations, both in attack and defense, is difficult when faced with the unpredictable nature of an opponent's efforts, but facing these situations in contest prepares you for similar situations.
Each opponent in competition is operating at the limit of physical and psychological skill. By pushing that limit contestants are continually realizing and expanding their potential.
Sometimes the "combat" arts substitute intellectual perception, a highly subjective and deceptive frame of reference, for genuine training of the body and mind. Some martial arts don't train effectively for self defense and combat because they can't train for combat without severe risk to training partners.
So many martial arts have instead adopted highly stylized, ritualistic, and even dysfunctional training methods.
Ironically, martial sports may provide the superior training in effective combat techniques because martial arts can't be practiced in a real life way without injury.
In martial sports, one purpose of competition is to take the place of the older shinken shobu (life-and-death fights) in developing technique, knowledge, and character.
You never see yourself so clearly as when you face your own death.
Competition can provide a safe, controlled glimpse at this kind of defeat. Fighting spirit can be developed only through fighting.
Surely it is not the same as the battlefield, but it serves a similar purpose, and it is closer to a combat situation than any other form of training.
Of course this can go wrong. Winning and losing can become too important and start to pervert the training process. The ultimate goal is not the winning of medals. Matches, along with free practice and sparring, are simply different methods for training.
Just as non-competitive martial arts training may not provide the benefits of competition, training for sport competition may not provide the full scope of self defense training.
Martial sports often include non-competitive components. For example, competition is only a part of the Judo curriculum, and Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, was very concerned about preserving those self defense techniques that could not be used with full force in competition.
However, Judo today remains a remarkably effective self defense training, even after nearly 120 years of the development of other "combat" methods, and even when practiced today largely as a sport.
Jigoro Kano applied modern sport training methodology to koryu jujutsu and found that it produced a better combat art.
Although martial arts and sports both have loftier goals, it is a fact that many people train in martial arts primarily for self-defense. For those who have never used sport training methods, or those who have never explored traditional bujutsu training, it is easy to discount the effectiveness of the other.
As martial artists we should continually seek opportunities to challenge ourselves by examining the weaknesses in our training and keeping our minds open to other methods.
I encourage you to discover for yourself how "playing" with a partner in sparring or free practice, or competing against an opponent in contest, can be an effective method of training for self defense.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[By Neil Ohlenkamp]
-
Rick Wilson
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
A thank you to all those joining in. I hope more will start to let us know what they think.
There are a number of issues surrounding sparring, and I do not want to get too far off the point of this thread’s discussion, but they are too valid not to make some comment on them.
David:
You made some good points on sparring itself, but I there is one that I question, but NOT as to yourself or the people you are commenting on. You commented that you, and people you know, have no problem changing gears between self defense and sparring. I think there is an important distinction between yourself, and the people you know, and many of those training in martial art schools.
David, you have experienced violence and physical confrontations. I would suspect that the other people you are referring to have also experienced violence and physical confrontations. Many people training in a martial arts school have never been in a fight. Many people training in martial arts schools have never been involved in any kind of violent situation or physical confrontation. I believe this to be a VERY important distinction.
I believe the ability to shift gears from sparring to self defense is directly related to the real life experience held by the people involved. I do not believe those who lack the experience of reality are able to make the shift that easily. I believe you and others revert back to school of hard knocks training when under adrenalin.
But what will the inexperience revert back to? All they have is what they train in their martial arts school. If they are not properly trained in reality, then they will do what they are most used to doing. If that is generic sport karate then that is what they will do.
I posted a comment on Van Sensei’s forum about Ron Sieh’s book where he tells of the time that he used his “martial” training and pull a roundhouse kick he had delivered to an aggressor’s chest. He commented how he had learned to do his style but he had not learned to fight. Bottom line is that he had no real life experience so when the %^&^ hit the fan he did what he had trained to do – sport stuff.
I think the second factor at play here is that you (David) state your idea of sparring is different from the generic sport sparring I was specifically questioning being a part of the Uechi Ryu Dan test. You point out that banging around is important -- I do not refute that valid claim. Good hard banging is not a bad place to revert to.
The difficulty here is that school owners always have the liability issue to consider. A harsh reality.
Sparring in the generic sport sense and the importance of it on the Dan test are my concerns. Whether there should be some form of sparring on the Dan test I have never felt the need to question, although I do question the percentage of a Uechi Ryu Dan test based on any form that stops once you are in close quarters. I also dislike that generic sport karate (Tournament Karate) is the same regardless of style.
Can we learn something from taking part in sport sparring? I have no doubt. I have sparred many times in the different styles I have studied. There are things to learn.
There are also things learned incorrectly from generic sport sparring – positioning for a strike to score a point and not damage your opponent is different from the positioning required to go through someone. I have seen the effect this has on people who have never had to defend themselves. Quite frankly they do not position themselves properly even in a prearranged self defense drill, therefore I surmise that they would not do so in the adrenalin filled reality of one.
The questions that I see coming from this thread are:
1) Should generic sport sparring be a part of a Uechi Ryu Dan test? (My question.)
2) If sparring is to be a part of the Dan test (I am assuming so) then:
i) What form should it be?
ii) What percentage should it represent?
I guess we may well be at a cross road in the IUKF. Perhaps this is a good subject for a poll?
1) Should sport (tournament) karate sparring be a required part of Uechi Ryu?
2) Does sport karate sparring express the principles of Uechi Ryu?
3) Should sport (tournament) sparring be part of the Uechi Ryu Dan test?
4) Should sparring, in some form, be part of the Uechi Ryu Dan test?
5) If you answered yes to either question on including sparring in the Uechi Ryu Dan test, what percentage of the test should sparring represent:
30 %
25%
20%
15%
10%
5%
6) Does generic sport karate sparring threaten the uniqueness of Uechi Ryu?
Or may be someone without a bias should write the questions.
I will point out that if generic sport sparring is a deciding factor on the uechi Ryu Dan test then it has been made a requirement in the study of Uechi Ryu.
Once again a clarification. I am not completely against sparring being on the Dan test. I am not in favour of it being a high percentage while the self defense aspects disappear. I greatly dislike the "generic" brand of tournament karate sparring where you doing the same thing as any other style. No disrespect intended to other styles but if I wanted to do another brand of karate I would have studied it. I chose Uechi Ryu specifically for what makes it different. As Bill said there are manners of sparring where it is expected that they demonstrate the principles of Sanchin. They should demonstrate Uechi Ryu.
Van Sensei -- Great ideas.
All you people reading please post your opinions.
Rick
There are a number of issues surrounding sparring, and I do not want to get too far off the point of this thread’s discussion, but they are too valid not to make some comment on them.
David:
You made some good points on sparring itself, but I there is one that I question, but NOT as to yourself or the people you are commenting on. You commented that you, and people you know, have no problem changing gears between self defense and sparring. I think there is an important distinction between yourself, and the people you know, and many of those training in martial art schools.
David, you have experienced violence and physical confrontations. I would suspect that the other people you are referring to have also experienced violence and physical confrontations. Many people training in a martial arts school have never been in a fight. Many people training in martial arts schools have never been involved in any kind of violent situation or physical confrontation. I believe this to be a VERY important distinction.
I believe the ability to shift gears from sparring to self defense is directly related to the real life experience held by the people involved. I do not believe those who lack the experience of reality are able to make the shift that easily. I believe you and others revert back to school of hard knocks training when under adrenalin.
But what will the inexperience revert back to? All they have is what they train in their martial arts school. If they are not properly trained in reality, then they will do what they are most used to doing. If that is generic sport karate then that is what they will do.
I posted a comment on Van Sensei’s forum about Ron Sieh’s book where he tells of the time that he used his “martial” training and pull a roundhouse kick he had delivered to an aggressor’s chest. He commented how he had learned to do his style but he had not learned to fight. Bottom line is that he had no real life experience so when the %^&^ hit the fan he did what he had trained to do – sport stuff.
I think the second factor at play here is that you (David) state your idea of sparring is different from the generic sport sparring I was specifically questioning being a part of the Uechi Ryu Dan test. You point out that banging around is important -- I do not refute that valid claim. Good hard banging is not a bad place to revert to.
The difficulty here is that school owners always have the liability issue to consider. A harsh reality.
Sparring in the generic sport sense and the importance of it on the Dan test are my concerns. Whether there should be some form of sparring on the Dan test I have never felt the need to question, although I do question the percentage of a Uechi Ryu Dan test based on any form that stops once you are in close quarters. I also dislike that generic sport karate (Tournament Karate) is the same regardless of style.
Can we learn something from taking part in sport sparring? I have no doubt. I have sparred many times in the different styles I have studied. There are things to learn.
There are also things learned incorrectly from generic sport sparring – positioning for a strike to score a point and not damage your opponent is different from the positioning required to go through someone. I have seen the effect this has on people who have never had to defend themselves. Quite frankly they do not position themselves properly even in a prearranged self defense drill, therefore I surmise that they would not do so in the adrenalin filled reality of one.
The questions that I see coming from this thread are:
1) Should generic sport sparring be a part of a Uechi Ryu Dan test? (My question.)
2) If sparring is to be a part of the Dan test (I am assuming so) then:
i) What form should it be?
ii) What percentage should it represent?
I guess we may well be at a cross road in the IUKF. Perhaps this is a good subject for a poll?
1) Should sport (tournament) karate sparring be a required part of Uechi Ryu?
2) Does sport karate sparring express the principles of Uechi Ryu?
3) Should sport (tournament) sparring be part of the Uechi Ryu Dan test?
4) Should sparring, in some form, be part of the Uechi Ryu Dan test?
5) If you answered yes to either question on including sparring in the Uechi Ryu Dan test, what percentage of the test should sparring represent:
30 %
25%
20%
15%
10%
5%
6) Does generic sport karate sparring threaten the uniqueness of Uechi Ryu?
Or may be someone without a bias should write the questions
.I will point out that if generic sport sparring is a deciding factor on the uechi Ryu Dan test then it has been made a requirement in the study of Uechi Ryu.
Once again a clarification. I am not completely against sparring being on the Dan test. I am not in favour of it being a high percentage while the self defense aspects disappear. I greatly dislike the "generic" brand of tournament karate sparring where you doing the same thing as any other style. No disrespect intended to other styles but if I wanted to do another brand of karate I would have studied it. I chose Uechi Ryu specifically for what makes it different. As Bill said there are manners of sparring where it is expected that they demonstrate the principles of Sanchin. They should demonstrate Uechi Ryu.
Van Sensei -- Great ideas.
All you people reading please post your opinions.
Rick
-
Tony-San
My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu
Sooner or later, folks practicing at the Dan level, pursue their own goals in uechi. Some cultivate this, others cultivate that. The test board, at some level should become intimatley involved with each practitioner and test them based on the direction they are going in the style, providing encouragement also. My group is well aware of where my emphasis is at this point in my training and I am confident that is where the emphasis will be on my next test.
Really.. think about it.. why have the same test for everyone?
Really.. think about it.. why have the same test for everyone?
