Send them videos in. I would like to create a training section on the video page. Also, if you want to send in any for posting on the forums, you can email them to me at scotttd@optonline.net. You will get full credit with a copyright (if you so own the rights).
* Send an mpeg in lieu of an avi if possible. They are much smaller. I will most likely convert it to WMV for broadband and asf for modem users. These are even smaller files to conserve server space. I can get WMV's "close" to mpeg quality
* Describe in brief detail what the video is about so I can place the description with the video on the video site. If you only want the video on forums and not the video site let me know that too.
* If you do not wish to put the video on the video site, just the forum, AND you have access to another server, please use it. Just make the link to the video the same as you would a link to another web site.
BTW: I did a count last night on the video site. There are now 63 videos ranging from a few seconds (like 1 or 2 of them) to 30 minutes. If you haven't visited it, do so. I think we have one of the finest Martial Art video sites on the web. Very diverse and educational and entertaining.
Scott
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VISIT:
Uechi-Ryu.Com Multimedia
Uechi-Ryu.Com Hotlist (Martial Art Links)
Taking Charge - Cable TV & Video Martial Arts Show
[This message has been edited by Scott Danziger (edited April 17, 2002).]
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Harry
Thanks for the clarification.
Carlos
Keep us honest, buddy!
- Bill
Thanks for the clarification.
Carlos
Keep us honest, buddy!
- Bill
New Video
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
Jim, very good strategies outlined. Thank you.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gmattson:
In the first clip, Justin is attacking Paul, without any notice. He has a quarter second to get in, which he does quite nicely on the 3rd and 4th sequence, after demonstrating the move a couple times. I defy anyone standing where Paul was, being unaware of Justin's move, to do anything but what Paul did. . . get hit!
In the second clip, Justin was demonstrating a simple lunge backfist, followed up with a kick. Again, I'd like to see someone not get hit by that first backfist!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Respectfully, I can only report my experience:
This kind of attack, which I would call a semi-close range Centerline attack with force (removing the guard) is what WC does all day. Because WC does this all the time we a very used to initiating and countering this kind of move - we are successful about 90% of the time in general in stopping at least the initial attack. So as for his first movement I would say that the chances for stopping it are quite favorable.
In the attack one thing we do a little differently is to keep the attacking hand high and close to the target out in front of us - in the Center. Instead of chambering this places the attacking weapon closer to the opponent and gives him even less time to react.
In ‘defense’ of this 'fast move' one secret is that the defender can already have his ‘bridge’ (forearm) in the Center – elbow in. This is part of the core of WC - what this means is that the Center is already closed and he cannot enter through the 'front door.' For him to enter he must now go around your lead guard. He can try this but it takes longer. Longer than what? Longer than it takes to shoot your lead directly into his Center - or jaw, most often.
Other things can be done to increase the chances for success (and make you feel safer), including grabbing his arm, off balancing him, wedging your leg into his, etc., but at the core is that the defense should be an attack that involves a slightly angled step-in and Center attack on the line. What makes it possible to 'react' to something that is so 'fast' is because you can train to already be in the Center and you train to move in and attack the Centerline and thus his incoming weapon – clash - if he tries to go around your attack he will get hit 90% of the time. If there is a clash, then it's energy manipulation time. Bruce used to tell his students, ‘Don't get scared backward get scared forward!’ I would guess that Grandmaster Uechi would have suggested training to ‘feel safer’ going in if attacked. For me, personally when attacked I feel much safer shooting inside. Once walking down the street on the way home from class one night I walked by some tough looking guy on the street and just after I passed him he put his hand on my shoulder from behind. I still have no idea why, but what happed is that I didn’t even think – my body immediately turned and I stepped into him instantly with my hands up. Well, this guy almost jumped out of his socks – he flew backwards from being scared $hitless, smiled sheepishly and said, hi how you doin? I smiled and walked away.
To react immediately with an attack removes much of the reaction time needed to think - if one trains only one response this can reduce reaction time quite a bit and along with correct structure have a good chance for success. We like to focus on doing only one thing – attacking him.
Now there is a big difference between being ‘ready’ for an attack and being surprised by an attack. If your distance has been compromised and you can’t attack him then by all means get out of the way – and flank him. I would not suggest moving straight back since this will just give him a chance to continue his attack.
I think that it's really important to understand that it is very possible to counter these kinds of fast - close in attacks because this is the gateway to infighting. Honestly any decent student can be trained to do this, I swear - I have helped train many a student to do this over the years.
------------------
Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu
[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited April 18, 2002).]
Jim, very good strategies outlined. Thank you.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gmattson:
In the first clip, Justin is attacking Paul, without any notice. He has a quarter second to get in, which he does quite nicely on the 3rd and 4th sequence, after demonstrating the move a couple times. I defy anyone standing where Paul was, being unaware of Justin's move, to do anything but what Paul did. . . get hit!
In the second clip, Justin was demonstrating a simple lunge backfist, followed up with a kick. Again, I'd like to see someone not get hit by that first backfist!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Respectfully, I can only report my experience:
This kind of attack, which I would call a semi-close range Centerline attack with force (removing the guard) is what WC does all day. Because WC does this all the time we a very used to initiating and countering this kind of move - we are successful about 90% of the time in general in stopping at least the initial attack. So as for his first movement I would say that the chances for stopping it are quite favorable.
In the attack one thing we do a little differently is to keep the attacking hand high and close to the target out in front of us - in the Center. Instead of chambering this places the attacking weapon closer to the opponent and gives him even less time to react.
In ‘defense’ of this 'fast move' one secret is that the defender can already have his ‘bridge’ (forearm) in the Center – elbow in. This is part of the core of WC - what this means is that the Center is already closed and he cannot enter through the 'front door.' For him to enter he must now go around your lead guard. He can try this but it takes longer. Longer than what? Longer than it takes to shoot your lead directly into his Center - or jaw, most often.
Other things can be done to increase the chances for success (and make you feel safer), including grabbing his arm, off balancing him, wedging your leg into his, etc., but at the core is that the defense should be an attack that involves a slightly angled step-in and Center attack on the line. What makes it possible to 'react' to something that is so 'fast' is because you can train to already be in the Center and you train to move in and attack the Centerline and thus his incoming weapon – clash - if he tries to go around your attack he will get hit 90% of the time. If there is a clash, then it's energy manipulation time. Bruce used to tell his students, ‘Don't get scared backward get scared forward!’ I would guess that Grandmaster Uechi would have suggested training to ‘feel safer’ going in if attacked. For me, personally when attacked I feel much safer shooting inside. Once walking down the street on the way home from class one night I walked by some tough looking guy on the street and just after I passed him he put his hand on my shoulder from behind. I still have no idea why, but what happed is that I didn’t even think – my body immediately turned and I stepped into him instantly with my hands up. Well, this guy almost jumped out of his socks – he flew backwards from being scared $hitless, smiled sheepishly and said, hi how you doin? I smiled and walked away.
To react immediately with an attack removes much of the reaction time needed to think - if one trains only one response this can reduce reaction time quite a bit and along with correct structure have a good chance for success. We like to focus on doing only one thing – attacking him.
Now there is a big difference between being ‘ready’ for an attack and being surprised by an attack. If your distance has been compromised and you can’t attack him then by all means get out of the way – and flank him. I would not suggest moving straight back since this will just give him a chance to continue his attack.
I think that it's really important to understand that it is very possible to counter these kinds of fast - close in attacks because this is the gateway to infighting. Honestly any decent student can be trained to do this, I swear - I have helped train many a student to do this over the years.
------------------
Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu
[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited April 18, 2002).]
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gmattson
- Site Admin
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New Video
I've been busy preparing for my trip and was unable to include some explanation with the film clips I sent to Scott which is the subject of this discussion.
First off, at the Hut, we try to get as much as possible out of all the drills.
Surprise: We found out that when both students know when the attack is to be delivered and who is delivering it, the defender is capable of all kinds of strategy and pre-emptive attacks.
In the first clip, Justin is attacking Paul, without any notice. He has a quarter second to get in, which he does quite nicely on the 3rd and 4th sequence, after demonstrating the move a couple times. I defy anyone standing where Paul was, being unaware of Justin's move, to do anything but what Paul did. . . get hit!
In the second clip, Justin was demonstrating a simple lunge backfist, followed up with a kick. Again, I'd like to see someone not get hit by that first backfist!
We are training for the May Uechi tournament and practicing the kind of moves that win points.
In the third clip, we are practicing the number two movement from kyu kumite. We've modified the drill somewhat, delivering two reverse punches as the attacker, making the punches very difficult to block. The defenders were given instruction to try and move to the side instead of moving straight back. Even though I was signalling when the attack was coming, most of these advanced students found moving to the side difficult.
This is a black belt class and most of the students are pretty fair fighters. Still, after a couple weeks of working on moving to the side, were unable to defend against these two, very powerful and fast punches with movements we practiced. I'm not saying this won't happen someday, but it isn't easy.
I've seen teachers trying to instruct students to stand their ground or perform (or try to perform) simultaneous attacks. Generally, this training isn't very popular, since both students get banged up pretty bad in the exchange.
------------------
GEM
First off, at the Hut, we try to get as much as possible out of all the drills.
Surprise: We found out that when both students know when the attack is to be delivered and who is delivering it, the defender is capable of all kinds of strategy and pre-emptive attacks.
In the first clip, Justin is attacking Paul, without any notice. He has a quarter second to get in, which he does quite nicely on the 3rd and 4th sequence, after demonstrating the move a couple times. I defy anyone standing where Paul was, being unaware of Justin's move, to do anything but what Paul did. . . get hit!
In the second clip, Justin was demonstrating a simple lunge backfist, followed up with a kick. Again, I'd like to see someone not get hit by that first backfist!
We are training for the May Uechi tournament and practicing the kind of moves that win points.
In the third clip, we are practicing the number two movement from kyu kumite. We've modified the drill somewhat, delivering two reverse punches as the attacker, making the punches very difficult to block. The defenders were given instruction to try and move to the side instead of moving straight back. Even though I was signalling when the attack was coming, most of these advanced students found moving to the side difficult.
This is a black belt class and most of the students are pretty fair fighters. Still, after a couple weeks of working on moving to the side, were unable to defend against these two, very powerful and fast punches with movements we practiced. I'm not saying this won't happen someday, but it isn't easy.
I've seen teachers trying to instruct students to stand their ground or perform (or try to perform) simultaneous attacks. Generally, this training isn't very popular, since both students get banged up pretty bad in the exchange.
------------------
GEM
New Video
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by harry:
Having looked at the video and then reading the comments I have to say that none of the comments (other than GEM's) have anything to do with the video clip itself :-)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Jim wrote:
For a variation on attack: How about using the grabbing/pinning lead but after you shoot a real lead attack that clashes on his defense then use the rear hand to remove his arm (clear Center) with the jerk pull or pinning hand movement and fire with the now free lead. It is even more favorable if you can get behind his elbow (upper arm near elbow) with a push with the rear hand slightly over the center as you enter - this will take his balance and close off his facing if done right.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Among other things I was suggesting a variation on the attack demod in the video.
Instead of reaching for his hand I think it's safer to shoot an attack at him and then work off his defense. I would absolutely suggest this for the tourney.
------------------
Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu
[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited April 18, 2002).]
Having looked at the video and then reading the comments I have to say that none of the comments (other than GEM's) have anything to do with the video clip itself :-)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Jim wrote:
For a variation on attack: How about using the grabbing/pinning lead but after you shoot a real lead attack that clashes on his defense then use the rear hand to remove his arm (clear Center) with the jerk pull or pinning hand movement and fire with the now free lead. It is even more favorable if you can get behind his elbow (upper arm near elbow) with a push with the rear hand slightly over the center as you enter - this will take his balance and close off his facing if done right.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Among other things I was suggesting a variation on the attack demod in the video.
Instead of reaching for his hand I think it's safer to shoot an attack at him and then work off his defense. I would absolutely suggest this for the tourney.
------------------
Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu
[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited April 18, 2002).]
New Video
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
But like I said, you cannot enter a room packed to the ceiling with junk.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just noticed this. This is the core of Wing Chun theory. My Late Sifu used to say almost exactly the same thing. Surprised me with that one!
------------------
Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu
[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited April 18, 2002).]
But like I said, you cannot enter a room packed to the ceiling with junk.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just noticed this. This is the core of Wing Chun theory. My Late Sifu used to say almost exactly the same thing. Surprised me with that one!
------------------
Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu
[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited April 18, 2002).]
New Video
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:
Centerline concepts are another activity altogether. I've spent quite a bit of time watching several of my Wing Chun tapes. At times I feel I can get as much or more out of what I should know about this Chinese infighting system by...watching applications of Chinese infighting systems. Hmmm...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bill,
Wondering - what you were looking at? Which family and what aspects of the system?
Jim
------------------
Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu
Centerline concepts are another activity altogether. I've spent quite a bit of time watching several of my Wing Chun tapes. At times I feel I can get as much or more out of what I should know about this Chinese infighting system by...watching applications of Chinese infighting systems. Hmmm...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bill,
Wondering - what you were looking at? Which family and what aspects of the system?
Jim
------------------
Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
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Jim
It's been a very long time, and I'd have to look through my references.
A video I have was produced - I believe - by Larry Tan. Something like "Wing Chun - the Science of Infighting." It starts out with a Hollywood style fight between 2 Wing Chun practitioners. Very entertaining and informative. They go on and on and on, so you get to see attacks and defenses in motion. Then I believe it goes on to basic concepts, the performance of Sil Lum Tau, some basic foot movement, etc.
I've had a book for about 25 years (tattered and sitting around somewhere) on Wing Chun. Green paperback book with a picture of someone reacting to having just been hit with a vertical fist punch. Once I actually picked up the first form just by looking at the pictures from that book. When I later saw a movie of it, I was surprisingly close.
Some of the things I picked up from that exposure was some handtrapping, using the elbow movement as a block (followed by our backfist instead of your first form finger strike), concepts of chi sao, and some basic attack-blocks.
I have a third rather detailed book, but haven't given it much in the way of attention. It goes on and on with various hand trapping sequences.
Sorry I can't go any farther than that. My library is at home.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
- Bill
It's been a very long time, and I'd have to look through my references.
A video I have was produced - I believe - by Larry Tan. Something like "Wing Chun - the Science of Infighting." It starts out with a Hollywood style fight between 2 Wing Chun practitioners. Very entertaining and informative. They go on and on and on, so you get to see attacks and defenses in motion. Then I believe it goes on to basic concepts, the performance of Sil Lum Tau, some basic foot movement, etc.
I've had a book for about 25 years (tattered and sitting around somewhere) on Wing Chun. Green paperback book with a picture of someone reacting to having just been hit with a vertical fist punch. Once I actually picked up the first form just by looking at the pictures from that book. When I later saw a movie of it, I was surprisingly close.
Some of the things I picked up from that exposure was some handtrapping, using the elbow movement as a block (followed by our backfist instead of your first form finger strike), concepts of chi sao, and some basic attack-blocks.
I have a third rather detailed book, but haven't given it much in the way of attention. It goes on and on with various hand trapping sequences.
Sorry I can't go any farther than that. My library is at home.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
The Uechi system is close...but different. Strong side back instead of forward. A tendency to leave the centerline slightly open, and have hands forward and on either side of it. No chambering in real Uechi fighting, done like the original Fuzhou system (not many folks realize that).In the attack one thing we do a little differently is to keep the attacking hand high and close to the target out in front of us - in the Center. Instead of chambering this places the attacking weapon closer to the opponent and gives him even less time to react.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
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Jim and others
A little bit of perspective is in order here.
I had a chance to work out with The Hut gang a few Saturdays ago. When it came to partner exercises, I spent almost the whole time working with Justin Testa, the fellow pictured doing the back fist and sidekick attacking sequence.
First of all, Justin was the best fighter I sparred with that day. Say what you want from your comfortable computer chairs; working with him is another story, and I know Van will back me up on that one. Van saw him spar at the dan test the very next day. And frankly...I had a blast working with him.
However...
When we went from prearranged sets and some random partner exercises to sparring, one of the first things Justin threw was that backfist. I managed to get a hand on the centerline (just like Jim suggested), but he still managed to knick my face with it by being very slinky with his movement. It wouldn't have been a "point," but still touched a little too much for my comfort. So anyhow, the first thing I thought was "Wow, haven't seen THAT technique in a long time." You see...that's not a Uechi ryu technique, or not the way you customarily see a Uechi practitioner throw a backfist. Generally it's done from an elbow down position. You don't see any contemporary American Uechi fighters throwing that any more. So where did it come from? When I saw his bald head, his gray hair, and then heard the name, it suddenly dawned on me - he was a Cambridge Street Mattson Academy fighter back from the 1970s era (yes, just like Carlos alluded to). Take a look at George Mattson's Uechiryu Karatedo book, and you'll see a very young Jimmy Malone throwing a lot of the same 1970s-era contemporary tournament techniques from the same old deep stances people generally used back then. Basically everyone learned these same sorts of tournament techniques from everyone else. Back then, very few people (except for maybe a Bobby Campbell) KNEW how to interpret this Uechi system in sparring. Like a lot of karate sytems back then, kata was kata and sparring was sparring.
If you check out Gary Khoury's sparring video or work with him, you'll see a lot of generic karate techniques, but they have much more of a Uechiryu flavor. There's been a lot of growth of the system since the 1970s, all around the world.
Still...Justin can whoop a lot of butts, and that's not too bad considering he's not a spring chicken any more. There are some aspects of fighting that are somewhat independent of style, and Justin has very much matured in those aspects.
And thanks, Justin, for a great time!
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited April 19, 2002).]
A little bit of perspective is in order here.
I had a chance to work out with The Hut gang a few Saturdays ago. When it came to partner exercises, I spent almost the whole time working with Justin Testa, the fellow pictured doing the back fist and sidekick attacking sequence.
First of all, Justin was the best fighter I sparred with that day. Say what you want from your comfortable computer chairs; working with him is another story, and I know Van will back me up on that one. Van saw him spar at the dan test the very next day. And frankly...I had a blast working with him.
However...
When we went from prearranged sets and some random partner exercises to sparring, one of the first things Justin threw was that backfist. I managed to get a hand on the centerline (just like Jim suggested), but he still managed to knick my face with it by being very slinky with his movement. It wouldn't have been a "point," but still touched a little too much for my comfort. So anyhow, the first thing I thought was "Wow, haven't seen THAT technique in a long time." You see...that's not a Uechi ryu technique, or not the way you customarily see a Uechi practitioner throw a backfist. Generally it's done from an elbow down position. You don't see any contemporary American Uechi fighters throwing that any more. So where did it come from? When I saw his bald head, his gray hair, and then heard the name, it suddenly dawned on me - he was a Cambridge Street Mattson Academy fighter back from the 1970s era (yes, just like Carlos alluded to). Take a look at George Mattson's Uechiryu Karatedo book, and you'll see a very young Jimmy Malone throwing a lot of the same 1970s-era contemporary tournament techniques from the same old deep stances people generally used back then. Basically everyone learned these same sorts of tournament techniques from everyone else. Back then, very few people (except for maybe a Bobby Campbell) KNEW how to interpret this Uechi system in sparring. Like a lot of karate sytems back then, kata was kata and sparring was sparring.
If you check out Gary Khoury's sparring video or work with him, you'll see a lot of generic karate techniques, but they have much more of a Uechiryu flavor. There's been a lot of growth of the system since the 1970s, all around the world.
Still...Justin can whoop a lot of butts, and that's not too bad considering he's not a spring chicken any more. There are some aspects of fighting that are somewhat independent of style, and Justin has very much matured in those aspects.
And thanks, Justin, for a great time!
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited April 19, 2002).]
New Video
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:
I've had a book for about 25 years (tattered and sitting around somewhere) on Wing Chun. Green paperback book with a picture of someone reacting to having just been hit with a vertical fist punch. Once I actually picked up the first form just by looking at the pictures from that book. When I later saw a movie of it, I was surprisingly close.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I recognize that cover. Sounds like "Wing Chun Kung Fu" by James Y. Lee. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0897500377/qid=1019252977/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-7719266-4775135
------------------
Glenn
[This message has been edited by Glenn (edited April 19, 2002).]
I've had a book for about 25 years (tattered and sitting around somewhere) on Wing Chun. Green paperback book with a picture of someone reacting to having just been hit with a vertical fist punch. Once I actually picked up the first form just by looking at the pictures from that book. When I later saw a movie of it, I was surprisingly close.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I recognize that cover. Sounds like "Wing Chun Kung Fu" by James Y. Lee. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0897500377/qid=1019252977/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-7719266-4775135
------------------
Glenn
[This message has been edited by Glenn (edited April 19, 2002).]
New Video
Bill,
I must have argued these points 100 times or more. It gets kind of weary after a while, much like trying to get into a room packed to the ceiling with junk.
But I will go one more time.
Both Carlos and Shaolin are trying to tell us something very critical,that gets rationalized away over and over, so be it.
Tony Blauer writes that the sequential relationship in the martial arts ‘drills’ has no basis in reality, because most tactics are based on your anticipation of a specific physical attack, and what’s worse, to anticipate and expect your attacker’s target points on your body.
Such is the nature of prearranged kumites. There is good [maybe for sparring contests], and there is bad [for self defense programming] in doing these drills. [Carlos]
Suckered punched or expecting to be hit, always ends up with the same pattern of the assailant forcing the victim to retreat by “pumping blows” and overwhelming through momentum as the victim stumbles backwards. In most fights you will be “blitz attacked” __
Tony Blauer points out that due to the flinch reflex, the behavioral paradox is that when we are in danger, we want to move away [backwards] __ your hands come up to protect your head, your weight transfers to your back leg, you close your eyes and you back away from danger__ whereas the tactical directive is to move in, as it is just about the only way to stop a close quarter physical threat.
Thus the reason I prefer the method Shaolin outlines, as it seems to be the most foolproof in neutralizing the power and momentum of the attack.
The SPEAR system evolved after Tony realized the only way he could control his partner was by moving towards him and jamming him. When he tried to block, parry, or evade, he got nailed.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
This is what we do – exactly- when we do kumite—not bunkai, mind you, but kumite-
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
But the problem is in the way we program the sequence, that is, we punch first [our turn], then we condition to expect two quick counters [his turn] which forces us to do, what Tony Blauer advises against__ back up!
What we are doing sequentially in kumites, is giving time to our adversary to load and reload, a luxury you should take away from him as Jim [Shaolin] points out with his method.
The Blauer method _ SPEAR_ is a genetically inspired “conversion” of the flinch reflex that moves the person into the attack instead of backing away.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited April 20, 2002).]
I must have argued these points 100 times or more. It gets kind of weary after a while, much like trying to get into a room packed to the ceiling with junk.
But I will go one more time.
Both Carlos and Shaolin are trying to tell us something very critical,that gets rationalized away over and over, so be it.
Tony Blauer writes that the sequential relationship in the martial arts ‘drills’ has no basis in reality, because most tactics are based on your anticipation of a specific physical attack, and what’s worse, to anticipate and expect your attacker’s target points on your body.
Such is the nature of prearranged kumites. There is good [maybe for sparring contests], and there is bad [for self defense programming] in doing these drills. [Carlos]
Suckered punched or expecting to be hit, always ends up with the same pattern of the assailant forcing the victim to retreat by “pumping blows” and overwhelming through momentum as the victim stumbles backwards. In most fights you will be “blitz attacked” __
Tony Blauer points out that due to the flinch reflex, the behavioral paradox is that when we are in danger, we want to move away [backwards] __ your hands come up to protect your head, your weight transfers to your back leg, you close your eyes and you back away from danger__ whereas the tactical directive is to move in, as it is just about the only way to stop a close quarter physical threat.
Thus the reason I prefer the method Shaolin outlines, as it seems to be the most foolproof in neutralizing the power and momentum of the attack.
The SPEAR system evolved after Tony realized the only way he could control his partner was by moving towards him and jamming him. When he tried to block, parry, or evade, he got nailed.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Blauer_There is no way to not get hit if you maintain a distance where you allow your opponent to reload!
This is what we do – exactly- when we do kumite—not bunkai, mind you, but kumite-
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
True. Very difficult to deal with two quick punches, whether moving in, backwards or sideways, as reaction time at such close range will be at a premium.We've modified the drill somewhat, delivering two reverse punches as the attacker, making the punches very difficult to block.
But the problem is in the way we program the sequence, that is, we punch first [our turn], then we condition to expect two quick counters [his turn] which forces us to do, what Tony Blauer advises against__ back up!
What we are doing sequentially in kumites, is giving time to our adversary to load and reload, a luxury you should take away from him as Jim [Shaolin] points out with his method.
The Blauer method _ SPEAR_ is a genetically inspired “conversion” of the flinch reflex that moves the person into the attack instead of backing away.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I also happen to believe that the SPEAR system can be utilized very well in interception and taikawashi as per Toyama sensei’s method outlined above.the SPEAR nails the person as he is moving in and it creates space.
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited April 20, 2002).]
New Video
Hi Bill,
Regarding the Centerline thing: I would be happy to share any info I have on using this tactic. I would be very happy if anyone could make use of it. Here are three key elements of using the Centerline.
1. Position (structure) and (angle)
2. Energy
3. Distance
I don't know exactly what happened in your experiment so I will generalize.
Having the Centerline closed has to be in the context of gate. To simplify, upper, lower, inside, outside - all in reference to the Centerline.
First for position you can close most of it up by 'filling the room with junk' sometimes we use a Tan Sao for middle/high gate, which is similar to the San Chin position, except the San Chin position, as you say is off-Center a little - no big deal there you can adjust. For the lower gate you can use the lower leg, knee and foot.
Second is energy. Did you attack his attack or just meet it? We advocate using Forward Energy - meaning that the attacking-blocking (hate to use that second word) movements don't generally go sideways - they go forward into the opponent. This means that not only should the fist, hand and arm move into his Center but that your whole structure must move in to him as well - your whole body. In a sense you 'press' into his Center (of gravity) this is also called energy issuing in Chinese MA. You project your energy into him and create a connection. If his arm is in the way that's okay - clear and just press into him. (and hit him with that or the other hand.)
Does Uechi have a bridge punch? In other words a punch that keeps the elbow under the punch? If so it can be used for bridging. You could do a bridge exercise to develop that energy.
As for distance it must close. This means taking the whole unit of the body, including, fist, arm torso and hips and ramming it into him as he comes, of course timing is important, but never let him get his distance - ever.
Forgive me if I am mistaken but from the description of your experiment it sounds like you may have not closed the distance much if at all when you 'got a piece' of the initial attack. When he does the backfist (or whatever) you can try to attack his upper line and also move inside with your structure. You are in essense attacking his structure. We try to use the feet and legs to immobilize his lower limbs and upset his balance. Ever ride the Subway? You can think of it like you are forcing your way through a dense crowd of people as fast as possible using your stance and arm/leg position by going forward.
The way I think of it is: When he attacks he is thinking of his attack, but he is also asking you a question. If he gets no answer then he will ask another question. When he attacks and you attack back you are now asking him a question. He must now think of an answer to your question. This can stop him mentally and physically for a moment as he must adjust to this new 'question'. It is at this moment that you should go in and ask so many questions in rapid sucsession that he can answer none of them.
So, when he comes in with the backfist, or whatever, destroy it - but don't stop there, even for a nano-second - keep moving into his stucture and smother it with your lead hand pressing, legs smothering, and rear hand hitting - both hands hitting.
Although different from WC I have seen Mas Oyama do similar things when doing demos. In one demo I saw him do the guy came in with some lead attack and Oyama just stuck his hand into the guys Center, grabbed his Gi and shoved him backward and proceeded to pummel him as the guy flew backwards.
My WC impression from San Chin is that it:
1. Baits a head on Attack.
2. Creates strong outer structure.
3. The outer structure favors angulation.
4. The circle blocks favor angulation.
5. The circle steps favor angulation.
6. The circle 'blocks' issue energy.
7. The distance should be closed.
8. You should step into him.
So if I were to translate the San Chin movements from what I know in WC it would go:
As he comes in straight lead at me I step out and into him, while 'slapping' his attack to the side - I use the second circle to close off his Center from behind his elbow - pressing. I am now behind him and have my 'front' hand pressing on his arm just behind his lead elbow - my rear hand hits him. The whole thing should be done in one explosive movement. Step into him again and he goes down.
A circle is just a circle until you move forward with it. Then it becomes something quite different.
BTW: I don't see any lead/rear hands here. I know you said Uechi has a rear hand, or something like that, but is this true in the classical forms?
-------------
Just for fun:
[Try using Tan to stop an incoming attack. Tan Sao, however, does not stay in Tan Sao as the attack comes – it changes into Deem Jung or Palm (same side). As he comes in with a straight right use Tan to receive but then as it comes in roll up into and shoot a relaxed Palm as you step in and attack his upper Center (chin) and see what happens (instead of the backfist). Try this from a San Chin position keeping the other arm in Tan. Also try doing the counter a little early and late to see how the movement flow can adjust.]
If you ever want to discuss, or if I can be of any help, I would be happy to share whatever I can.
Things of importance: Body alignment, body structure, Centerline occupation, forward energy, spring energy, hand replacement, hand unity, body unity, facing, closing off facing, sticking, etc.
------------------
Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu
[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited April 20, 2002).]
Regarding the Centerline thing: I would be happy to share any info I have on using this tactic. I would be very happy if anyone could make use of it. Here are three key elements of using the Centerline.
1. Position (structure) and (angle)
2. Energy
3. Distance
I don't know exactly what happened in your experiment so I will generalize.
Having the Centerline closed has to be in the context of gate. To simplify, upper, lower, inside, outside - all in reference to the Centerline.
First for position you can close most of it up by 'filling the room with junk' sometimes we use a Tan Sao for middle/high gate, which is similar to the San Chin position, except the San Chin position, as you say is off-Center a little - no big deal there you can adjust. For the lower gate you can use the lower leg, knee and foot.
Second is energy. Did you attack his attack or just meet it? We advocate using Forward Energy - meaning that the attacking-blocking (hate to use that second word) movements don't generally go sideways - they go forward into the opponent. This means that not only should the fist, hand and arm move into his Center but that your whole structure must move in to him as well - your whole body. In a sense you 'press' into his Center (of gravity) this is also called energy issuing in Chinese MA. You project your energy into him and create a connection. If his arm is in the way that's okay - clear and just press into him. (and hit him with that or the other hand.)
Does Uechi have a bridge punch? In other words a punch that keeps the elbow under the punch? If so it can be used for bridging. You could do a bridge exercise to develop that energy.
As for distance it must close. This means taking the whole unit of the body, including, fist, arm torso and hips and ramming it into him as he comes, of course timing is important, but never let him get his distance - ever.
Forgive me if I am mistaken but from the description of your experiment it sounds like you may have not closed the distance much if at all when you 'got a piece' of the initial attack. When he does the backfist (or whatever) you can try to attack his upper line and also move inside with your structure. You are in essense attacking his structure. We try to use the feet and legs to immobilize his lower limbs and upset his balance. Ever ride the Subway? You can think of it like you are forcing your way through a dense crowd of people as fast as possible using your stance and arm/leg position by going forward.
The way I think of it is: When he attacks he is thinking of his attack, but he is also asking you a question. If he gets no answer then he will ask another question. When he attacks and you attack back you are now asking him a question. He must now think of an answer to your question. This can stop him mentally and physically for a moment as he must adjust to this new 'question'. It is at this moment that you should go in and ask so many questions in rapid sucsession that he can answer none of them.
So, when he comes in with the backfist, or whatever, destroy it - but don't stop there, even for a nano-second - keep moving into his stucture and smother it with your lead hand pressing, legs smothering, and rear hand hitting - both hands hitting.
Although different from WC I have seen Mas Oyama do similar things when doing demos. In one demo I saw him do the guy came in with some lead attack and Oyama just stuck his hand into the guys Center, grabbed his Gi and shoved him backward and proceeded to pummel him as the guy flew backwards.
My WC impression from San Chin is that it:
1. Baits a head on Attack.
2. Creates strong outer structure.
3. The outer structure favors angulation.
4. The circle blocks favor angulation.
5. The circle steps favor angulation.
6. The circle 'blocks' issue energy.
7. The distance should be closed.
8. You should step into him.
So if I were to translate the San Chin movements from what I know in WC it would go:
As he comes in straight lead at me I step out and into him, while 'slapping' his attack to the side - I use the second circle to close off his Center from behind his elbow - pressing. I am now behind him and have my 'front' hand pressing on his arm just behind his lead elbow - my rear hand hits him. The whole thing should be done in one explosive movement. Step into him again and he goes down.
A circle is just a circle until you move forward with it. Then it becomes something quite different.
BTW: I don't see any lead/rear hands here. I know you said Uechi has a rear hand, or something like that, but is this true in the classical forms?
-------------
Just for fun:
[Try using Tan to stop an incoming attack. Tan Sao, however, does not stay in Tan Sao as the attack comes – it changes into Deem Jung or Palm (same side). As he comes in with a straight right use Tan to receive but then as it comes in roll up into and shoot a relaxed Palm as you step in and attack his upper Center (chin) and see what happens (instead of the backfist). Try this from a San Chin position keeping the other arm in Tan. Also try doing the counter a little early and late to see how the movement flow can adjust.]
If you ever want to discuss, or if I can be of any help, I would be happy to share whatever I can.
Things of importance: Body alignment, body structure, Centerline occupation, forward energy, spring energy, hand replacement, hand unity, body unity, facing, closing off facing, sticking, etc.
------------------
Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu
[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited April 20, 2002).]
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
New Video
Interesting the way this dialogue is going.
Van
First... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
The reason why I brought up Blauer, Van, is because of the article in Black Belt magazine - this month I believe. I don't have it here, so I'll have to wait before quoting it. But as I recall, he talks about taking your natural response to a situation and working with it. Yes - a natural response to a suckerpunch sequence is to retreat, right? I'm not sure anyone can "program" otherwise. All is WAY too easy when we square off; there we can do all the stuff we think we will do when we don't expect to be attacked. I like to know I can do the wrong thing with my first response to the sucker sequence and still survive it. Actually you can, and that's how I like to teach an exercise like kyu kumite.
I'm a jammer from way back in my kumite, and my very first karate instructor (a Japanese) used to kick the *&%$ out of us if we backed up. When it comes to the big boys though, I I like to work in the sidestepping. Not sure if you've worked with anyone that weighs around 325 pounds; I did so several times a week for a year and lived to talk about it. Nothing broke, but I did pull my lower back once and sprained an elbow another time. I am hardly a small person, and certainly am not weak, but sometimes you just have to get off the path of that bull...
In general
As for Justin, I tried to make a point that I think was lost on the group. I'm one of the few in this discussion that actually worked with the guy - face to face - for a day. Justin subsequently was tested for godan the next day, and was awarded best candidate. And I believe it was Van that was commenting he was good because he was from the old Cambridge Street dojo.
One way or another it comes down to this - the best critique is done on the dojo floor. I give Justin a thumbs up for an ability to execute. He's a good man. Whether one likes techiques from the 70s or Y2K, execution means a lot.
Folks can get worked up about all the prearranged stuff on the video all they want; I personally didn't take it all that seriously. Maybe if this had all been done against a heavybag then people wouldn't be responding so much. I took the "defender" in these sequences as doing nothing more than offering a warm body to whack on. Heck when you fight someone, sometimes (in fact more often than not) they DO back up when you attack. And if they don't, well then you do something different. I'm rarely surprised by someone's reaction to what I do. Check out Gary Khoury's sparring CD and the "checking" exercise to understand what I'm talking about.
Jim
We're not that far apart, guy. I tend to do a lot of the things you're talking about. I was working with someone I'm prepping for a tournament just last Saturday. I wasn't particularly trying to win or anything, I just stepped in at a point to give him some different competition. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
1. Baits a head on Attack.
2. Creates strong outer structure.
3. The outer structure favors angulation.
4. The circle blocks favor angulation.
5. The circle steps favor angulation.
6. The circle 'blocks' issue energy.
7. The distance should be closed.
8. You should step into him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is true to some extent, Jim. But if you look at moves in Seisan kata, there is quite a bit of occupying of the center line. Take the triple palm movements in the beginning of Seisan; they are very much like the repeating fist motions you posted in the cineloop. Following that is an entering motion with a knee thrust. So yes, sometimes there is angulation and movement in by using "soto uke" (outside block) movements. And sometimes one executes "uchi uke" (inside block) movements to bring the energy right up the middle and into their center line of vulnerability (eyes, nose, throat, solar plexus, etc.). <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Anyhow, I am thankful for my Sil Lim Tao work, as it really opened my eyes to interpretations other than what are commonly shown in Okinawa-derived bunkai. For example, I NEVER worry when someone grabs my wrist and tries to follow with a reverse punch. Incapacitated arm? Hardly. Need to break the grip? Nope! And you probably know exactly what I am talking about. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
- Bill
Van
First... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Distance or no distance, if you allow your opponent to reload, you deserve to get beaten. This seems pretty elementary to me. Perhaps there is much presumed in this discussion that certainly doesn't apply to the way I teach or the way I think about fighting and prearranged kumite. Heck, any nerd that plays chess understands the basic concept here - any defense must include an offensive component, or it's just a matter of time before the attacker has an advantage.There is no way to not get hit if you maintain a distance where you allow your opponent to reload!
The reason why I brought up Blauer, Van, is because of the article in Black Belt magazine - this month I believe. I don't have it here, so I'll have to wait before quoting it. But as I recall, he talks about taking your natural response to a situation and working with it. Yes - a natural response to a suckerpunch sequence is to retreat, right? I'm not sure anyone can "program" otherwise. All is WAY too easy when we square off; there we can do all the stuff we think we will do when we don't expect to be attacked. I like to know I can do the wrong thing with my first response to the sucker sequence and still survive it. Actually you can, and that's how I like to teach an exercise like kyu kumite.
I'm a jammer from way back in my kumite, and my very first karate instructor (a Japanese) used to kick the *&%$ out of us if we backed up. When it comes to the big boys though, I I like to work in the sidestepping. Not sure if you've worked with anyone that weighs around 325 pounds; I did so several times a week for a year and lived to talk about it. Nothing broke, but I did pull my lower back once and sprained an elbow another time. I am hardly a small person, and certainly am not weak, but sometimes you just have to get off the path of that bull...
In general
As for Justin, I tried to make a point that I think was lost on the group. I'm one of the few in this discussion that actually worked with the guy - face to face - for a day. Justin subsequently was tested for godan the next day, and was awarded best candidate. And I believe it was Van that was commenting he was good because he was from the old Cambridge Street dojo.
One way or another it comes down to this - the best critique is done on the dojo floor. I give Justin a thumbs up for an ability to execute. He's a good man. Whether one likes techiques from the 70s or Y2K, execution means a lot.Folks can get worked up about all the prearranged stuff on the video all they want; I personally didn't take it all that seriously. Maybe if this had all been done against a heavybag then people wouldn't be responding so much. I took the "defender" in these sequences as doing nothing more than offering a warm body to whack on. Heck when you fight someone, sometimes (in fact more often than not) they DO back up when you attack. And if they don't, well then you do something different. I'm rarely surprised by someone's reaction to what I do. Check out Gary Khoury's sparring CD and the "checking" exercise to understand what I'm talking about.
Jim
We're not that far apart, guy. I tend to do a lot of the things you're talking about. I was working with someone I'm prepping for a tournament just last Saturday. I wasn't particularly trying to win or anything, I just stepped in at a point to give him some different competition. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Actually in about 5 minutes of sparring, I did that twice. I don't even realize I do things like this, and wouldn't have recalled it except for the fact that the fellow I was working with complimented me on something - twice. I then realized that I nullified his front kick by merely lifting my leg and diverting it, something that's actually straight from Uechi ryu kata. All I was really trying to was to stay in there and work him a bit. Anyhow, there must be something right going on if I do this naturally. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My WC impression from San Chin is that it:For the lower gate you can use the lower leg, knee and foot.
1. Baits a head on Attack.
2. Creates strong outer structure.
3. The outer structure favors angulation.
4. The circle blocks favor angulation.
5. The circle steps favor angulation.
6. The circle 'blocks' issue energy.
7. The distance should be closed.
8. You should step into him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is true to some extent, Jim. But if you look at moves in Seisan kata, there is quite a bit of occupying of the center line. Take the triple palm movements in the beginning of Seisan; they are very much like the repeating fist motions you posted in the cineloop. Following that is an entering motion with a knee thrust. So yes, sometimes there is angulation and movement in by using "soto uke" (outside block) movements. And sometimes one executes "uchi uke" (inside block) movements to bring the energy right up the middle and into their center line of vulnerability (eyes, nose, throat, solar plexus, etc.). <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
The body of the kata that most consider the foundation of the system - sanchin kata - is one rear-armed thrust after the next, done on alternating sides inbetween steps. One develops ambidexterity with the form, but always with a penchant towards bringing linear power from the rear. There are exceptions though. In the advanced forms, there are many elbow sequences that are done off the front arm. I tend to do all my forms both ways (regular and leftie), but most who don't do so will always want to do the elbow movements with strong side forward, and ususally from a deeper stance (after having entered the attacker's ring of defense). After having done Sil Lim Tao, it dawned on me that there are some strong parallels here to Wing Chun. There is an lateral-elbow/backfist sequence that is very much like the repeated elbow/fingerthrust sequence in your first form. There are other elbow techiques that similarly suggest (with cocked hand position) a followup attack (like an eye strike) that is never done.I don't see any lead/rear hands here. I know you said Uechi has a rear hand, or something like that, but is this true in the classical forms?
Anyhow, I am thankful for my Sil Lim Tao work, as it really opened my eyes to interpretations other than what are commonly shown in Okinawa-derived bunkai. For example, I NEVER worry when someone grabs my wrist and tries to follow with a reverse punch. Incapacitated arm? Hardly. Need to break the grip? Nope! And you probably know exactly what I am talking about.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quoteAll great stuff, Jim. BTW, were are you located?Things of importance: Body alignment, body structure, Centerline occupation, forward energy, spring energy, hand replacement, hand unity, body unity, facing, closing off facing, sticking, etc.
- Bill
New Video
Hi Bill,
I'm located in New Rochelle, about 30 minutes north of Manhattan.
Regarding Sanchin: I learned this form when I was studying with the Zen Do Kai in Johnstown, NY. They were a 'Shotokan' school but they taught Sanchin as the first kata, only, so I never did any other Uechi kata. The master there apparently did some Uechi early in his training. On an interesting side note: I watched Steve Holden test for his Godan years ago. As he started his Sanchin and open up into it the 7th Dan master walked to the other side of the room. Just as Steve was getting into his second clear move the master ran full speed at Steve and delivered a flying full power front kick to his mid-section. Yaaa-ouch! Everyone in the room gasped as Steve's face grimaced for a moment from the 'contact'. At that moment I think many of us were thinking that we never wanted a Godan.
I am not sure what you are referring to when you mentioned, the several finger thrusts in the Siu Lim Tao. Although there is a double finger thrust kind of movement about half way through the form, that is the only one I can think of that resembles a Bui Sao or Bui Jee. Most of the movements in Sui Lim Tao are Tan Sao, Fook Sao, Bong Sao, Chung Choy, Jut Sao, Deem Jung, Huen Sao and Gum Sao, Gong Sao. Bui Jee (Thrusting Fingers) is considered a somewhat advanced form movement and just about everything in the third form is for emergency use - meaning for when you screwed up (the opponent took your Center) and are trying to regain correct position - this is what the third form 'Shooting Fingers' is all about. There are lots of 'shooting fingers' although Bui Sao which looks like Bui Jee or a finger jab to the eyes is really a defensive/offensive movement used to intercept an incoming attack and/or regain the Centerline once lost and less often an eye jab. I am wondering if perhaps the form you saw was different from the one that I know taught by Yip Man and my late Sifu. Unless you are talking about Tan Sao which is done palm facing up, whereas Bui Sao is done palm facing down or the position just after the Huen Saos, which is when the hand circles and then stops palm down extended, but is then retracted.
BTW, just to clarify: In WC the Centerline is not the line that runs from the nose down through the 'center' of the body to the groin. I could not tell if this was the line you meant. In Uechi is the Centerline the same as in WC?
I am convinced that it is possible to reprogram the 'flinch response' into a shoot in response. We do it. WC trains from the inside out. Training this way seems to take care of this cause most WC people are just plain scared to be outside for any length of time. There are situations that can happen when position is so bad along with bad distance that one cannot shoot in. In this situation it may also not be possible to step back, or to the side either. In this case I have found that Bong Sao kicks in. The Bong seems to require the least dexterity and least time to deploy. Because of this I have found it to pop out in surprise situations. If we regain balance and have our wits about us again we will go in.
I have to wonder which move you meant when you were talking about the wrist grab. There are a few. Perhaps the ‘just hit him’ method? I have always tended to do a Pak Da in this situation which clears his hand and hits him almost at the same time. There is also the movement from the second form where you pull him in with his grab and side kick – the only side kick in any of the fist forms.
Jim
------------------
Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu
[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited April 22, 2002).]
I'm located in New Rochelle, about 30 minutes north of Manhattan.
Regarding Sanchin: I learned this form when I was studying with the Zen Do Kai in Johnstown, NY. They were a 'Shotokan' school but they taught Sanchin as the first kata, only, so I never did any other Uechi kata. The master there apparently did some Uechi early in his training. On an interesting side note: I watched Steve Holden test for his Godan years ago. As he started his Sanchin and open up into it the 7th Dan master walked to the other side of the room. Just as Steve was getting into his second clear move the master ran full speed at Steve and delivered a flying full power front kick to his mid-section. Yaaa-ouch! Everyone in the room gasped as Steve's face grimaced for a moment from the 'contact'. At that moment I think many of us were thinking that we never wanted a Godan.
I am not sure what you are referring to when you mentioned, the several finger thrusts in the Siu Lim Tao. Although there is a double finger thrust kind of movement about half way through the form, that is the only one I can think of that resembles a Bui Sao or Bui Jee. Most of the movements in Sui Lim Tao are Tan Sao, Fook Sao, Bong Sao, Chung Choy, Jut Sao, Deem Jung, Huen Sao and Gum Sao, Gong Sao. Bui Jee (Thrusting Fingers) is considered a somewhat advanced form movement and just about everything in the third form is for emergency use - meaning for when you screwed up (the opponent took your Center) and are trying to regain correct position - this is what the third form 'Shooting Fingers' is all about. There are lots of 'shooting fingers' although Bui Sao which looks like Bui Jee or a finger jab to the eyes is really a defensive/offensive movement used to intercept an incoming attack and/or regain the Centerline once lost and less often an eye jab. I am wondering if perhaps the form you saw was different from the one that I know taught by Yip Man and my late Sifu. Unless you are talking about Tan Sao which is done palm facing up, whereas Bui Sao is done palm facing down or the position just after the Huen Saos, which is when the hand circles and then stops palm down extended, but is then retracted.
BTW, just to clarify: In WC the Centerline is not the line that runs from the nose down through the 'center' of the body to the groin. I could not tell if this was the line you meant. In Uechi is the Centerline the same as in WC?
I am convinced that it is possible to reprogram the 'flinch response' into a shoot in response. We do it. WC trains from the inside out. Training this way seems to take care of this cause most WC people are just plain scared to be outside for any length of time. There are situations that can happen when position is so bad along with bad distance that one cannot shoot in. In this situation it may also not be possible to step back, or to the side either. In this case I have found that Bong Sao kicks in. The Bong seems to require the least dexterity and least time to deploy. Because of this I have found it to pop out in surprise situations. If we regain balance and have our wits about us again we will go in.
I have to wonder which move you meant when you were talking about the wrist grab. There are a few. Perhaps the ‘just hit him’ method? I have always tended to do a Pak Da in this situation which clears his hand and hits him almost at the same time. There is also the movement from the second form where you pull him in with his grab and side kick – the only side kick in any of the fist forms.
Jim
------------------
Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu
[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited April 22, 2002).]
New Video
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Gary would be a good one to comment as he just returned from Blauer’s certification.
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Not to say that backing up has not saved someone’s ass at times, but in general it is bad.
And as much as the sucker punch is a reality, most people want something first, thus giving out pre-strike indicators, such as we do in our kumites, which program backing up.
In our kumites we are programming to step back and to allow the opponent to reload, period. No two ways about it, that’s why those drills leave me cold.
This is the reason why I believe that the renzoku [continuous] kumite, as taught by Toyama sensei, and which involves mostly taikawashi, is a much better method to program useful response, even if there are times when sidestepping is difficult. In those instances you must program the "jam" and "twist"__
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Van Canna
Tony Blauer believes you can, and he has lots of real life situations to report where this was done successfully.Yes - a natural response to a sucker punch sequence is to retreat, right? I'm not sure anyone can "program" otherwise..
Gary would be a good one to comment as he just returned from Blauer’s certification.
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Backing up, although natural, is just plain bad. We saw some examples of that Saturday at the NHB fights, and the end result is always the same: overcome by momentum and cornered into a defensive mindset.All is WAY too easy when we square off; there we can do all the stuff we think we will do when we don't expect to be attacked.
Not to say that backing up has not saved someone’s ass at times, but in general it is bad.
And as much as the sucker punch is a reality, most people want something first, thus giving out pre-strike indicators, such as we do in our kumites, which program backing up.
In our kumites we are programming to step back and to allow the opponent to reload, period. No two ways about it, that’s why those drills leave me cold.
This is the reason why I believe that the renzoku [continuous] kumite, as taught by Toyama sensei, and which involves mostly taikawashi, is a much better method to program useful response, even if there are times when sidestepping is difficult. In those instances you must program the "jam" and "twist"__
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Van Canna
