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 Post subject: pressure points
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2002 7:00 pm 
i have a friend who studied medicine,but later became a lawyer. i asked him about pressure points and he didnt seem that keen,and said that you could find them yourself, the only one he showed me was the carotid synus? strike to the neck, i saw richard mooney do that at a seminar and i wasnt all that impressed, he said it was a light blow when he demonstrated it,but to me it looked like a good hard dig.the guy he did it to said so as well, but he didnt go down.ive seen evan pantzai s site and that does look pretty good, so im a bit confused.
is this pressure point stuff worth looking into? and also is it dangerous, i mean could you accidentaly hit the wrong place and kill or permanantly hurt someone? surely the medical profession must know a good deal about this type of thing?


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 Post subject: pressure points
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2002 1:45 am 
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Mr. Glasheen:
I had a few thoughts about the comments you made about Dr. Kelly's book. I happen to be fortunate enough to work side by side with him in the same hospital. I'll tell you that as an MD, I was greatly offended by your thoughts on our fellow DO physicians.

Dr. Kelly happens to be a perfect example of a fine, educated, humane doctor whose care for his patients is only enhanced by his osteopathic training, as evidenced by patient satisfaction and relief post-manipulation. I have spent much time observing his practice and technique, and have only been impressed by his outstanding clinical acumen and medical prowess.

Dr. Kelly as also been generous enough to take of his time to educate his fellow co-workers about both the art of dim-mak and osteopathic medicine, both of which have made quite an impression on those of us who were naive to either topic.

Working with Dr. Kelly, I have both seen and learned a great deal, and am adamant about defending his title and integrity as a physician, and a dim mak instructor.

Just curious...your posts seem to imply that you are a physician? What is your background? I see you are a medical researcher. If in medicine, have you not had an opportunity to work with DOs?


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 Post subject: pressure points
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2002 4:40 am 
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Location: Jersey City, NJ, USA
Asianmaster,
Have you read Dr Kelly's Book? I just recieved my copy and although I have not finished reading it, I am finding it simply fascinating from a medical perspective as well as a martial arts perspective.

I thought I read somewhere that Mr. Glasheen was a PhD not a physician, but I guess he will answer for himself.

Mr. Glasheen,
I enjoyed your making a point post. Interesting that I have had a similar experience with the use of single knuckles and toes as I became older.


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 Post subject: pressure points
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2002 7:47 pm 
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Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
I will incur a little bit of public and private wrath for that statement.
Given the responses of several on this thread, one could say that I also possess the gift of clairvoyance. Image In all seriousness, sometimes we moderators make strong and - heaven forbid - opinionated statements in the interest of drawing out key issues on a topic. My apologies in advance for any that take things personally. In the case of folks like Heather, she knows better, Image and will dish it right back.

Sorry about the time break in the thread; I enjoyed my holiday weekend.

Now, I will attempt to address questions raised by this thread. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
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i have a friend who studied medicine,but later became a lawyer. i asked him about pressure points and he didnt seem that keen,and said that you could find them yourself
I agree that you can find them yourself. This was the original Shaolin paradigm from which Dim Mak, kyusho, tuite, etc. evolved. The Shaolin monk learned medicine and the limited understanding of human anatomy/physiology of the time. From this knowledge base, one can both heal and do harm. Any decent modern physician can figure out where and how to strike or manipulate someone to do harm. Better yet, ask a forensic pathologist. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
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the only one he showed me was the carotid synus? strike to the neck, i saw richard mooney do that at a seminar and i wasnt all that impresse
A blow to the carotid sinus doesn't always result in a knockout. Apparently one is more vulnerable to that with age. There are actual case histories of older men knocking themselves out while using an electric shaver on the neck. But again, these are rare cases. The average person is rendered slightly less effective with a blow strictly to the sinus (for complex reasons, as the sinus contains both baroreceptors and chemoreceptors). But if you hit the neck hard enough, the whole body becomes a pressure point. Image The truth is that with a hard strike to the neck, you get force leakage to other vital areas like the brain stem and other "mission control" areas of the brain.

Speaking as a systems physiologist, the response of the body to various strikes at certain points depends a lot on the "initial conditions." A good mathematician understands what I mean when I say that. The body is complex, and its response to stimuli can be quite complex.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
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is this pressure point stuff worth looking into? and also is it dangerous, i mean could you accidentally hit the wrong place and kill or permanantly hurt someone? surely the medical profession must know a good deal about this type of thing?
In my humble opinion, it is worth looking into, but don't invest all your time, effort, and money on it. It's one small piece of the big martial picture. Yes, it is dangerous, as are all of martial arts. Yes, we can accidentally kill someone, with or without any knowledge of pressure point fighting. Not too long ago, a college student at UVa was killed in an intramural lacrosse game when he was accidentally hit in the chest with the butt of a stick. Can you say commotio cordis? It's dumb luck from an offensive point of view, but bad luck if you happen to be the victim. That's why we should have chest protectors on young kids when they spar.

As I often tell my students, training in the dojo is like working in a laboratory. We are dealing with dangerous tools, and we must handle with care at all times.

asianmaster

Welcome to the forum. It's always great to get more bright people as yourself involved in martial discussion.

I take your post very seriously. With that in mind, please take my responses to your comments and questions in the spirit in which they are intended.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Mr. Glasheen:
...Working with Dr. Kelly, I have both seen and learned a great deal, and am adamant about defending his title and integrity as a physician, and a dim mak instructor.

Just curious...your posts seem to imply that you are a physician? What is your background? I see you are a medical researcher. If in medicine, have you not had an opportunity to work with DOs?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I take your post very seriously, but yet find it very revealing.

Let me start by giving you a few details. I have a doctorate in biomedical engineering, with a specialty in an area called systems physiology. If you look in a book (several volume) like Medical Physiology (edited by Mountcastle), it will tell you a little bit about my field, what we are trained to do, and how we approach complex research problems in medicine and physiology. It's basically physiology, mathematics, and engineering wrapped together. I did some epidemiology work for my masters degree, and published some papers in that venue. I spent time during and after my Ph.D. training doing basic coronary physiology research while on the faculty of the division of cardiology at UVa until 1992. For the last ten years, I have been doing health services research for a name-brand insurance company. These days I spend most of my time with predictive modeling to study cost trends, medical outcomes, patients' propensity to consume, and physicians' propensity to treat.

Yes, I am somewhat familiar with DOs. We do standard economic and basic outcomes profiling of them in our heathplan, and pool them with other primary care specialties. If I personally knew a good one I'd go see one, and I say that with all sincerity. As an educated athlete that married an NP/bodybuilder, I have pretty special requirements when it comes to healthcare. You and the DO profession should appreciate that more than many medical specialties.

As you know, there are the good, the bad, and the ugly in ALL walks of life. Image If medicine and the healthcare system were perfect today, I'd be out of a job. And if I could do my job without help, my boss would be out of a job.

I have dan ranking in three martial arts systems, and dabble in others. I've been at this martial business for about three decades.

With that in mind, I find it fascinating how others have freely used the titles "master" and "Dr.," whereas I am referred to as "Mr. Glasheen." Why is it that I am entitled to both those titles (I have the credentials), but people refer to me as "Bill?" Why do others insist on the use of those titles (take a look at your post and other posts)? In fact...the only time I ever insist on being called "Dr. Glasheen" (I earned it, and have more years of education than most physicians) is when I am sitting across the table from some UNRULY physicians (thankfully these a-holes are in the minority) engaged in a pi$$ing contest. Once we all get over the posturing and saber rattling, then real work gets done. This is why I hate titles. Sorry...that's me. It gets in the way of doing real work. It stamps what comes after with a mark of authenticity and veracity that isn't always deserved.

I am a student of the Missouri (show me) school. I am a student of the randomized, controlled trial. I don't take thing for granted because someone with a title or a degree said so. The education and training are useful tools for attacking issues, but putting them front and center stage is confusing the moon for the finger pointing to it. I cannot possibly be offending you or your friend more than I would myself by having this attitude, because I expect as much of myself. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Dr. Kelly as also been generous enough to take of his time to educate his fellow co-workers about both the art of dim-mak and osteopathic medicine, both of which have made quite an impression on those of us who were naive to either topic.
Check around this website. You will find many highly educated professionals giving their time and effort for the love of the art.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
I had a few thoughts about the comments you made about Dr. Kelly's book.
I have not (yet) read his book. I was just dissing his website, the same way a restaurant critic nit-picks at a meal. I DID order his book. I'm obviously open-minded enough to see what he has to say. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Dr. Kelly happens to be a perfect example of a fine, educated, humane doctor whose care for his patients is only enhanced by his osteopathic training, as evidenced by patient satisfaction and relief post-manipulation. I have spent much time observing his practice and technique, and have only been impressed by his outstanding clinical acumen and medical prowess.
I am glad there are such people practicing medicine.

I will however comment that there are a number of questions I asked that never got answered. For instance what is the relationship of Earl Montaigue to any and all of the 3 parties involved? Just curious. Sorry...I always read my food labels. Image

Thank you all for your posts and your commentary. Keep it coming!

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited May 28, 2002).]


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 Post subject: pressure points
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2002 2:24 am 
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Location: Jersey City, NJ, USA
I don't understand why you ask about a relationship with Erle Montaigue. I already stated that I have no relationship with either Montaigue or Kelly.

By the way, I went back to the site and I can't seem to find any typos. Where are they? Just curious.

I don't know if this statement is going to go over too well but for the sake of a healthy debate I will proceed. (Dr) Glasheen, you seem to have a chip on your shoulders when it comes to physicians, is this possibly the result of some sort of professional jealousy?


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 Post subject: pressure points
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2002 3:37 am 
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Location: Richmond, VA
Hello Budomaster. I know Dr/Master Glasheen better than most and I can assure you that there is no 'chip' on his shoulder. He will just tell you how he feels about a subject. No smoke, mirrors or political correctness allowed.

Rich


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 Post subject: pressure points
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2002 4:05 am 
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Location: Charlottesville,VA,USA
Is there a relationship to Mr. Montaigue? My instructors have had a fair amount of contact with him and have not heard of Dr. Kelly.

BTW, I also ordered his book and it will be well dog-eared after we all read it.

Sensei/Mr./Dr./Master/Bill Glasheen wants to know why something works, how it works and wants to see it work. There are lots of us. He happens to have the training and experience to understand the real explanation.

The shoulder with the chip is not Bill's.
------------------
ted

"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke

[This message has been edited by Ted Dinwiddie (edited May 28, 2002).]


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 Post subject: pressure points
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2002 4:57 am 
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Location: Jersey City, NJ, USA
I think you took me the wrong way. I was getting at the question of whether Mr Glassheen had a bad experience or something of that nature. I in no way meant my comment in a derogatory manner. In fact of was sort of being facetious as I know that he is an upstanding martial artist. The problem with this sort of communication is that it is difficult to tell when a person is joking.


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 Post subject: pressure points
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2002 2:15 pm 
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budomaster

Put yourself in my position. I come to the net with my name out front. I don't wear my credentials. I try to be straight up.

On the other side of the fence here, I have two unknowns that I am conversing with. One is named "budomaster", and the other "asiamaster." I'm to have a casual conversation about serious stuff and presume all credentials mentioned are as they are?

In all fairness to Dr. Michael Kelly, he has yet to present himself here (although I don't really know that for sure), and I have not read his book yet. He has generated quite a bit of interest. But like all good readers of fact and fiction, the audience is hungry for some background information. At this point, we are blind men groping the elephant. Pardon us if we accidentally grab the b***s in our quest to figure out the nature of this beast. Image

'Nuff said.

I can understand how some might not want to reveal who they are in such a public forum. There are professional reputations to protect. There are private lives that some wish to keep that way.

But... Are you familiar with the ruse of the snake oil salesman? A fellow gets up on stage and talks about Dr. Whikam's Nerve Tonic. It will increase your appetite for amorous activity, make you more attractive to the opposite sex, cure your bowel problems, treat you neuralgia, and make your hemorrhoids go away, all for the low price of $49.99 a bottle. Isn't your health worth that much? But wait...buy now, and you get two bottles for the amazing low price of $69.99. "Somebody" in the audience jumps up and says "I'll buy 4!!"

Just who is this somebody?

I've seen bigger scams than this on these web pages, budomaster. The fact that I am in conversation with folks that aren't revealing their names makes me all the more suspicious.

But hey, I bought the nerve tonic. I want to take it to the lab and see what's in it. Image Who knows...this might be really good stuff!

We shall see.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
I went back to the site and I can't seem to find any typos.


Here's one.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Many have seen videotapes and seminars where a subject looses consciousness after being struck on certain points.


Dr. Kelly can be forgiven for this one. Spellcheck won't catch that. Now for a really easy exercise, go through all MY postings and see how many you can find. Image

Ted

I am ALWAYS Bill to you.

- Bill


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 Post subject: pressure points
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2002 3:01 pm 
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Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
By the way, if you think the snake oil salesman is dead (or physicians that sell such stuff don't exist), come empty the contents of my mailbox for a week! The only things I get more of these days are invitations for new credit cards.

Gee...what does that say about me? Image

I am saddened that hucksters give a noble reputation a bad name. I am saddened that I am rendered cynical by it all. I apologize to the GOOD physicians that end up "questioned" when they publish in the non-peer-reviewed venue.

- Bill


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 Post subject: pressure points
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2002 6:21 pm 
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budomaster

First of all, I think we can presume that Dr. Kelly knows we are talking about him.

Secondly, please call me Bill. And trust me - my skin is thick. As I tell my son at times, no blood, no foul.

Third, I would not invite further discussion about reputations and opinions until several of us have had a chance to read his book. Then we can chat. Image

And finally, I have a similar book by Bruce Miller on the subject - DIM MAK: The FINAL Reality! Bruce also attempts a modern medicine view of the subject. I was thinking about a side-by-side review of the two books when I finish reading Mike's book. I don't know if this is going to work because I think the scope of the two books are different (with Dr. Kelly's book being broader), but it presents an interesting challenge nonetheless.

Let's read!

- Bill


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 Post subject: pressure points
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2002 7:46 pm 
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Dr. Glasheen:
First and foremost, I would like to acknowledge your impressive resume and career accomplishments. By the accounts of those who know you, you also seem to be an honorable individual and martial artist, who speaks frankly and objectively.

Let me then go on to introduce myself as Monica Bastawros, as there is no need to shroud this conversation in secrecy. I work at the same hospital as Dr. Kelly in Long Island.

Just wanted to comment on your "snake-oil salesman" analogy... I did mention this forum to him in a recent conversation, and found him to be equally surprised that his book had drummed up such controversy about DOs, dim mak, and his presumed relationship to those posting on this site. He simply stated, in his own humble way, that his book would speak for itself. Having read his book myself, I most definitely agree.

Also, knowing Dr. Kelly, I know that his intentions in writing the book were almost solely to have the honor of contributing to the martial arts; consequently, I can assure you he would not be involved in a "snake-oil scheme," as you've implied.


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 Post subject: pressure points
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2002 8:12 pm 
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Monica

Again, please call me Bill; the posturing is done and there is work to do. Image I am awaiting my shipment; I'm going to drop by the PO Box this PM.

There are others who frequent these pages that have much more experience in this venue than I, although from a different (Chinese Medicine) perspective. And depending on Dr. Kelly's perspective, there may be reason to consult with the osteopathic domain of medicine. So we'll probably be leaning on each other a bit as we delve through the material.

And thank you for confirming the reasons for the little voice talking to me in my head. I figure that as long as I'm not engaged in long conversations with him/her, then the folks in the white jackets won't be taking me away.

- Bill


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 Post subject: pressure points
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2002 9:57 pm 
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Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
Budomaster,et al.,

The web is an interesting animal...it can be a great place to share information expediantly and globally, wheteher it is pro or con or this can be a medium to dispute theory, not to set down intangible proof...even though everyone including myself tries.

Since my name was mentioned I will post.

What you need to do is not just read about it or just watch videos, nor should you take the word of those that do not actually do it, or those that claim to, no matter what letters come before or after a name. The only conclusive way to determine for yourself, is to get hands on instruction yourself.

This week I was in England teaching and met a great guy, happened to be an Osteopath. Well we had a great time discussing the correlation of the Vegal Nerve and corresponding structures as well as the access points as they related to the pressure points.

By the way the Uechi Guys over on the other side of the pond have adopted the use of the pressure points and have turned their Kata moves and their core system drills into pressure point techniques. I witnessed 5 great KO's by them just after one year of intensive study. I know there will be rebuttal and dispute following this, but will not get to answer as tomorrow I fly back out to Sweden, Finland and Spain to teach this Art. I will post on my return as well as put up some video footage of the above mentioned accomplishments.

You need to find out for yourself and not rely on others for evaluation.

------------------
Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com

[This message has been edited by Evan Pantazi (edited May 29, 2002).]


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 Post subject: pressure points
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2002 2:34 am 
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Location: Richmond, VA
Hello Evan, Bill and the rest. Regarding pressure points, I have been training with the USMC Martial Arts program for the last month, and pressure points are emphasized. They are very practical and call them for the nerve targeted. These points are used to counter everything from chokes to the mount and guard position when grappling. And, when they apply them, they apply them for effect. I was really pleased to see them integrated into the program.

Rich


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