Birdbrained ideas

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Bill Glasheen
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Birdbrained ideas

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Evan and Van

We have a problem...

Did you folks read what Ian wrote above? He described the classic double-blinded randomized, controlled trial. It is the gold standard in medicine (and other branches of science and agriculture) for proving the intrinsic worth of a technique or substance.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Someone that actually does Kyusho...and not just theorize, but works KO's, should apply it.
What you are potentially describing is an "unblinded" test. Then it doesn't mean squat. If uke "expects" to be knocked out because uke knows that uke is getting "the good stuff", then uke is not blinded. There is no way to know how much of uke's response is due to being eager to please, having psychological faith in the attack, etc. If tori "expects" to knock the person out because tori knows he is giving "the good stuff", then tori is not blinded. Tori may consciously or unconsciously do more because he knows this thing works and so he will do what it takes.

You'd never get something like that published in a peer-reviewed journal. Nobody would believe you.

The goal is to find if there is any intrinsic value to the technique, and not evaluate the tori's ability to land a good one on someone irrespective of the point, angle of attack, degree of penetration, or sequence. If it's THAT difficult to teach to someone, one should step back and reflect a bit.

I understand that one must have a certain level of competency to do most things in life. Medicine understands that it takes an MD to practice medicine. Still, Eli Lilly cannot require that only Eli Lilly scientists give the drug that they are testing. They'd never get their results published. They'd never get FDA approval. They'd never get past our technology review panel. But consider that pharmaceutical companies have been subjecting their new drugs to double-blinded RCTs on a regular basis, along with toxicology tests. And consider that the pharmaceutical industry has been making more money than any other sector of the economy in the last two decades. If they can do it, why can't those that teach kyusho?

THINK!!!

There are ways. One shouldn't try to bite off too much with one test. One shouldn't try to prove the world with one test. It's best to take one thing at a time.

One that I have thought of is proving the concept of sequential striking. What would you say to having a controlled study where a series of points were struck, but in different orders. Sequence A is not expected to produce a result. Sequence B is. Person goes from room 1 to room 2 to room 3. In each room is a person that knows how to strike a point, but they do not know what is being tested. They are told "hit here" or "press here." They know the relevance of the point, but do not know what came before or will come after. The recipient doesn't know either. Ideally Sequence A finishes with the same technique as Sequence B, but the pattern in Sequence B is known to facilitate the response of the final attack.

THAT would past the muster of a DB, RCT.

- Bill
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Birdbrained ideas

Post by Bill Glasheen »

A few things I would add to the above.

1) Folks would be randomly assigned to one group (control) or another (the good stuff).

2) Enough folks are in each group (probably at least 6 per group) to account for any issues (too numerous to mention). This is standard experimental design.

3) There are "process" measures taken. The thing I like about Michael Kelly's book is that he defines what is going on. Therefore we could measure the process (lowered heart rate, lowered blood pressure) even if folks weren't always knocked out. Until someone can define chi and tell me when it is on or off, then measuring chi flow interruption is out of the picture.

4) I'm frankly not all that wild about knocking out a whole bunch of people. If you folks think we can come up with enough volunteers, then that's fine. But the subjects can't be trained kyusho practitioners. They would know what to expect, so they are by definition unblinded. Short of that, one could certainly assess other outcome measures like pain, mental alertness, etc. Give us enough time and I can dig up a standardized survey instrument in the literature.

5) IF we can get our act together quickly enough, I MAY be able to come to camp with a laptop and some SAS software. We could run the results through and have statistical tests by the end of the day. For simple designs, we could probably do the statistics right out of MS Excel.

- Bill
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Post by gmattson »

Bill:

I was thinking of something similar, but would allow tester to be a kyusho expert:

Student doesn't know what effect the experiment will have, enters room where kyusho expert draws a card in a two colored deck. Red and the technique is valid, Black and a non-kyusho series of movements are applied.

The only difficulty with this is that a kyusho expert might unwittingly give signs to reinforce a positive or negative effect. Obviously it would be better for the tester to be taught movements, not knowing what effect the technique might have. However, after the first KO, the person would quickly learn that what he/she was doing should KO the Uke. In effect, after the first test the tester would no longer be "blind".

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jorvik

Birdbrained ideas

Post by jorvik »

just a thought.
why can't you blindfold the volunteers, so that they don't know who is going to hit them? you could also put earguards on them, and tell them, prior to the experiment that they would be sequentially struck by a kyusho expert, a novice or a trained shiatsu practitioner,but that they would not be told which it was, and that there were 3 possible outcomes. unconsiousness, nothing, or mild euphoria.then see how they react
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Post by gmattson »

This would also eliminate much of a possible placibo effect. Good idea.

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Birdbrained ideas

Post by Bill Glasheen »

"Blinding" is a figure of speech. The subject must not know whether or not he or she has received the good stuff or dummy stuff. A kyusho practitioner would get hit here, and there, and then there, and think "Oh...that follows cycle of destruction. Good one!!" That individual - whether blindfolded or not - would not be "blinded."

The bad guy on the street who knows nothing of your stuff is blinded. The bad guy has an agenda, and doesn't know he should act a certain way when hit a certain way. Frankly I used to go through sparring classes as a kid and come home feeling great - with marks all over my body, not even remembering where they came from. That's the way real fights go.

If the technique is better than control in a properly-designed study, then it has a good chance of working against an uncooperative opponent.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited June 28, 2002).]
jorvik

Birdbrained ideas

Post by jorvik »

quote
"Blinding" is a figure of speech. The subject must not know whether or not he or she has received the good stuff or dummy stuff"

I didnt think that you meant" blinding " in a literal sense, but that you wanted an unbiased view-I assumed that you wouldnt be using kyusho people as subjects.-
scientific people, like yourself, can go to extrordinary lengths, even out-think a problem, to be unbiased.
I think this would be a good test for those "no touch" knockdowns as well.the subjects would be a bit disorientated, by sensory deprivation, that could be a good or bad thing.they would certainly need to think hard to predict a response. but anyway mr.Glasheen, your the expert, its your bread and butter, just thought of the obvious.
then again, suppose you already new the outcome? I mean, Ian gave an excellent definition of what a pressure point is on another thread, we already know that some things such as the temple, solar-plexus etc are pressure points, what you are testing for is the unlikely, and the exotic especially if you use all the tcm terms.what result would you expect if you hit them all in a well known "pressure point" you would expect a knockout every time, and fairly quickly at that.
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Post by gmattson »

Bruce Siddle has been working with pressure points for quite a few years. He has documented points that medical experts agree will cause a KO. Jim Maloney has been using them at camp since the early 80s. Jack Summers has been teaching "pain compliance" pressure points on arms, legs and other points of the body since the 60s. Anyone attending a Sensei Nakahodo class understands that most of us have pressure points. They are well known and pretty much accepted. As these points are used in kyusho, most will agree, they are effective. (Although a small percentage of people will not react to any point strikes/manipulation.)

What we are trying to test, are those KOs that rely on multiple point strikes to areas not already commonly accepted as KO points.

We are especially interested in some of the hundreds of "new" KOs, which use very light pressure and/or manipulation of body spots and/or no touch movements.

No question basic kyusho works. The point of all this is to determine where the boundries of effectiveness lie (those techniques that have a chance of working on the street) and at what juncture the mind of the believer takes over. (Where the technique will only work on someone in a seminar)

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Birdbrained ideas

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Beautifully stated.

I am not a curmudgeon here. I - like George - am interested in advancing the art past the obvious. If I get whacked in the jaw, I will stand a good chance of being knocked out, or at least partially incapacitated. If I get hit in the gut, I stand a good chance of having my diaphram spasm (the wind knocked out of me). If I get hit in the testicles, I will double up in pain (unless drugged or psychotic). A little more interesting here...if you smash or burn my right hand, I will pull the right hand back and thrust the left one out.

Now what??

I think Evan's doing some interesting stuff. What's effective in an uncooperative model, and what only works in the dojo for a variety of reasons (interesting and uninteresting)?

I have a personal bias that Michael Kelly's work will get us on the right path. We can create hypotheses based upon known principles of physiology. The hypothesis should be "interesting" (e.g. manipulating point A first will make the hit to point B more "effective" because... And point A is commonly within reach in most attacks).

The no-touch stuff...I don't know. I have to look at George's e-mail. If it "works" and we can't explain why it will work a priori, then what have we learned? Sound fighting is based on sound principles that can be applied in a variety of settings. A parlor trick isn't going to help you when "the unknown attack" comes your way.

I'll get back with you on that e-mail, George.

- Bill
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Post by gmattson »

OK... Bill more or less (in a private email) said we should attempt to be positive in our study and not take on something that we know will fail. (Like the Sifu Mooney no-touch test) Therefore Bill doesn't feel we should test the technique recommended to us because the 2nd part of the technique involves passing the hand over (without touching) an area and in doing this, coupled with the first manipulation, create the KO.

I feel differently. If part of kyusho involves no-touch techniques and people are being sold on the idea that this works, then it MUST be tested.

I don't know that the technique submitted will or will not work under controlled test conditions. If Bill feels it won't, then fine, lets do two tests. One that Bill feels will work and one that Bill feels won't work.

What Bill or I believes in won't make any difference before or during the test, but the results will make a difference to me and perhaps others.

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Post by gmattson »

KOs aren't necessary to measure affect. We can video the Uke during technique, plus a post test interview plus other medical measurements mentioned by you, would suffice.

I really like the technique submitted, since on the first part of the technique, only pressure is applied. The second part is accomplished with no contact!!! This type of test should reduce the amount of actual trauma caused to Uke.

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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Potential problems here. There may be something to work with.

We really cannot have any of the subjects know what the "correct" behavior is.

Can the first technique be done by another person? What is different between control and tested technique? We'd need to talk offline about it.

- Bill
jorvik

Birdbrained ideas

Post by jorvik »

quote
"I feel differently. If part of kyusho involves no-touch techniques and people are being sold on the idea that this works, then it MUST be tested."

I understand more fully now, why Mr.Matteson
was supportive of using a blindfold.This would eliminate any influence in the no-touch knockout.
I am a martial artist ( not particularly intelligent, and certainly not well educated) my interest is purely martial.there is the possibility here, that you only look at the knockout from a purely physical standpoint, and that is very good.What we all want basically.

However, there is another perspective that we may ignore completely that of "influence" which, in the end may prove more beneficial.There are people who can control wild animals, or at least, stay them, by the power of ......?...their personality...why do dogs/cats feel attracted to some people?

look at somebody like hitler( I know this is a pretty negative example, and I dont support him in any way) he could control people, sociology books describe him and that type of person ( include Jesus, on this ) as "charismatic"
somebody who can knock somebody down by "influence" well thats pretty hard to beat....ancient samurai believed that somebody who could stop somebody in their tracks had power....greater than this was to stop somebody and have them crack up laughing!!!
to quote laozhou
" I do not seek to walk in the footsteps of great men.I seek ,what they sought".
so really i guess that what I want is results..to be quite frank ..if I could knock somebody out, just because they believed I could that would be much better than having to strike them at all... I realise how difficult this must be,to test, I think that as well as Mr.Glasheen( a medical scientist) to truly test this stuff, maybe you'd need a psychologist or psychiatrist as well..

in any event, I wish you every success.
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Post by Evan Pantazi »

Would someone email the persons name that came up with the technique privately to me?

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Post by gmattson »

Hi Evan:

I don't wish to get anyone in trouble with your organization for sharing this KO with us, but will e-mail a description of the two stage KO to you for comment.

The person is a legitimate teacher of Kyusho with advanced dan ranking from Sensei Dillman. A video of a KO was also included, which demonstrated the techniques clearly.

If the individual wishes to be identified, I'm sure he will contact you.

This teacher absolutely believes this technique works and also believes that we can KO someone easily by following the instructions.

I don't find this example much different than what appears to be a common belief by many kyusho students and teachers. Aside from questioning the validity of this particular KO, I wonder about the apparent ease that students and seminar attendees believe this and similar knowledge can be imparted and more importantly, the implied effectiveness of such techniques in a real fight.

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[This message has been edited by gmattson (edited June 30, 2002).]
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