Crime and Punishment - NBC - July 7, 2002

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Jul 08, 2002 3:49 pm

I'm wondering how many watched the summer version of Crime and Punishment. This series is usually fiction, about crimes, the villains, and the people who prosecute them. However this summer, NBC is doing a little experiment where they are following real prosecutors both outside of and in real courtrooms on real cases.

I cannot find any internet cataloguing of old shows, so can't help out on the name of this last show. But a number of things struck me about this last one. I'll give a run down of some of the highlights.

* A young woman went out and had 4 drinks at a bar in the LA area. She was quite nice looking (not stunning, but naturally beautiful), and a lab tech at a local military hospital.

* She walked back (alone) towards her car in a parking garage, and got lost.

* A van with two individuals in it offered a ride. After the second attempt, she agreed to get in.

* The two began driving around. The woman could not get them to go to her car. When the driver stopped at an apartment, the other fellow began to kiss and fondle her. At one point he unzipped her pants and penetrated her with his finger.

* Eventually the driver dropped the two off in a dark, public area. The woman dialed 411 on her cell phone for transportation, and the defendant hit the woman in the jaw hard enough to break it and knock her down. He then told her not to make him hurt her any more.

* From that point on, the woman (sobbing) followed the man around and pretty much did whatever he wanted. She was raped several times through the night in various public places.

* The man had a fairly long criminal record (the details weren't brought out).

* During the court case, the defendants attorney brought out the following details: 1) She was not wearing panties, and military people don't do that, 2) She had studied martial arts and should have incapacitated the man with a finger strike to the eye, and 3) Did a rather disturbing demo in the closing arguments where he attempted to thread a pencil through his wedding ring that was dangling from a thread.

* The defendant maintained all along that it was consensual sex. There was no argument that he indeed had sex with her (consensual or not), as the man ejaculated (at least once) and the sex was unprotected. DNA pretty much nailed him as the individual that had sex with her that night. He maintained that he was doing her a favor because a previous man had dumped her and she was crying. He maintained that - after a night of passion - she got angry at the end because he couldn't get it up any more. The strike was an accident because she allegedly attacked him for not taking her where she wanted to go, and he reflexively hit her back. She allegedly apologized, said it was no problem, and the lovemaking began shortly thereafter.

* The gentleman was convicted of kidnapping, rape, and assault, and got 50 years to life. In the sentencing hearing, it was revealed that the woman had a steel plate put in her jaw to reconstruct it, and she had permanently lost feeling in part of her lower face from nerve damage (actually common after jaw surgery).

A number of things disturbed me about this.

1) The defendant’s attorney insisted the woman should have been able to take care of herself because she was much taller than the defendant and knew martial arts.

2) The woman had a cell phone with her, and only thought to use it after being in WAY too deep, and then again at the end of the night.

3) It was clear to me that the woman was severely compromised by being alone and very drunk. It also occurred to me (later on and not mentioned in the program) that she may have been afraid to call the authorities when the men began asking to give her a ride because she may have been legally too drunk to drive and wouldn't get much sympathy from the police (once again, compromising herself). The first person she called after the whole thing was over was a friend (not the police, not for medical help...).

4) All through the trial, it became apparent that this woman was way too polite. She was even compliant in the hands of the defense attorney, when perfectly sober. Perhaps the one thing that saved her in the eyes of the jury was her air of vulnerability (never mind a potential Mexican vs. white girl thing...).

5) In spite of it all, she survived and put the man in prison.

Comments?

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited July 08, 2002).]

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:12 pm

all the martial arts training in the world cant save you from bad judgement .

Colleen · Post by **Colleen** » Mon Jul 08, 2002 8:42 pm

I haven't seen the show, so I'll have to go off what you've written here. There are so many things which are wrong with what you wrote (the scenario, not your writings), it's hard to decide to where to begin. It makes me think of Jodi Foster in The Accused. (I think that's the name of the movie) That movie really disturbed me.

I just hope that this 'real tv' show doesn't convey to people that they will be crucified for bad judgement if they seek justice.

By the way, I had a look NBC's website for Crime and Punishment, clicked on the Pictures button...they all look entirely too Hollywood, I wonder how 'real' this real TV is?

[This message has been edited by Colleen (edited July 08, 2002).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Jul 08, 2002 10:12 pm

Colleen

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I had a look NBC's website for Crime and Punishment, clicked on the Pictures button...they all look entirely too Hollywood, I wonder how 'real' this real TV is?

The show that started it all was very Hollywood and all fiction. The experimental summer series is completely passive on the part of the TV folks. They only film the prosecutor discussions before/during/after trial and the courtroom scenes themselves. There's no narrative or interviewer dialogue (absolutely zero) as in Dateline's courtroom show. There's no sanctimonious preaching from the judge as in Judge Judy (in fact, you RARELY hear from or see the judge). There appears to be little staging for the camera. The only thing TV does that's worth mentioning is that they edit for brevity, and they know the result before doing the editing.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

There are so many things which are wrong ..., it's hard to decide to where to begin.

My feelings exactly. The whole episode disturbed me from beginning to end. I tried to cover all the points that bothered me the most, without adding too much of my true feelings. I only added the presumption of guilt as the verdicts were already rendered and the evidence (direct and circumstantial) was so strong. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I just hope that this 'real tv' show doesn't convey to people that they will be crucified for bad judgement if they seek justice.

Actually what's both bad and good about it is that rape victims or future rape victims can see EXACTLY what they face in the courtroom. It isn't pretty. But considering that the only case they've shown (so far) is one where the defendant was found guilty on all charges and given a stiff sentence, I'd say that the overall effect was positive.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Jul 08, 2002 11:20 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

There are so many things which are wrong...

Yes...

The shower scene on Dana's forum is all hypothetical. Great for entertainment. That one started with a single mistake - leaving the front door open. Real situations often degenerate quickly from there due to psychological breakdowns on the part of the victim. At what point(s) can you recover and get back in the game?

Here's the ugly reality in ONE anecdote. The truth is that most attack situations are riddled with bad choices and bad mistakes. We are all such wonderful Monday morning quarterbacks. Twenty-twenty hindsight, they say. What counts in the end is that the individual survives and exacts revenge, no?

The many armchair experts on these pages (I don't exclude myself if I were a woman) may not fair much better in a similar situation (once the first few bad choices were made). Have we been paying attention to the lessons of stress, or do we still maintain our own fantasies?

This one was FAR from pretty. Where do you start? What could have been done better? Was this a good outcome? What would have happened with different choices (other than the obvious ones in the beginning)?

Maybe this one is a bit too painful and personal to consider in detail. But then again, most attack situations I know of are far from made-for-prime-time material.

- Bill

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Mon Jul 08, 2002 11:25 pm

I dont think that considering what could be done differently except for the first few bad choices is really constructive , thats the point we get into delusion , the fact is the those first few choices are crucial , thats what counts , Once you surrender control to luck you cant get it back except by luck period .

This is what we must accept if we are serious about self defence , the what ifs are chances nothing more , but making sure you are safe and in a secure enviroment ,and using good judgement increase your chances of survival far more than however many years you spent in the dojo , or how extra ong is your blackbelt .

sure we all make mistakes , but at what point is carelessness self delusion.

would you put yourself at more risk because you are a martial artist ? , should you know better ?

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 12:56 am

Excellent points.

Colleen · Post by **Colleen** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 7:51 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What counts in the end is that the individual survives and exacts revenge, no?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Revenge/justice can't always be exacted, unfortunately. What if the attacker was a white, middle class male instead of a Mexican? Wealthy and an important man of the community? What if he was someone she knew and went on a date with and he raped her after the date. What if he never struck her and broke her jaw? Yes, they had sex. Was it consensual? Then it comes down to a he-said, she-said scenario. Who has more credibility.

I was thinking about it last night and honestly, I don't know if I'd be strong enough to go through the system to obtain justice. Then again, I hope to never find out. Hearing that only one in fourteen reported cases of rape receives a conviction left me a bit disheartened (statistics for England and Wales). Having to go to the hospitial to obtain evidence, interviewed by the police, interviewed by the lawyers, having to tell a whole jury of people about an incredibly horrible episode in your life, and then having the defense lawyer taking stabs at you anyway he could -- dredging up anything he could come up with to undermind you. Being drug through all of that, I don't know if I could do it.

Then again, this is just arm-chair quarterbacking, as Bill said. I don't know if I'd rise up strong in the aftermath of an attack or crumble and hid.

[This message has been edited by Colleen (edited July 09, 2002).]

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 12:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Real situations often degenerate quickly from there due to psychological breakdowns on the part of the victim. At what point(s) can you recover and get back in the game?

This is an important point missed in all the training we do, all the way from Okinawa on down.
There is no history that I know of addressing this aspect in the training handed down to us by the Okinawan masters, unless it is something built in the kata and conditioning. Maybe I am missing something, if so someone please enlighten me.

And if anybody thinks there is no psychological breakdown in one form or another during a survival situation, whether you are successful or not, then we are in denial again.

In one of my rape cases I handled for investigation and settlement on behalf of a building owner, a rapist allegedly got into the woman’s bedroom through a window with a defective lock.

The woman awakened finding a strange man standing by her bed and masturbating over her. He had a big knife in the other hand.

She was raped seven times.

At the trial she testified that her body and mind went into paralysis with fear, she became a clump of jelly whimpering through the ordeal.

In another case, the ex boyfriend of a young woman, waited in the darkness for the new boyfriend to come down the stairs.

He then proceeded to slice his throat after a vicious struggle during which the victim was screaming for help in the apartment as he tumbled down the stairs. He was a trained martial artist.

One of the witnesses told me he had a shotgun handy but was unable to load it with his trembling hands and he remained frozen by the death screams as the boy’s throat was cut.

You are a martial artist, trained by the Okinawan masters or some other master. Do you think you could do better? Why?

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Van Canna

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 2:50 pm

My first martial arts experience was one that I am still trying to digest. To some extent it seemed like abuse; in other ways, I think there was an important message.

The fellow who taught me was a Japanese with a fairly serious martial background. He had this way of playing head games along with the waza he taught in class. For instance I can remember one class where a "lazy" student was getting kicked from one end of the room to the next. He got kicked and knocked into a row of folding chairs. He got up with his back turned to my instructor, and he promptly knocked him on his duff again, into the sprawl of chairs.

After 10 minutes or so of this, I heard "Mr. Glasheeen, you're next!" Something inside told me that I was going to get the *^&% knocked out of me, but backing down wasn't the right thing to do. Yes, he got the better of me (and could have on his worst day), but I came out of it with little in the way of bumps and bruises. When we finally bowed, he had a twinkle in his eye.

And you know what? That's the way the world is. Last fall something went VERY wrong with a software system at work because a vendor made a customer-requested change and it messed things up in our business. I was the data owner; it happened on my watch. The wrath of Khan came down on me (I cannot begin to tell you...). All the while, I was at work with pneumonia (STILL don't know how I got it...). I didn't - I couldn't - miss a single day of work. The world doesn't seem to care when things are going rough. If you get knocked on your duff, you may get kicked while you're down feeling sorry for yourself. It *****...but that's how bad it can get. Predator personalities are drawn to the vulnerable like yellowjackets to sugar.

Back to my first karate instructor... I occasionally look back at those experiences, and wonder about the value. I think one walks a fine line between training and abuse. I know the military deals with this all the time. Certainly the most important thing is that the instructor who would institute training like this be psychologically fit. I wish I could say that was the case in my own experiences.

I wonder about what kind of person benefits from training like that, or where one can learn it. Did I survive a few years of training where I always had a sick feeling in my stomach because of the kind of person I was (in high school I used to "train through" injuries, only to make them worse), or did the training make me and others better? I don't have the answers, but I wonder.

Is there a way to temper the soul the way we temper our forearms and shins in kotekitae and ashikitae? I'm convinced that there is. I'm convinced that - like good kotekitae - there is an ideal dose/response that produces a better warrior as opposed to a better ego. Can the mind taste a few drops of Tabasco every day, and learn to crave the burn? Can we control the training the way we control what we can easily see, feel, and taste?

I do know that some folks have it, and some don't. And knowing how bad it can feel when you are down, I am reluctant to point to failure and say "I could have done better." Being an ideal physical specimen and/or a great athlete doesn't necessarily make a great warrior. There's more.

- Bill

Alan K · Post by **Alan K** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 3:20 pm

Van, sensei posed the following quote:

"Real situations often degenerate quickly from there due to psychological breakdowns on the part of the victim. At what point(s) can you recover and get back in the game?"

Back in the early 1970's I can remember, at GEM's Newton Dojo, that we conducted classes for women in self-defense because of a demand for this type of instruction, generated by escallation of rape and violence to women. Some of you may recall the incidents which took place in New York City when women were raped in door-ways and passers-by would turn the other way.

The instructions were simple, with the hope that the students would join traditional Uechi classes.

There is no doubt that students who were willing to participate in all the classes came away with a feeling of more confidence.

What suprised and disturbed me, was when it came to the teaching of a particular defense to a rape, many students were mortified or horrified at an effective defense.

The instruction basically was, that if thrown or forced down, pretend to enjoy it by caressing the man's face, and suddenly with quick and great force, jamb your thumbs deep into his eye sockets.

Despite the motivation of being assured that many rape cases end in the murder of the victim, few could honestly say that they could do this in any circumstances.

I could only hope that under real conditions, that these students could call upon some of the most rudimentary techniques that they learned.

Could these psychological breakdowns ever be overcome by more more physical and mental training and conditioning?

Alan K

david · Post by **david** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 10:26 am

In some hairy situations, I found myself committing to dying and taking the bastard(s)with me. The thought of taking the other out rather than surviving was enough.

david

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 11:17 am

quote
"You are a martial artist, trained by the Okinawan masters or some other master. Do you think you could do better? Why?"

I don't think it matters were they come from and the term "master" is a bit overused...don't misunderstand me on this I have the greatest respect for some of the Okinawans named on these forums...but I remember speaking to a man who had trained under Morihei Ueshiba in Japan..and later taught Aikido to the Hong Kong police force...he would often relate how when Japanese "masters " came to my country they would get beaten up by 18 year old lads..because they just didn't have "it", not just aikido men but karate also.
with referance to Bill Glasheen's comment the first karate "master" that I trained under had a Japanese teacher come to his club...whereupon the Japanese proceeded to kick and punch the lower grades...my teacher went over to him....head butted, him then bodily picked him and threw him over a table..telling him to get out.In that club if you hit somebody, they had every right to hit you back, respect was always mutual..and -you may be surprised by this, it developed great fighting spirit- youngsters would come in weak and scrawny and leave as strong empowered young men ( not bullies) at the beginning of every lesson we would repeat the dojo kun, we train to develop, character,sincerity, effort, etiquette and above all else...self control.I remember years later when I went to another dojo..wearing a white belt..I sparred with a black belt with a coupla dans..and he kept on making contact...I told him to stop, which he didn't..the look of surprise on his face when I gave him a big right hook and sent him to dream land..
I think that you can develop spirit..but it isnt just that..it's suddenly finding yourself in that situation that you had trained for ..and thinking oh my gosh.
A lot of our experience comes from the media T.V. etc...Prostitutes do not look like Julia Roberts did in "pretty Woman", drug dealers do not look like Mel Gibson. They are usually less gifted intellectually and morally than the guests on the "Springer Show".Perhaps Mr.Canna could share his experiences here..but the closest that I've seen to a real gangster looked like Joe Pescci ( don't think Ive spelt that right) and behaved accordingly.
Also, there are our expectations...I remember reading about the headmaster of the "Katori-shinto ryu...when he first approached his teacher to learn the art, he asked "Master..please teach me how to die..well!!"

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:20 pm

Jorvick,

Good post.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I don't think it matters were they come from and the term "master" is a bit overused.

Unfortunately this “overuse” comes about for an individual need of validation and self-aggrandizing. Most of the times the actual master is not aware of what his student[s] is spouting out there.

Then there are the real “##### masters” as well. The ones who will hurt their students taking advantage of the fact the students are too polite or intimidated to hit them back.

And when one “master” loses a sparring match, as an example, he will say it was not a real fight, because if it were he would have killed the opponent. Like a real fight would happen the way the master thinks it would. More delusions. In a real fight he might get knifed or shot or taken out by multiple opponents.

GEM sensei might recall this incident at his famous Dojo in Boston in the sixties:

Some Japanese “master” from some style shows up one night with one of his students who was a good fighter to participate in my sparring class that I ran in those days.

The two of them proceed to hit students full power, also with shutos in the throat.

Additionally, this High-ranking ##### has the temerity to tell GEM sensei that he was to take over the dojo now because he was the purveyor of “true karate” and we were just a bunch of fledglings.

Once his intentions were clear, we went to work on him and his deluded students.

So we gave them a taste of their own medicine. Arrogant and pompous as they were, they got their clock cleaned pretty convincingly by our seniors who were regional and national champions.

After they realized they too could be slammed down knocked out and bleeding, they disappeared.

There is one particular “master” in Okinawa who was cut from the same cloth, and enjoyed hurting our American students to show his superiority and contempt for us. Strangely though, he never would really put it on the line when invited to do so.

Imagine standing in sanchin position and have this guy slam his palms down on your extended fingers with the intent of breaking them, which he did to a few.

A head butt in response was in the wings for him had he tried it with certain seniors. Screw the respect at that point. Respect goes both ways.

Totally disgusting.

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Van Canna

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Wed Jul 10, 2002 3:03 pm

I think it all comes back to self-respect.

The message I get from Bill's initial post and all the subsequent ones is that somebody either allows themselves to be highjacked or they don't.

Yes, we can all be surprised, caught unawares and abused, injured, and killed. We can also recover somewhat during or even after an incident, assuming we live, by mustering sincere outrage at our treatment. People succeed because they keep getting up after they are knocked down.

Nobody has the right to do any of us bodily harm or spiritual harm or psychological harm. We may not be able to stop them, but we should not LET them.

My view is that one is better off dead from resisting than alive after submitting. If one has submitted initially, it is never too late to start finding a way to fight back. Maybe by recovering in the middle of the fight and maybe by seeing the whole thing through the legal ordeal. It might even mean starting an advocacy group of some sort later in life to help recover from an earlier trauma and help others with similar situations.

Abusive bosses get away with it because employees need their jobs and feel they cannot resist. Spousal abuse situations seem to have some of the same factors involved (Ian?). POWs have endured savage torture and suffered health problems for the rest of their lives rather than submit.

-Read "The Hanoi Commitment" by Captain Jim Mulligan.-

Does this make any sense? It just kind of leapt out at me from this succession of posts.

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ted

"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke