Between a rock and a hard place

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Jun 03, 2002 8:51 pm

The issue of student violence against teachers isn't new. Teachers "defending" themselves is always a problem. Two incidents in the last week created a big ripple in the local community. Why???

Read the following article in the local paper. Also, check out the result of the readers' poll.

Please excuse the fact that the connect address MAY change in the first 24 hours, and so the link will disappear until I find the second address assigned to it.

Teachers striking back?

- Bill

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Mon Jun 03, 2002 9:34 pm

hi mr glasheen
the news here in England is even worse. a social worker has just resigned, with a large pay cheque.
this all came about because she had asked the widow of a headmaster- who had been stabbed to death by a pupil- to apologise to the pupil. she had apparently upset him by saying that he showed no remorse for the murder?????
the poor widow took this straight to the newspapers, hence the resignation.
madness!!

CANDANeh · Post by **CANDANeh** » Tue Jun 04, 2002 12:11 am

Unbelievable the support the teacher gets for her actions esp. considering the biting response (some have trouble with that..I don`t). Seems to indicate that the public supports the underdog. Wasn`t there to witness the event but it sure seems she was fighting for her life and if I am correct..bravo on her response

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Tue Jun 04, 2002 3:33 am

Next we should talk about violence upon the sensei by some of his students.

Don't think it has happened?

------------------
Van Canna

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jun 04, 2002 4:23 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Van Canna:

Don't think it has happened?
--------------------------------------

Hard to imagine my wanting to take a shot at Mr. M

I couldn't even think of attacking my past teacher. I would expect to be made an example of if I did.(actually I would have been pleased to survive

) Most students who get physical with sensei should pay the price.

If sensei is no longer possessing the physical skills to defeat the student I would hope that the other student's would deal with the student...........

Then again Van I have witnessed much violence in the school system. Back in the corporal punishment days. Teachers striking students and vice versa. Both students and teacher were sometimes out of control.

In the good old days the other students rallied to subdue the agressor who was deemed out of line.(teacher or student)Unfortunately in todays world most stand back and watch.

Laird

[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited June 03, 2002).]

student · Post by **student** » Tue Jun 04, 2002 12:05 pm

In my short but recent experience as a substitute teacher I have had one child who brought a play balisong (butterfly knife) to school, and another one, barely taller than my elbow, threaten to slap me!

The guidelines issued me were very clear: no physical contact with the children.

However, we were also responsible for the children's safety. Not so clear any more, are they?

My own mind set was to avoid contact unless another child's physical safety was at stake. That's mind set; nothing ever evolved to the physical level on my watch, and I don't miss the opportunity to have a war story one bit.

student

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Jun 04, 2002 3:36 pm

What you folks are missing outside the Richmond TV viewing area are the repeated camera shots of the student with the clear, bruised impression of a human bite on her face. I often wonder what former teacher victims think when they see that bite. I wonder what students must think now that they see that bite.

Yes, we must not judge without all the facts. Yes, teachers can abuse students. I survived 7 years of parochial school, getting regular corporal punishment via the ruler from frustrated nuns. When I heard the album George Carlin, Class Clown with its parody of Catholic education, I laughed my butt off. Mrs. Jones, we can't understand why Johnny's penmanship is getting so bad!!

But take a look at the response of fellow teachers.

Teachers Tell of Student Assaults, Ask for Help

Understand that Richmond is a typical, divided city/suburban area. The once Capitol of the Confederacy experienced the flight of the privileged class, and what is left of the city proper is rather sad. Much of the new, vibrant industry (including my own) actually resides in the country surrounding the city, while the city council concerns itself with the needs of the poor. The combination of Richmond being on the I-95 drug corridor and the destruction of the traditional family in the welfare class is a recipe for social disaster. Many attempts have been made to draw industry, commerce, and tourism back to the city, but so far it's a losing battle. Some cities (such as Cleveland) have won this battle, but Richmond has yet to find the formula for success.

Imagine having to teach in a school system where many students don't have a father figure at home. Imagine being told what you CANNOT do, and running scared of an educational administration with good intentions and bad results.

As for senseis being assaulted by their students, I have one modification to the title of that issue if it were to happen in my dojo - EX student.

One way or another...

- Bill

crazycat · Post by **crazycat** » Tue Jun 04, 2002 4:04 pm

Student nor teacher have the patience in this hurry up world, but do I want to be left behind?

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Aug 27, 2002 9:47 pm

I dug up this old thread so I could add this new information.

Case of teacher biting student sealed from public eyes

- Bill

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Wed Aug 28, 2002 5:57 am

I was present in a class where a male green belt threw our female 2nd-dan BB instructor backwards onto the floor, doing only what he was told to do.
Her pride was bruised, and she mumbled something about "well, if I had done that back when, I'd be doing fifty pushups", but the point was made. She was not ready.
The onus for upping the bar, as I see it, is on her, and no penalty should be meted for him.In fact he should be congratulated not only for his ability, but also his lack of intimidation! Isn't that a skill we're supposed to be learning?! NM

Brett · Post by **Brett** » Wed Aug 28, 2002 4:51 pm

Back in the mid 80's when I attended a public Jr. High I saw my gym teacher take a punch from a neanderthal "neck" about 6' tall. My gym coach warned him that another shot would result in severe consequences.
"Cronk", as I will refer to the kid, took it. I did not know my coach at that time was of dan ranking. He responded with hard hard blocks and counters that taught all of us the lesson of respecting your teacher. Kid was expelled and teacher was repreminded but not really penalised.

He is the reason I started MA.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Wed Aug 28, 2002 6:09 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

In the case of the Richmond school system, their statistics on violence to teachers and violence to students was shockingly low compared to the more affluent Chesterfield County just south of the city. What that means is that the administration was falling down on the job of keeping people safe.

In some states such as Massachusetts, if the employer is on notice of a potential unsafe condition on the job, especially if the employee reports it to management in apprehension, should an injury occur, such as physical or emotional injury from a punk student,the teacher can file a section 28 worker's compensation case [willful and wanton misconduct of the employer]giving rise to double the award for compensation.

That comes out of the employer's pockets after the insurance company pays the claim then goes after the employer for reimbursement.

Hit them in the pocket.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 5:26 am

2Green

No martial arts student should be penalized for getting a shot in on an instructor doing only what (s)he was told to do. If that were the case, then the teacher isn't really helping the students.

I've had it happen before. I've been teaching since 1978, and have gone through a couple thousand students by now. Occasionally someone you are working with in a prearranged or freeform format will get a good shot in. It only hurts a big ego. The wise thing for a teacher to do is realize that the junior student is learning, and compliment them. Everyone understands that control and respect are important, but we are practicing martial arts. That means that if you fight long enough, you are going to take a hit - even if you are really good. Otherwise you aren't training people very hard.

Fortunately for me, that doesn't happen very often any more.

What we are talking about in this thread, though, is public school students assaulting their instructors. The dillemma a teacher faces is pretty frightening. Turning the cheek and reporting results isn't very helpful when your health is in danger and/or the administration is apathetic to your plight.

In the case of the Richmond school system, their statistics on violence to teachers and violence to students was shockingly low compared to the more affluent Chesterfield County just south of the city. What that means is that the administration was falling down on the job of keeping people safe. You cannot deal with a problem if you don't first acknowledge that a problem exists. So what you get is individual teachers taking matters into their own hands - and then paying the consequence by being removed from duties without pay while being investigated. That's a REALLY good reason to take your kids, and move out of the city. There can be no quality teaching where students and teachers don't live in a safe, respectful environment.

What I also found interesting was the means the teacher used (rather primal and primative) to defend herself. It worked but...left those nasty marks for the reporters to drool over. This is a good argument for a more sophisticated means of control and restraint, like perhaps aikido.

- Bill

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 5:50 am

When a teacher, or any other person, is assaulted by someone intending grave bodily harm, the right of self defense SHOULD be absolute.

Unfortunately, in today's litigious society, the fear of legal reprisals and the probability of lack of support from the school district and even the Teacher's Union is a major inhibition for many teachers that I have talked to.

I do know of one instructor, a substitute, who comes to class the first day with a heavy valise. He opens it and removes three cinder blocks. He then proceeds to break one of them with his head, using the other two for support.

He NEVER has trouble in his classes.

Of course, he never tells his students that the one he breaks is made of pressed sugar, either.

"Win the fight in the mind, above all." -Musashi Miyamoto

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.HT.