The amusement park mirror

CANDANeh · Post by **CANDANeh** » Thu Sep 05, 2002 7:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As social creatures, we have our "pecking orders" that to a certain extent
mimic what we see with gorilla or wolf populations. And in those social systems, breaking
the unwritten rules often has physical consequences. When you see the behavior
exhibited by adolescents, prison inmates, and - sadly - some adults, you see echoes of
such animal interactions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Pecking order is live and well, must be nature and it is interesting to observe. Working with Scouts I try to modify the behaviour to a possitive end. Fights can erupt quickly if one oversteps the pecking order. Can be eliminated when an adult is present but would worsen when he leaves. look close and it is present in adults often held under the surface. Would be interesting to look into deeper.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Sep 06, 2002 5:14 am

So often after conflict I spend time in self-reflection. It's clear to me that "being right" is a shallow way to view the world and things we must deal with. Being wise goes a lot farther when it comes to living a life free of unnecessary stress.

Have you ever noticed how as an individual you bring certain types of behavior out of people around you? Someone may respond one way to another person, and an entirely different way to you. OK, so we can identify all the obvious stuff at first. If you are 21, female, shapely, and with a face that is easy on the eyes, you will bring certain types of behavior out of the males around you. But it goes much deeper than that.

Anyone that has taken any of the various personality tests out there (like Meyers-Briggs; see also Jung-Myers-Briggs) understands that we as individuals are unique entities that play unique roles in society. To some extent, our behavioral tendencies tend to interact with people around us in unique ways. Lacking that understanding means lacking an ability to identify opportunities and barriers. While I don't place a LOT of credence in any one personality assessment, the preponderance of results that come from multiple assessments often give valuable information to the individual.

From a conflict perspective, this seems really important. But I think this reaches other dimensions. As social creatures, we have our "pecking orders" that to a certain extent mimic what we see with gorilla or wolf populations. And in those social systems, breaking the unwritten rules often has physical consequences. When you see the behavior exhibited by adolescents, prison inmates, and - sadly - some adults, you see echoes of such animal interactions.

But how much of this is nature, and how much is nurture? How much does the development (if it is possible) of our EQ circumvent difficult patterns of behavior (physical or otherwise) in relationships around us? I often wonder. I often think about how we miss out on a lot in martial training by not investigating these concepts more fully.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited September 05, 2002).]

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sun Sep 08, 2002 5:09 am

Interesting thread.

Some people are very charismatic in nature in addition to social skills and depth of character that gets picked up by perceptive others. Good examples are Drew Doolin and Jay Carvhalo, whom many had the pleasure of meeting at camp.

Some people put up a front of being “nice” _ but you stick around them long enough and their true colors will show, and you kick your ass for “having been had”__

Successful people will evoke respect because they are real, considerate, committed and “stand up” individuals. They evoke the respect of people who themselves enjoy a fine reputation and respect.

The phonies end up as social pariahs, sooner than later, and we have seen some glaring examples in our own Uechi circles.

It is the human factor.

The presentation is all-important by the creation of positive contact with the others, and then there is the “staying power” of that presentation impression.

Again Jay Carvhao and Drew come to mind, as Jim Maloney commented.

You cannot influence friends, lovers, a spouse, without first creating a rapport, a trust, that something tangible the other can sense at a subliminal level, without the nagging feeling of being “conned.”

How many people, friends, lovers are we exposed to, who, sadly turn out to be fakes, untrustworthy, crooks, mentally unfit, and social thugs of one kind or another, given enough rope.

We were discussing this very subject today with Enrique and Mario, at lunch following a workout at the Hut.

Then there is the voice. The voice reveals who we are and how we are more than the words we choose.

Listen…listen to the voice..It will always tell you whom and what you are dealing with.

And then there is the eternal languor of “droning verbosity” that is as wonderfully crisp and exciting as soggy toilet paper, all engulfing and consuming.

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Van Canna

Deep Sea · Post by **Deep Sea** » Sun Sep 08, 2002 1:11 pm

The façade seems to be everything, whether it's genuine -- or fake.

Sometimes it's incredibly difficult to see through transparent ones, probably because we seek to believe the best in mankind and chose to blank-out that which we know as unpleasant.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sun Sep 08, 2002 8:53 pm

check out this site, don't know how true or scientific it is, but it is interesting
http://www.reversespeech.com/home.htm

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 2:33 am

Seems more like a curiosity than anything useful or plausible.

I WILL tell you that with modern signal processing, you can hide detailed messages in innocent recordings like a song. It's pretty fascinating stuff. But this conscious/unconscious, forwards/reverse stuff doesn't impress me. In other words, I don't buy it.

- Bill

david · Post by **david** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:12 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>From a conflict perspective, this seems really important. But I think this reaches other dimensions. As social creatures, we have our "pecking orders" that to a certain extent mimic what we see with gorilla or wolf populations. And in those social systems, breaking the unwritten rules often has physical consequences. When you see the behavior exhibited by adolescents, prison inmates, and - sadly - some adults, you see echoes of such animal interactions.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The enduring question of "nature vs nurture." While I appreciate the need for the pack (our "social" side), I could never quite comprehend the need for some to "fit in" and play the game at all cost (to one's own identity/integrity. Maybe I'm just wired differently... But on the "nurture" side, I have definitely made a choice to not immediately adopt or conform to the crowd. I prefer my "loneness" to the company of some "packs." Indeed, I used to love to "pick off" individual members of certain packs. But, I realize this compulsion is a reverse tyranny of sorts.

Working with teenagers, I really have to examine my own motives when helping them negotiate their places in the social order.

david

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 4:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

While I appreciate the need for the pack (our "social" side), I could never quite comprehend the need for some to "fit in" and play the game at all cost (to one's own identity/integrity

Very revealing, david.

When I was a very young adolescent, I wanted so much to fit in with the "in" crowd. The effort was most frustrating; I am by nature an "off the wall" character. As I matured, I found myself more and more happy striving to be the unique individual I am and letting the world find me - or not.

"Fitting in" is useful at times. I have to be a team player at work and with the martial arts groups if I want to see great things happen. But there are times when I very much like being the lone wolf. There are times when I really identify with the person you tend to be at times, david.

Good for you.

- Bill

hthom · Post by **hthom** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 9:54 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ted Dinwiddie:
Bill Writes:

-------I have never worked for a company that understood those concepts. I cannot abide "success" achieved by kissing *ss irrespective of performance and ability. I have seen it too much and I don't want to play.------

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same reason that I just can't wait for my retirement. It's getting more difficult getting up for work every morning. I envy you, Ted. Best of luck.

With all the lone wolves around, I wonder if they would call us "a pack of lone wolves" if we ever get together. Is there such a thing as a pack of lone wolves?

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Wed Sep 11, 2002 1:13 am

David,

We'll see how it goes.

My "office" is in the same area as my heavy bag and other training toys. My ADD may benefit or it may not...

------------------
ted

"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke

crazycat · Post by **crazycat** » Wed Sep 11, 2002 5:06 am

Put away the glitter and material things as I might hide behind them. We are wired to be spiritual beings, all connected to that one thing, whatever that is. I have forgotten how to communicate on a much higher level. As I already know.

Gene DeMambro · Post by **Gene DeMambro** » Wed Sep 11, 2002 5:40 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

With all the lone wolves around, I wonder if they would call us "a pack of lone wolves" if we ever get together. Is there such a thing as a pack of lone wolves?

In the wild, lone wolves are at a tremendous disadvantage. They must hunt and fend for themselves, all without the support and assistance a pack provides. They truly go at it alone.

Lone wolves and wolves for another pack can enter another pack. Whether a wolf is accepted of not is solely dependant upon what the lone wolf has to say, and what he does when intracting with the "seniors" of the pack. It's his/her audition, adn they usually left him/her play it out.

Gene

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Wed Sep 11, 2002 5:57 am

Bill Writes:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

As social creatures, we have our "pecking orders" that to a certain extent mimic what we see with gorilla or wolf populations. And in those social systems, breaking the unwritten rules often has physical consequences. When you see the behavior exhibited by adolescents, prison inmates, and - sadly - some adults, you see echoes of such animal interactions.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then David writes:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

While I appreciate the need for the pack (our "social" side), I could never quite comprehend the need for some to "fit in" and play the game at all cost (to one's own identity/integrity. Maybe I'm just wired differently... ...I have definitely made a choice to not immediately adopt or conform to the crowd. I prefer my "loneness" to the company of some "packs."

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sums it up for me. I have recently made the very, scary choice to strike out as a freelancer. The corporate environment (a definite pecking order, pack mentality) is toxic for me. I hate the way humans interact when they become large, organized groups, no matter why they have gathered. I have found a part of my personality that resembles that of the rattlesnake - I do my thing, you do yours. We can avoid each other if we want to. Fail to give me my space, well... it won't be a good experience (for either of us, unfortunately). I love the concept of "team," of "sempai, kohai," and of "uki." I have never worked for a company that understood those concepts. I cannot abide "success" achieved by kissing *ss irrespective of performance and ability. I have seen it too much and I don't want to play.

------------------
ted

"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke

[This message has been edited by Ted Dinwiddie (edited September 10, 2002).]

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Sep 11, 2002 6:37 am

Lone wolves also hook up with other lone wolves and start new packs.

Nope I'm not advocating a new Uechi organization.

Three new packs have started here in the last 25 years, and no they didn't just fall from heaven.

Interesting to see the outcast lone wolf spin off new packs. The original packs now in decline and the newest group of lone wolves now number 25 individual, and took down over 150 elk last winter.

The moral?

could be loners attract friends because they cool

could be dominate guys fade as they grow old and their packs falter.

could be if your a surviver you will survive, and just by surviving you grow stronger!

Laird

[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited September 11, 2002).]

Deep Sea · Post by **Deep Sea** » Wed Sep 11, 2002 9:51 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Sums it up for me. I have recently made the very, scary choice to strike out as a freelancer. The corporate environment (a definite pecking order, pack mentality) is toxic for me. I hate the way humans interact when they become large, organized groups, no matter why they have gathered. I have found a part of my personality that resembles that of the rattlesnake - I do my thing, you do yours. We can avoid each other if we want to. Fail to give me my space, well... it won't be a good experience (for either of us, unfortunately). I cannot abide "success" achieved by kissing *ss irrespective of performance and ability. I have seen it too much and I don't want to play.

Good for you, Ted. By freelancing, you have selected to be at the very top of a pecking order which YOU control and manipulate, not management. You have severed the pecking order umbilical cord that attaches co-workers to you and are now a member of the management team. You control the shots; you control your destiny in the workforce; you isolate yourself from, and are insulated against the pecking order of such things as: a) stabbing others in the back to get a few hours overtime or b) get a few cents more when raise time comes around because you’ve purposely made coworker look like a blooming ##### [oops, that’s backstabbing] or c) running a personality contest to see who’s the best actor.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I love the concept of "team," of "sempai, kohai," and of "uki." I have never worked for a company that understood those concepts.

I have been consulting since the mid 70s when I left MIT’s Lincoln Laboratory to do my own thing, Ted, and won’t have it any other way unblessed forced into that position by a bad economy.

However, at least 60% of where I go would not survive without teammanship, therefore even though I’m on my own, it is important to work closely with groups as well, and you may find that true later on as well. I’m good at what I do, and found out through the years that teammanship skills are mandatory and often critical and crucial. The big difference in being an employee vs freelancing is to be able to fully concentrate on tasks rather than politics, and this is one place where personal satisfaction gives a person what money can’t buy. Good luck Ted!!!!!

Laird, I love this lone-wolf concept of yours. To me, the big part of being a lone wolf up there where the air gets thin is embracing and being excited by, going where most simply cannot follow as well as doing what most people are afraid of. However, there are others there as well, and the pecking order contiues. The only way to get away from it is to hide on a deserted island alone. Go there with a woman and there's still a pecking order, some call it the order of the hens and is discussed in another's forum.

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera