shu shi wa's nephew???

hoshin · Post by **hoshin** » Tue Aug 06, 2002 5:28 am

this question goes to Bill Glasheen or George Mattson or anyone who knows..

i had heard that the superempie (sry bad spelling) that Simon Lailey taught at camp and that Bill Glasheen teaches at camp came from shu shi wa's nephew. is this true? and is this the same person George Mattson met at the Fuchou meeting? how credible is this information?

thanks
Hoshin
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Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Aug 06, 2002 5:39 am

I was told by Simon Lailey that "the old man" from whom Simon learned this form was his nephew.

How credible? I can tell you that I don't know Chinese, so I can't corroborate very well. It isn't easy for me to go down to the local Vital Records and check birth certificates.

For all we know, Kanbun spent 13 years getting high in China, and then came back and made the whole bloody system up. We don't really have much to go on other than oral history.

It's been a while since I've seen Simon. He's been a bit of a recluse these days. When I get contact, I'll ask him how much more work he's done on the documentation.

- Bill

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Sat Aug 10, 2002 4:32 pm

I think it should also be pointed out that Simon believes he met the nephew of an historical Southern Chinese martial artist named Zhou Zi He.

It is currently generally accepted that this Zhou Zi He is the person whom Kanbun referred to as "Shushiwa" (or supposedly Kanbun actually called him "Shushabu"). This belief is largely based on some evidence presented in the early 1980s by a Fuzhou wushu association that had looked into finding the historical Shushiwa, at the request of Ryuko Tomoyose (they also supposedly found a living grandson of Zhou Zi He, Zhou Yi Sha, but made no mention of finding a living student). However in all honesty the connection between Kanbun's "Shushiwa" and the historically-documented Zhou Zi He can never be established with absolute certainty. Even if the different names we see (i.e., "Zhou Zi He", "Chou Tzu Ho", "Shu Shi Wa") are only different romanizations (respectively: Pinyin, Wade-Giles, and Japanese I believe) of the same characters, that does not prove conclusively that Kanbun's teacher was the historical teacher the wushu association found information on.

What is important to keep in mind here is that the belief that Simon met Shushiwa's nephew stems first from the belief that "Shushiwa" was this Zhou Zi He.

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Glenn

[This message has been edited by Glenn (edited August 12, 2002).]

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Sat Aug 10, 2002 4:50 pm

Hi Glen,
I read some thing by simon lailey years ago on tiger stake boxing , he mention the headmaster of this style was non other than shu shi wa there was a ref; to alineage coming up to the present times , I will if you wish dig this out and post some details ? any way being curious just going to take a look see if I can find it .

max.

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max ainley

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Mon Aug 12, 2002 4:46 pm

Hi Max,

Sure, I'd be interested if you come across it again. Thanks.

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Glenn

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 7:03 pm

Hi Glen, Hoshin, Bill,

The lineage;

chou tze ho
Jing shi tian
Lui bao tong
Chang tian si
Simon lailey was taught three forms in this article, by
Chang tian si a third generation tiger master in fuzhou.
Glen this was under the FWA Association in fuzhou if you think its worth my time relating areas of the article ,I will .

max ainley

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max ainley

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 9:54 pm

Max

Please give the reference(s), and continue. I am most interested. I would also like to read this article.

- Bill

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 10:03 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maxwell ainley:
The lineage;

chou tze ho
Jing shi tian
Lui bao tong
Chang tian si
Simon lailey was taught three forms in this article, by
Chang tian si a third generation tiger master in fuzhou.
Glen this was under the FWA Association in fuzhou if you think its worth my time relating areas of the article ,I will .

max ainley <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Max, that's very interesting info. I gathered from other sources that the history and successor-lineage of Chou Tze Ho is fairly well known. My question though is still whether Chou Tze Ho (Zhou Zi He) was indeed Shushiwa. We have Kanbun's stories of a teacher he called Shushiwa (or Shushabu) and we have this historically documented figure named Chou Tze Ho...but were they the same person?

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Glenn

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 10:57 pm

Bill,

No problem will post ,and give ref;Its late , back later ,

Glenn ,
I share your thought on shushiwa /chou tze ho , I just don't know if they were the same person .

max ainley

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max ainley

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 7:39 pm

Hi Bill,
The REF;trad@martialartsinprint.co.uk
Its the april/may edition's 1991

TIGER BOXING

Chang tian si is a native of fuzhou.At the time of his childhood schooling was not compulsory and so his earlier years were spent within the confines of his home,helping the family support itself.At the age of thirteen mr chang began work at a factory which manufactured padlocks,and it was here that he met a man named Liu Bao Tong .The youthful chang and Mr Liu became good friends and it was not long before Mr chang discovered that his fellow -worker was a expert in the school of Wu Shu [ chinese martial arts] known as Hu Xing Quan;or shadow boxing of tiger.
Later

max ainley

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max ainley

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Thu Aug 15, 2002 6:55 pm

Cont,

'Tiger boxing; to give it its more familiar name, is unique to fujian.It is a defensive system based upon the movements and characteristics of the tiger, which for centuries has freely roamed the fujian land-scape.Even to this day these tigers can be found in the mountainous and more desolate regions of this most beautiful and breath-taking eastern province.

Also known as,'Tiger stake',Hu Xing Quan is one of the seven major boxing systems of fujian province, the other six being; Dragon,Dog,Five Ancestors;Lian County;White Crane;and crane.It is style of boxing taught not only in fuzhou, but also within eighteen of the sixty -eight counties which form this south eastern costal province of china.
The story behind Mr Chang's desire to learn Wu Shu is typical of many chinese teenagers ;weak child prone to illness

wishes to improve health and become strong.Coupled to this was a fascination for the art as well as an eagerness to learn some form of self-defence.

max ainley

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max ainley

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:15 pm

Cont
Mr Chang first attended classes held at Mr Liu's home,each practice session comprising of no more than ten students.
Wu Shu masters have never been keen on teaching large groups, placing great importance upon the development of a solid 'one-to one'relationship with the student.
The master also likes to feel certain that what he has taught can be entrusted to the student without fear of its misuse,as any kind of 'unfortunate'incident would be taken personally by the teacher as a failing to instill the correct mental spirit into his student.
One good example of this was uechi kanbun who returned home from china after one of his students killed a man through the abuse of his skills in a fit of uncontrolled anger.Taking this as a personal reflection of his own incompetence,uechi kanbun promptly packed his bags and returned to his native homeland,vowing never again to teach the martial arts .
As he would only teach a few students at one time, Master Liu was giving instruction almost every evening.Consequently,Mr Chang would only be admitted into his Master's house twice a week.But this is not to say he was discouraged from training-as a point of fact Master Liu would impress upon his students the importance of ,and the necessity for private practice and self training .As far as tuition fees were concerned,Mr Chang would never actually see any of his wages as everything he earnt from the factory he gave directly to his master.

max ainley

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max ainley

Post by **gmattson** » Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:23 pm

Thanks for the research information Max. By the way, we were talking about you at camp this year. . . How bricklaying is a fantastic form of hand, arm and body conditioning.

It came up during a discussion regarding how different cultures would use their trades and knowledge developed from their manual labor, to form fighting systems.

Stevadores using the bailing hook for fighting, etc...

Hope you can join us one year...

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GEM

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Aug 16, 2002 9:32 pm

George

When you made that allusion during Drew's talk, it reminded me of something. I presume you've seen the classic Akira Kurosawa movie Seven Samurai. In the movie, the samurai ringleader (Kambei) comes across a master swordsman (Kyuzo I believe) who is busy swinging an ax to make firewood for some food money. When asked what school he trained in, he replies that he came from the wood chopping school. It is the classic profile of common man that uses the skills of his "trade" or way of life as the foundation of his martial abilities.

- Bill

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Sat Aug 17, 2002 12:11 am

GEM SENSEI,

Thanks for the comments.
yes it would be a experience to attend a summer camp.
You are right masonery / bricklaying work is a great overall conditioner, also they are very old crafts ,yet new developments keep them fresh and up to date ,I did remark in my posts how my uechi understanding saw the kamae/posture ,hand positions ,etc in those crafts , there are similar concepts to kata principles such as flow.
A flow of movement ,It took quite some time for me to learn how to use that flow, to get work done in a type of effortless way.

max ainley

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max ainley