Honor, humiliation and avoidance (stolen from Van's Forum)

[LenTesta]

Rory Great post!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> "Does seeing her man "back down" make him less attractive in her eyes/body?"
"Evolutionarily speaking, I would guess that is exactly how she would feel and think."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would think that most men perceive that they would also. Mix in the normal urges of the protection of ones woman and there could have been an escalation of the situation. Most men get upset when another man, or worse a group of males, tries to get the attention of his woman.
Upset to the point of wanting violently to “shut this person up”. Instead of verbal defense to diffuse a confrontation, most will use fight-inducing words. They resort to violence when angered. Fortunately almost every martial artist I know has learned to deal with this “emotional high jacking” ( I just love this phrase) and shrug it off as no real threat.

Billy B-san did the right thing. Of course his instincts tell him he has been shamed.
But for what? For some primal urge that is controllable. They were only trying to hurt him mentally. He created a perfect lesson in VSD. We all know that like physical self-defense…where some techniques work in some situations and some don’t…the same goes for verbal self-defense. The important thing is to learn what words will provoke, and refrain from using them, and what words work and practice using them.
ONLY IF the verbal breaks down and you are attacked should you use your martial arts training.


I would also like to hear how the women feel about this topic, I am sure that most women would like to have these situations handled as such…with verbal self-defense and not violent self-defense.


Thanks Allen

JD… You let out the secret! Now I will never get my turn. The line will be out the door.


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Len Testa

[Panther]

One very minor "nit" to pick...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

Legally, we may "escalate" a conflict.

Actually, from a "Legal" perspective... you better not escalate a conflict! That's a sure ticket to a free night being monitored by the local constabulary! From said "Legal" perspective, it is required (especially for Martial Artists) to make every attempt to deescalate any confrontation...

Billy B-san,

Read some of the material that was posted that quotes Mac Young or DeBecker concerning other's responses to a percieved "less-than-alpha" male. When I was in a recent, ahem situation... I didn't even think about this psychological conditioning until Canna-sempai and others pointed it out. Once I realized some of the underlying themes that were occuring, it helped me better understand and handle the situation. Perhaps it can help you understand as well...

AND... fercryinoutloud! Talk with her about it and find out where she's at!

[BILLY B]

Thanks for the reminder Panther. I've been meaning to update you folks.

Talked to her a while back now...

I asked "Do you remember the time when..."
She replied "Yes, I do."

I then told her the things that went through my mind, the intense emotion that I felt, the anguish that followed etc.... She just looks at me real puzzled like.

So I ask "Do you think I should have taken any different action?" She says "No, you would have been killed by those eight guys!"
I respond that she is right, no matter what the outcome, "something bad" would have happened... even if I was not hurt. Then I explained that even though I know this, I still struggled with it. Then I explain some things I have learned from y'all about hardwiring, etc.

Then I ask "How do you think you are hardwired to respond to these things, emotionaly and physiologicaly?" She said "I dunno?" So I asked how she would tend to react to such things. She says "Oh, well since I would not expect him to strike me, because I am a woman... I would go right up to him, get in his face, blah, blah, blah..."

This leads me of course to ask her why she would make such an assumption, but more importantly I asked her this: "Do you know what that would do to me, emotionaly and physiologicaly, to see you engaged in that kind of heated face to face confrontation with that particular idiot???!!" She says "You would go off." , then she retracted her previous statements.

We love each other and know each other, but we don't know what makes each other tick. At least life ain't boring.....



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"There ain't no graduation from this kind of education"

[LenTesta]

This is an excerpt from a regular featured article Says Her taken from Maxim magazine’s August 2000 issue.

Amy Spencer writes:

While every woman has had a fantasy about two men fighting to the death over her, in the real world of supermarkets and sports bars, we don’t like men who fight. “A hundred thousand years ago. Our ancestors wanted men who could maintain peace to keep their children out of danger," says Geoffrey Miller a cognitive psychologist and the author of The Mating Mind. “This is the same way dominant male chimpanzees act: like policemen who break up fights rather than start them.” So don’t think you’re impressing us with your tough-guy speeches. We’d much rather hug the big hairy ape who can calm those ready-to-rumble types down.


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Len Testa

[Mary S]

Len, Amy Spencer certainly did not contact me before she wrote her article....every woman fantasizes that two men will fight over her? What women would that be? That's a pretty general statement for someone to make and I can tell you, in this instance, it's untrue. I personally believe that generalizations like this often lead to communication problems. Or maybe that was your point? ~grin~

[chris]

I guess I wasn't contacted for my input on that article either. I certainly don't appreciate the idea of two men fighting for me, forget about fantasizing over it.

[Gary Santaniello]

Len,

Not having read through the entire thread i would only say from your first post, "these things will happen!"

The second quessing and questioning of how we handle (or should have) certain situations will always come back to haunt us. I have "demons" that occassionally come back from many years ago. Yet every now and then another situation will arise from nowhere.

I could have, would have, should have, will always arise in our minds. It's a battle my friend, but not one you fight alone !

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Gary S.

[LenTesta]

Mary S and Chris:

Thanks for your input and welcome to the VSD forum.

Many of us have fantasies that we would never make real or even discuss. That is what is nice about fantasies. However, Amy Spencer does write: in the real world{snip}we don’t like men who fight.

Is this also how you feel?

If a man perceives that his woman has these fantasies, he may want to prove his “macho abilities” and fulfill that fantasy. The ultimate reward for this fulfillment may outweigh the pain. He thinks: “She will comfort my wounds and will be forever grateful that I was willing to get hurt for her”. Lack of communication between men and women can cause these situations to escalate because of preconceived emotions ingrained from historical situations. Chivalry had a lot to do with planting these emotions in our minds. Gentlemen would be willing to die at a duel for the right to marry the woman. This behavior is no longer acceptable in the modern world. Courts do not take kindly to duels. The consequences of these fights do not justify the actions. Medical bills, lost wages, lawyers, court costs, and possible separation from time spent in jail, can rip apart relationships.

Talk to your mates and tell them how you feel about them defending against a verbal attack.


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Len Testa

[chris]

--“She will comfort my wounds and will be forever grateful that I was willing to get hurt for her”.-- Not being one who likes the sight of blood, I'd rather deal with injured pride than comforting wounds. I cannot speak for other women (knowing that generalizations promote confusion and ignorance), but I find it difficult to tolerate men who feel they have to prove their "macho abilities." In my humble opinion, the knights and their round table faded away a long time ago; the brawling to impress women should have faded too.
--While it's comforting to know that there is someone in my corner who supports me and would look out for my welfare, I draw the line at someone else throwing punches for me. It's enough for someone to just BE there. Expecting the man to step in and neutralize every threatening situation reduces the woman to a clinging weakling and puts pressure unfairly on the man's shoulders. Women are adults too and therefore should have to deal with ugly situations. We can't just hoist off responsibility to the men.
I'd like to know what some of the men think about women who expect men to handle threatening situations for them. Do you preceive these women to be weak? or simply productions of years of chivalrous tendancies?

[Panther]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris:
I find it difficult to tolerate men who feel they have to prove their "macho abilities."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I (or others on these forums) might not feel the need to prove any abilities... and having previously stated my opinion that walking away is the best thing... AND also recognizing the given that we should never, ever, ever start an altercation (In fact, we should do everything to de-escalate)...

I must say that I was truly enlightened by the posts of many on other threads concerning the whole "alpha-male" concept. (Thanks again to Canna-sempai and others for the pointers and sharing of Mac Young & DeBecker... )

For me, after following all of the de-escalation, walk away, let it lie principles that we've discussed... there does come a point (perhaps for self-defense, regardless it's different for everyone in every situation) where the best thing to do is calmly and casually let the self-proclaimed "macho man" know that you too have alpha characteristics... charateristics that he needs to "let lay".

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

In my humble opinion, the knights and their round table faded away a long time ago; the brawling to impress women should have faded too.

Agree that "brawling" needs to or should have faded away, however... Chivalry is not dead and should always be kept alive!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

--While it's comforting to know that there is someone in my corner who supports me and would look out for my welfare, I draw the line at someone else throwing punches for me.

I think that statement needs a caveat. I totally agree with the statement if/when referring to a situation where someone is just being a loudmouthed @$$hole... However, I completely disagree with the statement in a true self-defense situation of imminent death or grave bodily injury.

There's no need for me to step in to "defend my wife's honor" from someone who's namecalling... she can take care of herself. But if some man starts the escalation against her, I damn well will step in! Even if it's just as a backup... even the best shooters miss sometimes!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

It's enough for someone to just BE there.

NO, it's not... your backup has to be ready, willing and able to jump into the fray with/for you at all times (PERIOD). I was with someone once who got drawn into an altercation and then got me drawn into it... As things were deteriorating, I looked over to realize that he had "excused" himself to go stand on the sidelines and watch! So, "being there" wasn't enough! Being young and stupid at the time, it really peeved me that he had "bailed out" on me in the middle of this, so... I used the opportunity to tell him what a jerk he was AND to talk my way out of the situation with the other guys! While I was talking my way out of it, my "friend" ran to his car and left!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

Expecting the man to step in and neutralize every threatening situation reduces the woman to a clinging weakling and puts pressure unfairly on the man's shoulders. Women are adults too and therefore should have to deal with ugly situations. We can't just hoist off responsibility to the men.

True enough and I agree... just don't let your macho feminine attitude cause you to fail to utilize your backup when it's needed.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

I'd like to know what some of the men think about women who expect men to handle threatening situations for them. Do you preceive these women to be weak? or simply productions of years of chivalrous tendancies?

Not always weak, often they're manipulative as a means to "test" their man's manhood/suitability. (I know that's going to get some folks going, but I've seen it happen too many times not to recognize it for what it is... )



[This message has been edited by Panther (edited July 27, 2000).]

[BILLY B]

Hey, the feeling are there! Why deny them? Sure, control them, temper them with rational thought when possible....

..Seeing my girl in a face to face heated exchange with a man will trigger "things". She should know that about me... I can only control so much.. Men should know that about each other!

Come on, women are'nt excited when in the presence of testosterone!?? Ha!

No matter how "intelligent" we THINK we are, the fact is we are primal! So, the question is: How to use these primal instincts best?

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"There ain't no graduation from this kind of education"

[LenTesta]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

While I (or others on these forums) might not feel the need to prove any abilities... and having previously stated my opinion that walking away is the best thing... AND also recognizing the given that we should never, ever, ever start an altercation (In fact, we should do everything to de-escalate)...

One should never start a physical altercation. We as humans have the same feelings for the most part. Being upset at unwanted advances or threats is normal. You can start a verbal confrontation as long as there is no mention of the altercation leading to the physical. De-escalating a verbal confrontation after you have started it is the hardest thing for most people to do. Emotions can escalate the argument then before you know it you are speaking without thinking and actually provoking in some instances.

Chris states: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

--While it's comforting to know that there is someone in my corner who supports me and would look out for my welfare, I draw the line at someone else throwing punches for me. It's enough for someone to just BE there.

Guys, we asked for the women’s views and they are responding…

Let her do the verbal comeback if she is the victim of unwanted aggressions. Being there (near her) while she speaks to this aggressor will be support enough. If she needs to have you speak she will ask for your support.

Billy B states: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

Seeing my girl in a face to face heated exchange with a man will trigger "things". She should know that about me... I can only control so much.. Men should know that about each other!

Yes, this is true for most of us men. The main reason for the unwanted advances may be just to get a confrontation from the man. By letting the woman speak for herself, the man will most likely back down because he was expecting you to confront him instead of her.

We men, must not be so quick to assume that our spouses or loved ones can not verbally defend themselves. We can start by telling each other what we expect of each other when/if these situations shall arrive.



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Len Testa