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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2000 3:07 pm 
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How confident will you be when a garbage mouthed male verbally attacks?

David Elkins Sensei has posted a topic on Van Canna's Self Defense Realities Forum which is titled Realism.

I agree with Van when he stated:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you want to train women with realism you want to develop a real “garbage mouth” as a prelude to simulated attack, because when directed at a woman by an aggressor, it is a most horrifying sound.

It is potentially devastating and debilitating to a woman because the foul language objectifies her, reduces the woman to body parts for the attacker’s pleasure.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do women feel about practicing this type of attack with VSD?

Do you feel your Sensei, if he became the "garbage mouthed" attacker will not be able to initiate a correct response without losing respect of their student?

How can VSD help you out this situation?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2000 4:36 pm 
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Lori:
I am posting this here in my forum to relieve you of the task of copying or a redundant response. I think it also serves as an answer to my question. If I have stolen it without your authority, please let me know and I will remove it. Aslo please feel free to copy any of my posts or topics to your forum as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by Lori in Van Canna's Self Defense Realities Forum

Yes - a very important topic - and fits on our forums as well Len-san - as it started here I'm replying here but will probably try to develop the female aspects over in the "wimmen's corner" (as JD calls it )
The verbal "barking" of which you speak is a touchy thing to get started... In my interviews with potential female students - they often express discomfort at the "drill sergeant" type style of teaching observed in other dojos. Yet - they want to study - a potential conflict already: wanting to fight but not wanting verbal confrontation.

Our dojo does not really have that kind of teaching style - so women feel more comfortable intitially - yet there are occasions where it comes up - and specifically in classes geared toward women and self-defense issues. This is where I believe the key is: if a woman is seeking to enhance self-defense skills - then this "barking" scenario type training is an important component - one that can be discussed ahead of time and they know that they are "in for it" at one point in the class. Sure - she knows it is going to happen - but there will still be an "emotional surge" as Van-san so aptly points out - which can be very instructional!

For responsible teaching - I agree with Van - the place for that type of "garbage-mouth" scenario training is via imports or at least a special class outside the regular dojo environment. Personally I do not believe that "barking" has much of a place in the dojo - only to a certain extent - and in certain ways from a competent and responsible instructor. The instructor is not a "buddy" within the framework of a class - and a certain level of stern-ness or crisp commands or constructive criticism is part of the level of authority expected from a teacher in the martial arts. (IMO) This level will vary from instructor to instructor, and the student must seek an instructor they are comfortable with - this is more important than even the style they choose. I have found as a female instructor the use of this type of authority a VERY difficult game - pi***s off some of the guys - shakes up some of the women - at other times it is motivational. It will vary as to it's effectiveness based on the make up of the class. Easier to adjust for smaller classes - larger classes will call upon a certain instructor "personality" that develops and successful instructors use without even realizing (excellent example of a superb presenter: sensei Khoury - who I wish I could emulate). I've done the same thing teaching other subjects to large groups. To a certain extent I do - yet - as a female the SAME delivery techniques that are respected in a male instructor do NOT get the same results from a female. This is where I will try to start an offshoot thread on my forum.

From a student perspective, I have also noted and practiced a certain "switch" after a bow - ie. a few of my dan partners used to love to give demos for a dan kumite - we cut loose so ferociously that observers felt we were really fighting! I had a partner like that for my shodan test - we looked like we really hated each other and were hitting hard (no "pulling" punches there!) - as soon as we finished, we bowed, grinned and shook hands - and it was the only time I ever saw my sensei crack a small smile while sitting on a test board (he usually looks mean and imposing when he's on a board). Afterward numerous people remarked at how realistic our kumite looked - they really thought we hated each other - even other dan ranks thought this! Point is - that is how we trained - using the "magical" bow - bow, kill, bow, friends. A beginning and an end point for practicing violence - to the only extent it can be practiced in a dojo environment. Not even close to simulating the real thing - as we learn on this forum - but at least a practice at "turning on" and "turning off" a practiced violent, furious, fast and relentless response.

Anyway - just my two cents... running out of time but looking forward to seeing more on this subject... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



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Len Testa


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2000 7:49 pm 
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Lori:

Your .04 is worth a million Image

I know we talked about the cross posts at summer camp, but I wanted you to know that I was copying your post.

What works for men with VSD, may not work with women.

On Tony Blauers tape Cerebral Defense he states that women will believe a male attacker when they say "Do as I say and you will not be harmed". Then when the attacker has had their way, they harm the victim anyway. Even if there is no physical harm, the emotional harm has already been attained. Tony goes on to say "Why should you believe an attacker who does this for a living?" Because we want to believe he is telling the truth.

Why do women fall prey for this line? What VSD could a woman use to combat this VEH (Verbal Emotional Highjacking)?


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Len Testa

[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited August 22, 2000).]


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2000 8:55 pm 
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This could go on the thread about size being a factor in VSD, or this thread over on the women's forum, or... It doesn't address the problem where a woman who is attacked actually believes her attacker when told "I won't hurt you if you do what I say..." YUCK, just thinking it, it seems BS in my head! grrrr...

Anyway, smaller woman confronted by "garbage mouth" uses VSD (well sort of) Image :

Many years ago, I was in a local watering hole in Carolina with my older sister who was back home for a visit. This place had a little stage and there was a local "Southern Rock" band playing cover tunes with folks dancing. We were sitting at the bar because it was crowded and those were the only seats. I'm ~6'2", and (at the time) was ~215# (Oh, the days... Image ), but I got all the size in my family! My older sister is 5'1/2" (do not forget that 1/2! " Image ) and was weighing in at a hefty ~100#! Up saunters this Mike Tyson wannabe, taps her on the shoulder and it goes like this: (

Mike: "Wanna dance wit me?"
Sis: "No, thanks anyway." (turns back around)
Mike: (tapping on shoulder again) "I said, will ya dance wit me?"
Sis: "I said, 'No, thanks anyway.'"
Mike: "Why won't you dance wit me?"
Sis: "Cause I don't feel like dancing. OK?" (I'm looking at this guy who is ~6'4", easily 250+#, obviously works out and from the scares on his face he's been hit before... and I'm thinking this is $hit she don't even want to get into... she's gonna get herself killed!)
Mike: "You just don't want to dance wit me 'cause you think I'm not as good as you!"
Sis: "That's not true. I'm just having a drink and I don't feel like dancing."
Mike: "You just a stuck-up F-in' B**** C*** *@#%$*^%@#$%#@, you &^@#$(^@#$! You racist little S***! I oughta teach you a lesson."
Sis: (slides off of the bar stoll with everyone now watching, literally climbs up the leg rails and stands up on the stool, reaches down and grabs "Mike" by the shirt, gets right in his face and yells) "That's RIGHT, you low-life *#@$^(#$&^%$#@%#! Now leave me the *^?@$(@#$(^*@$^*#@$ alone, you ^#$*(^&)@#$%^^%?@&^%#@$! OR else I'll rip your puny little pr!ck off and shove it up your @$$! GOT IT!" (I'm thinking, here it comes, I better step in before he hits her, ohmygawd...)
Mike: "I - i - i - i'm really sorry miss... ummmm... P - p - please forgive me... I just w - w - wanted a dance... can I b - b - buy you a drink?"
Sis: (letting go of "Mike's" shirt and pointing to an empty seat at a table) "NO! You can not buy me a drink! Now sit down and think about what a *&^#@$(#$ you were! When you remember how to talk to people with some respect, then maybe someone will dance with you."
Mike: (goes to table, meekly sits down and sulks... later - I think he sobered up a little - he asked and was turned down by a few different women for a dance. Someone finally danced with him, but just one dance and he ended up back at "his" seat.)

I tried to ask her what the heck she was thinking to do such a thing and her only response was that he was a bully who thought he could pick on women that needed a woman to be a bigger bully and "spank" him. When I asked "what if it hadn't worked", she just smiled and said she felt safe 'cause I was right there. Sheesh! Image

Does that count as VSD or just "garbage mouth"? Image


[This message has been edited by Panther (edited August 22, 2000).]


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2000 9:27 pm 
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Ah! See my post on the "stature" thread - different instance - same concept! Your sister was right on target in my book - VSD for women will (often? always?) need an agressive posture - other type stances, posture, words, reasoning from a woman to a predator will be met with derisive laughter from the now even more ego inflated offender who is WILL interpret reasoning as submissive from a woman. We are socially programmed that way.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2000 9:45 pm 
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Gobbidge Mouf can be intimidating even for men, emotional hijacking is a vicious thing.

Is there a good answer? Panther's sister did one that worked, for her, that time.

What do you do when the perp comes up a nd plasters you verbally?Plaster them back?
It has worked, but you got to be ready to back up the talk with the walk, imo.

Then I think, they know you are ready to waltz, step on their blue suede shoes and in general make them go down the road feelin' bad.

Question of attitude.

'Tis said that 'a soft answer turneth away wrath, 'too.

Will this work on Gobbidge Mouf?

Maybe.

Or do we fight fire with a nuke?

What saith VSD on this subject, Len?

Dr.X, perchance?(Now there is a guy you don't want to engage in verbal kumite with.:-)

Kusanku


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2000 9:51 pm 
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Image - Good points made all.

Panther: not sure what I count as VSD, but that sure sounds like a verbal defuse to me.

I recall a story from Coach Blauer in which, after dealing with some moron who was pestering him in his school for far too long, he finally told him off and threw him out. After which, he called Walt Lysak, angry with himself for not diffusing the situation.

Walt's response was: "Was there a fight?"
Coach "No..."
Walt: "Then I guess you defused it"

One point: This is not just about women. Men can be a victem of verbal assault just as easily. I speak from experience.

More later...must go train Image

Jake


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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2000 10:11 pm 
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I remember an old adage "If you are small and pick a fight with a big guy and win, you are a hero. Lose and the big guy is a bully." In other words, the big guy always loses a fight. (This only works where lots of people are watching)

Panther: Your Sis was in a win-win situation. Even drunk, the big guy had to reason that this gal, in this bar (with all his friends) had a big advantage. The only way he could defuse this nasty, self imposed embarrassing situation, which your sis had escalated into a "hit her or shut up" option, was to sit down and hope she would go away!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2000 5:39 am 
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Len - copy away please! (We talked of this at camp - and I feel it is a good idea to cross post)

The subject drew me right in on Van's forum - and it took me so long to get my reply in (a zillion interruptions this morning!) but I still have points I would like to address - this forum is another place to develop it - and there will be cross-over - but as I see it each of the forums can develop aspects of this subject. As threads develop - especially really potent threads - there is often a tapestry of subjects and tangents and related issues that work their way in - perhaps using the different forums we can help clarify some of the issues and at the least drive a few of the important ones home.

To address your questions on this thread:

As a female karate practitioner and teacher - I see the importance of this type of training - and seek it out to practice stimulation of the chemical "cocktail" to test my responses - both verbally and physically! I have acknowledged a noticeable decrease in my verbal skills when under extreme emotional stress - and would very much like to learn techniques for controlling RTPV etc. under duress. To an extent I try this - but I know that aspects of RTPV often betray my inner emotions. In a threatening situation I would like to learn a better method if one exists.

In a dojo environment - I still don't like use of "garbage mouth" unless it is for a special class and advance notice is given.

ESPECIALLY for new students - and even more so for females. To my belief - practice of this type of verbal abusive situational training on a regular basis will drive almost all women out of the dojo pretty quickly.

Now you've got four cents Len-san!



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Lori
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2000 1:26 pm 
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That was a great story Panther.
Once again, you do not fail to bring up a good example to discuss!

After listening to Tony Blauer’s tape on Cerebral Self-Defense, I have to say that what ever you do to make the situation not turn to violence makes you a winner.

However, Tony says, "Do not fight fire with fire" as we have always been told, "fight fire with water!"

He states “a lot of women are shocked by types of profanity and go into semi paralysis of someone who is really swearing in a street kind of way. Isn’t that starting the victim mindset already?” As long as you can take a verbal blasting and not be annoyed by it you are already one step ahead of your confronter.

Good point he brings up here. Most women get so shocked at such vile language that they become speechless. Panther’s sister did not react that way and actually went somewhat against the grain of what Tony was implying in his tape, although not entirely. Tony goes on to say that a successful diffusion of any situation must begin by being proactive, and to establish a mindset needed to deal with the situation. This is exactly what she did. In this case, by giving back the same verbal abuse that she was receiving, she showed confidence that ultimately shocked her provoker.

Tony also said that, most attackers are looking for easy prey. This guy thought that he could intimidate Panther’s sister who is small in stature. By fighting back verbally, which is exactly what you should do first, the attacker knew that she was not going to back down to his vocal threats. What ever you do, without resorting to physical violence is a win-win situation.

Remember that all situations are unique. The same two people in the same place on a different day (maybe the guy was too drunk and stunned himself), and the results could turn out different. What would Panther’s sister have done if the man had slapped her? (I can guess what Panther would have done Image) Was she prepared to act on a physical retaliation if it came?

This is the mindset you must have while using VSD. Never let your guard down. Have a back up plan.

Many Thanks to Tony Blauer for letting me quote from his tape. I learned a lot from it.


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Len Testa


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2000 6:38 pm 
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Len, Jake-
Thanks. Also to Tony for teaching this stuff. Good advice.

Jake, you sure are right, Len too.

Fight fire with water.Yes.

Now to have that water handy. Image

This is an interesting forum.For years I have had the capacity to deal with physical threats in many cases, but the verbal/emotional hijackers occasonally got me. Used to hate myself aftwerwards. Image

Then I realized, what if you can make these guys look really stupid, and laugh them off the planet?

Man that worked.

Here's one that works at work: I call it the Clark Kent/Landshark approach.

You got someone always in your face, verbally, threatening like its going to become physical.

Act pleasant like you totally don't see what they are up to.Keep aware in case they escalate, but they never have.

Then some time when they are in the area watching, you act like you don't know the are there, and do a kata or some few moves, then come whistling down the Hall.

Its likeyou physically hit them.Clark Kent(keep acting friendly and oblivious) turns out to be the Landshark. Image

So the guy asks me(yes I did:-), 'Are you going to kick my ass?'And I tell him, Oh, no, my martial art only works if you try to kick my ass. Then I can kill you and any six of your friends easily. Have a nice day! Image Here's the vsd: say this right and they will believe you.Sort of matter of fact, even deadpan.But smile!

And the Landshark, smiling, moves off along the side of the Hall, whistling Sweet Georgia Brown.

Remember: Power perceived is power achieved.Keep alert and you won't get hurt.

Superman even disguised himself as Clark Kent.There was a reason.

Remember the famous saying in Roadhouse?'When they get in your facre, be nice.When they threaten you, be nice. When you ask them to leave, be nice. Be nice, until its time NOT to be nice.'

Then go from zero to Tiger Eating Bastard in one tenth of a second.

That emotional hijacking works both ways.When its time not to be nice, be mean,fast.Don't play act arounbdm, then, get it done and over with, and be very, very , nasty!

And then, be nice.:-)

It freaks them out.
Kusanku




[This message has been edited by kusanku (edited August 23, 2000).]


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2000 9:12 pm 
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This is really a good discussion. Lori-Sensei's insights and Panther's story have me thinking....

Remember that beach incident I told you folks about a while back? Well, when I finnaly did talk things over with "ma woman", she had shocked me with her response.

I asked her "What would you have done if the guy esculated the verbal abuse and directed it clearly at you?"

She responded, "Well, since I would not expect him to hit ME (its not right to hit girls you know Image ), I would get right in his face and give it back to him!" I was shocked by this, and more than a bit concerned! However, after reading Lori's posts I see my girl's intuition/response were right on the money!

Then again, I am thinking "what if this happened in front of ME!" What would I experience, how far would I let things go before I did something extreme, and stupid. (Or even extremly stupid! Image )

Panther, how did you feel during this exchange? What thoughts/emotions were rising? Did you get a chemical dump? If so, how severe?

I just don't know if I could control myself.... I wonder if our vsd tactics should change depending on who we happen to be with at the time... for instance what if my vsd strategy does not flow well with hers? I'm thinking I could have easily blundered up my sister's strategy(if I were in Panther's place), not realizing hers would do the trick...



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2000 10:19 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BILLY B:

Panther, how did you feel during this exchange?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummmm.... scared $hitless? Yeah, that's 'bout right.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
What thoughts/emotions were rising?


I was thinking she's gonna get herself, me or both into a world of hurt! I was getting upset with her for taking on this hulk and I was pi$$ed at him for being such an @$$!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Did you get a chemical dump? If so, how severe?


Yes... my hands were shaking, I was sweating like a pig and when I did talk, my voice cracked like a 14 year old! Sounds bad... it felt worse!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
I just don't know if I could control myself.... I wonder if our vsd tactics should change depending on who we happen to be with at the time... for instance what if my vsd strategy does not flow well with hers? I'm thinking I could have easily blundered up my sister's strategy(if I were in Panther's place), not realizing hers would do the trick...


Hell, SHE didn't know it'd do the trick and I'm not even sure the concept of VSD was publicized much at that point in history... it was over 20 years ago! (Oops, did I date myself? Am I really that old? Darn... Image

I could have and nearly did mess it up myself by stepping in when she slide off her bar-stool... The only reason I didn't was because it was so unexpected and actually comical looking to watch her climb the leg-rails like a ladder, get up on the stool and stand up! By the time I'd picked my jaw up from watching her do that, she had this guy firmly by the collar and was turning the air bluer than blue. If he hadn't have responded the way he did, I very well might not be posting this now... Image


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2000 3:53 am 
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You are absolutely right when you say that women aren't the only ones affected by the "garbage mouth". There was a time that I would literally not be able to speak when assaulted in this manner. I would experience excruciating pain in the kidney area that would cause me to just about drop. It took a long time for me to discover what this represented and channel it.

It's so much more fun to have alternatives.

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David
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2000 6:47 am 
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Walking the streets of a seedy town, recently, I saw two women strolling on the sidewalk become the target of verbal taunts by a couple of a scruffy losers sitting down across the street about twenty feet from an ATM machine, late at night!

One of the women responded aggressively with the foulest of language. That response shut down the stinking punks like magic.

Some time that’s what it takes to send a clear message [ shutting down the interview] !

Make sure you got the balls and the "tools" to back it up. Image


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