As suggested by RA Miller, I also believe that we should develop a basic kihon for recognizing, understanding, diffusing and avoiding confrontations before they turn violent.
There are many tapes and seminars available for the average person to the proffesional for handling emotions and confrontations.
Most of these people do not have the ability to inflict the kind of "physical damage" that a martial artist can. It is very important for them to use these skills to avoid phsical harm.
I belive that we as martial artist also have an obligation to avoid using our learned skills whenever possible.
Help us develop a kihon that we can use in our dojos to train our students on this most often ignored first line of defense.
------------------
Len Testa
VSD Kihon
Moderator: gmattson
VSD Kihon
Len-
To recap so far for kihon we have two stances: palms showing, relaxed but feet bladed for quick action and the Columbo-dachi.
RTPV, roughly equivalent to body mechanics/ relaxation and the breath control aspects of more physical combatives.
And one technique: "I'm sorry, ..."
In "meta-kihon" (that's a good word. I invented that word! Woo Hoo!) we may need to look at goals and assumptions. Why do people study karate instead of judo? Because their goals and assumptions are different.
Types of interpersonal conflict:
Predatory. The stalker, the surprise, the blitz the pack.
Social. Territory, face saving. The bar brawl, the challenge fight, the Monkey Dance.
Pathological. The abusive relationship.
The VSD for each of the types of violence will be vastly different. These are our assumptions about what the situation will be.
Goals
Take control. Turn the tables. No victims here. I will be boss. Counter woofer. Very common in Law Enforcement.
Defuse. Appease and apologize. Any avoidance of physical conflict is seen as a win.
Context change. Turn enemy to friend. Change the relationship. Left field solutions.
These assumption/goal combinations lead to styles. Pathological/defuse would be a bad combination for example. But many try it.
Changing the relationship can be incredibly powerful. Any interaction between people creates a relationship, however brief. If one sees it as a face saving need to prove manhood by single combat... there's no rule that says you have to see it that way or respond on that level.
What else? I guess I got off the subject of recapping.
Rory
[This message has been edited by RA Miller (edited August 19, 2000).]
To recap so far for kihon we have two stances: palms showing, relaxed but feet bladed for quick action and the Columbo-dachi.
RTPV, roughly equivalent to body mechanics/ relaxation and the breath control aspects of more physical combatives.
And one technique: "I'm sorry, ..."
In "meta-kihon" (that's a good word. I invented that word! Woo Hoo!) we may need to look at goals and assumptions. Why do people study karate instead of judo? Because their goals and assumptions are different.
Types of interpersonal conflict:
Predatory. The stalker, the surprise, the blitz the pack.
Social. Territory, face saving. The bar brawl, the challenge fight, the Monkey Dance.
Pathological. The abusive relationship.
The VSD for each of the types of violence will be vastly different. These are our assumptions about what the situation will be.
Goals
Take control. Turn the tables. No victims here. I will be boss. Counter woofer. Very common in Law Enforcement.
Defuse. Appease and apologize. Any avoidance of physical conflict is seen as a win.
Context change. Turn enemy to friend. Change the relationship. Left field solutions.
These assumption/goal combinations lead to styles. Pathological/defuse would be a bad combination for example. But many try it.
Changing the relationship can be incredibly powerful. Any interaction between people creates a relationship, however brief. If one sees it as a face saving need to prove manhood by single combat... there's no rule that says you have to see it that way or respond on that level.
What else? I guess I got off the subject of recapping.
Rory
[This message has been edited by RA Miller (edited August 19, 2000).]
VSD Kihon
He might be talking about the Monkey King in Chinese mythology?
I also believe he has covered about everything one can do, accept maybe taking a strike from the other and walking away.
Would we go that far as to take a hit?
Is ones own karma playing a part here?
[This message has been edited by crazycat (edited August 20, 2000).]
I also believe he has covered about everything one can do, accept maybe taking a strike from the other and walking away.
Would we go that far as to take a hit?
Is ones own karma playing a part here?
[This message has been edited by crazycat (edited August 20, 2000).]
VSD Kihon
The Monkey Dance:
"You and me baby ain't nothin but mammals
"So let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel"
Almost all mammals have a specific ritual for territorial or status contests. Humans are no exception but we _hate_ being told we're hard wired to do anything.
Almost every status fight (which is 90%+) follows a very specific pattern:
1) Hard stare.
2) Verbal Challenge. "What you lookin at?"
3) More Verbal with gross muscle movement, usually arm waving. (This is why I call it the Monkey Dance.. it is literally two monkeys doing their innate territorial display.)
4) Either a chest push or a finger poke in the chest.
5) Strike.
This whole thing is hard-wired. Like most ritual combat between males of the same species it is rare for anyone to be seriously hurt.. but it still happens.
The thing to remember about the Monkey Dance is that once you begin, you are not in charge. Your hardwiring is. You are not playing the dance, the dance is playing you!
Rory
"You and me baby ain't nothin but mammals
"So let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel"
Almost all mammals have a specific ritual for territorial or status contests. Humans are no exception but we _hate_ being told we're hard wired to do anything.
Almost every status fight (which is 90%+) follows a very specific pattern:
1) Hard stare.
2) Verbal Challenge. "What you lookin at?"
3) More Verbal with gross muscle movement, usually arm waving. (This is why I call it the Monkey Dance.. it is literally two monkeys doing their innate territorial display.)
4) Either a chest push or a finger poke in the chest.
5) Strike.
This whole thing is hard-wired. Like most ritual combat between males of the same species it is rare for anyone to be seriously hurt.. but it still happens.
The thing to remember about the Monkey Dance is that once you begin, you are not in charge. Your hardwiring is. You are not playing the dance, the dance is playing you!
Rory
VSD Kihon
Rory:
That is a good outline to begin.
"Meta-kihon"...sounds good to me.
crazycat:
Let's not jump too far ahead but...Most states allow defense tactics if the threat is imminent and ongoing. If a person strikes and you defend immediately you are covered. If the person strikes and you do not defend (take the hit or duck the attack only) and then the person stops attacking, you have no right to attack back. We will explore this situation as we put the kihon together.
A good starting point would be:
VSD Kihon
Step One: Recognition
Recognizing what type of situation is at hand will detrmine the steps to avoid diffuse and defend if necessary.
Types of Conflicts
<OL TYPE=1> <LI>Stalker <LI>Mugger (surprise) <LI>Territorial <LI>Social <LI>Honor (face saving) <LI>The Brawl <LI>The Challenge <LI>Pathological <LI>Abusive Relationship <LI>Revenge <LI> The Co-Worker/Corporate Bully </OL>
I will edit and add to this list if there is any more.
------------------
Len Testa
[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited August 21, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited September 22, 2000).]
That is a good outline to begin.
"Meta-kihon"...sounds good to me.
crazycat:
Let's not jump too far ahead but...Most states allow defense tactics if the threat is imminent and ongoing. If a person strikes and you defend immediately you are covered. If the person strikes and you do not defend (take the hit or duck the attack only) and then the person stops attacking, you have no right to attack back. We will explore this situation as we put the kihon together.
A good starting point would be:
VSD Kihon
Step One: Recognition
Recognizing what type of situation is at hand will detrmine the steps to avoid diffuse and defend if necessary.
Types of Conflicts
<OL TYPE=1> <LI>Stalker <LI>Mugger (surprise) <LI>Territorial <LI>Social <LI>Honor (face saving) <LI>The Brawl <LI>The Challenge <LI>Pathological <LI>Abusive Relationship <LI>Revenge <LI> The Co-Worker/Corporate Bully </OL>
I will edit and add to this list if there is any more.
------------------
Len Testa
[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited August 21, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited September 22, 2000).]
VSD Kihon
THE MUGGER
How would VSD work on a mugger?
What could you use as an opening line against a person who wants your money?
Any suggestions we can accumulate for a scenario training.
------------------
Len Testa
How would VSD work on a mugger?
What could you use as an opening line against a person who wants your money?
Any suggestions we can accumulate for a scenario training.
------------------
Len Testa
VSD Kihon
How about:
"You want my money? No problem, here you go..." This will buy you some time (while the mugger is waiting for you to reach into your pocket) to come up with a more effective reaction. The mugger may let his guard down, as he thinks he's got your money already.
If you feel more challenging, you can say something like: "do you really wanna die for twenty bucks?" Here, one must be really confident because this is just asking for an attack but at least you are prepared for it. Also, this wouldn't work well against an armed mugger.
Any thoughts on this...?
Vladimir.
"You want my money? No problem, here you go..." This will buy you some time (while the mugger is waiting for you to reach into your pocket) to come up with a more effective reaction. The mugger may let his guard down, as he thinks he's got your money already.
If you feel more challenging, you can say something like: "do you really wanna die for twenty bucks?" Here, one must be really confident because this is just asking for an attack but at least you are prepared for it. Also, this wouldn't work well against an armed mugger.
Any thoughts on this...?
Vladimir.
VSD Kihon
OK, my only path to escape is through the mugger. That doesn't leave me much choice, but to fight. Now if he has a gun, - here is my wallet. I can get new credit cards and license. Not worth catching a bullet for.
Assuming he has a knife, like you said, "always keep him occupied" I would fake being nervous and drop my wallet on the ground closer to the mugger. As he bends down to pick it up I would attack. If the knife is out in front, I go for the wrist, if not, well... a good kick in the temple should clear my path.
I once had to fight off a drunken guy back home. He had a small knife and I picked up a tree branch (a thick one). I admit that I was pretty scared and was swinging the branch like crazy. He never even got close to me. Sometimes it helps if your weapon is longer that your opponent's.
I am still thinking of other things one can do.....
Vladimir
Assuming he has a knife, like you said, "always keep him occupied" I would fake being nervous and drop my wallet on the ground closer to the mugger. As he bends down to pick it up I would attack. If the knife is out in front, I go for the wrist, if not, well... a good kick in the temple should clear my path.
I once had to fight off a drunken guy back home. He had a small knife and I picked up a tree branch (a thick one). I admit that I was pretty scared and was swinging the branch like crazy. He never even got close to me. Sometimes it helps if your weapon is longer that your opponent's.
I am still thinking of other things one can do.....
Vladimir
VSD Kihon
Testa-sempai,
Makes no difference... If he is empty-handed and it's one-on-one, I laugh and say "you want my money? Just you?!?! This should be fun..." Now, if he pulls a knife or a gun, he's made the choice to escalate the encounter... too bad... When I reach for my wallet (It's not in the traditional manner... BTW) I just shoot him through my pocket... Powder burns are far better than hospital or coffin time!
Same goes if there are more than one...
I once stopped four guys from attacking me by responding, "Just the four of you? Thats it? Fine... let's have some fun..." Crazed look in the eye... (Obvious) Fighting stance... and a more than slight psycho-laugh worked that time. (Almost had to change the undershorts after they finally decided to fine easier pickin though...
)
Makes no difference... If he is empty-handed and it's one-on-one, I laugh and say "you want my money? Just you?!?! This should be fun..." Now, if he pulls a knife or a gun, he's made the choice to escalate the encounter... too bad... When I reach for my wallet (It's not in the traditional manner... BTW) I just shoot him through my pocket... Powder burns are far better than hospital or coffin time!
Same goes if there are more than one...
I once stopped four guys from attacking me by responding, "Just the four of you? Thats it? Fine... let's have some fun..." Crazed look in the eye... (Obvious) Fighting stance... and a more than slight psycho-laugh worked that time. (Almost had to change the undershorts after they finally decided to fine easier pickin though...
)VSD Kihon
Npt a mugging, but being scoped for a mass attack-
I started rhytmically jerking my head to one side (tardive dyskinesia- the infamous thorazine twitch) and holding a frantic conversation with Jesus and Elvis... worked fine.
Rory
I started rhytmically jerking my head to one side (tardive dyskinesia- the infamous thorazine twitch) and holding a frantic conversation with Jesus and Elvis... worked fine.
Rory
VSD Kihon
Very good Vladimir. Never stop thinking, and try to keep him occupied.
In this situation (since you are being mugged) there are no witnesses and your path to escape is blocked. you must go through the mugger to get out of the area.
You tell him "OK, I'll give you the money" But he doesn't hear any fear in your voice.
As you reach into your pocket to retreive your wallet, he says "If I see anything other than a wallet come out of your pocket I will cut you", and he shows a knife. Then he says. "Give me the wallet".
What will you do next?
Will you give up the wallet with your credit cards and your license which has your home address?
If not...can you attempt to persuade him to only take the money, and to let you go without hurting or killing you?
------------------
Len Testa
In this situation (since you are being mugged) there are no witnesses and your path to escape is blocked. you must go through the mugger to get out of the area.
You tell him "OK, I'll give you the money" But he doesn't hear any fear in your voice.
As you reach into your pocket to retreive your wallet, he says "If I see anything other than a wallet come out of your pocket I will cut you", and he shows a knife. Then he says. "Give me the wallet".
What will you do next?
Will you give up the wallet with your credit cards and your license which has your home address?
If not...can you attempt to persuade him to only take the money, and to let you go without hurting or killing you?
------------------
Len Testa
VSD Kihon
One thing that I liked about Tony Blauer's Cerebral Self-Defense tape was when he stated that to become proficient in deterring an attacker you must think like a mugger would think.
If I was a mugger what would I do if...
The person dropped his walllet.
Do not bend over to pick it up. Order him to back away and turn around.
Tried to attack me.
Stab or shoot immediately.
Ran for cover or around me.
Shoot or attack immediately.
You have got to realize that anybody who makes mugging a career is pretty good at it.
Probably as good at what he does as what you do for a living. He has seen almost anything that you can do to try to trick him.
I do not think that he would bend over to pick up the wallet. Would you? I would order you to turn around and start walking. Then when you are 4 or 5 steps away, I would pick up the wallet and run.
I would hand my wallet over to the mugger, and let him make the next move. If he does not show a gun or knife and tries to take the wallet out of my hand, I have many practiced options that I can use to attack him at that distance. If he has the gun or knife out I will give him the wallet. As Vladimir stated, you can always get a new wallet, credit cards and license. Is it worth risking your life if the mugger just takes the wallet and makes no attempt to hurt you. The alternative could be a coffin.
As Van put it "it must be pretty lonely in there."
Now if the mugger has the wallet and still makes an attempt at physical harm. Then everything that you have said in the last few posts make sense. I would do any type of combat and act as a viscious animal, (even talk to Elvis
) to keep from getting killed after I have given up my personal possesions. Who knows I might even get my wallet back after I had pummelled him into submission.
I still think that you should surrender your wallet if the attacker has a weapon and you have no readily available weapon other than Martial Arts. I would say anything (VSD) to make the mugger know that I am not going to be a threat to him, such as, "please take my wallet and go. I wont move until you are gone". If he goes away without hurting me and has my wallet, so what. I am still alive and will live to see my children get married and have children of their own. This is more important to me than credit cards, money or a license.
If I was a mugger what would I do if...
The person dropped his walllet.
Do not bend over to pick it up. Order him to back away and turn around.
Tried to attack me.
Stab or shoot immediately.
Ran for cover or around me.
Shoot or attack immediately.
You have got to realize that anybody who makes mugging a career is pretty good at it.
Probably as good at what he does as what you do for a living. He has seen almost anything that you can do to try to trick him.
I do not think that he would bend over to pick up the wallet. Would you? I would order you to turn around and start walking. Then when you are 4 or 5 steps away, I would pick up the wallet and run.
I would hand my wallet over to the mugger, and let him make the next move. If he does not show a gun or knife and tries to take the wallet out of my hand, I have many practiced options that I can use to attack him at that distance. If he has the gun or knife out I will give him the wallet. As Vladimir stated, you can always get a new wallet, credit cards and license. Is it worth risking your life if the mugger just takes the wallet and makes no attempt to hurt you. The alternative could be a coffin.
As Van put it "it must be pretty lonely in there."
Now if the mugger has the wallet and still makes an attempt at physical harm. Then everything that you have said in the last few posts make sense. I would do any type of combat and act as a viscious animal, (even talk to Elvis
) to keep from getting killed after I have given up my personal possesions. Who knows I might even get my wallet back after I had pummelled him into submission. I still think that you should surrender your wallet if the attacker has a weapon and you have no readily available weapon other than Martial Arts. I would say anything (VSD) to make the mugger know that I am not going to be a threat to him, such as, "please take my wallet and go. I wont move until you are gone". If he goes away without hurting me and has my wallet, so what. I am still alive and will live to see my children get married and have children of their own. This is more important to me than credit cards, money or a license.
VSD Kihon
Len,
I agree with you 100%. I don't even have children yet, and I am the last male in my family.
Would you say that in most cases the mugger will pick his victim and will do so hoping that there is no resistance to his actions? If so then my attack would be a surprise to him and that is half of success already. Please let me know if I am mistaken.
Vladimir.
I agree with you 100%. I don't even have children yet, and I am the last male in my family.
Would you say that in most cases the mugger will pick his victim and will do so hoping that there is no resistance to his actions? If so then my attack would be a surprise to him and that is half of success already. Please let me know if I am mistaken.
Vladimir.
