Knowing next to nothing of JJ... What is the difference between Gracie/Brazilian JJ and other instances of JJ? Is Gracie JJ represenative of BJJ or is there major differences between BJJ styles? How does Small Circle fit in??
Would you please post your replies so that a newbie like me can understand them (no japanese terms for example)
thanks
BJJ
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Jake Steinmann
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GJJ and BJJ are more or less the same thing. There might be some minor differences, but the focus is more or less the same.
BJJ tends to place a great emphasis on ground work and ground control, more so than any traditional japanese jujitsu style. Judo contains the same kind of ground work, but most modern judo schools tend to focus on throws over ground work. The ideal balance is somewhere in between.
Traditional Japanese jujitsu tends to place an emphasis on standing throws and locks.
BJJ and Judo (some fascinating posts on their relationship in the Judo Q&A at [url=http://www.mma.com),]www.mma.com),[/url] both place a heavy emphasis on free-style grappling/combat in practice. Most traditional JJ styles do not.
Small circle jj I know little about, save that Wally Jay was apparently a judo player in his youth. Wally Jay has spent most of his life developing the small circle theory, and changed the name of his teachings to reflect this.
My .002, for what it's worth...
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
BJJ tends to place a great emphasis on ground work and ground control, more so than any traditional japanese jujitsu style. Judo contains the same kind of ground work, but most modern judo schools tend to focus on throws over ground work. The ideal balance is somewhere in between.
Traditional Japanese jujitsu tends to place an emphasis on standing throws and locks.
BJJ and Judo (some fascinating posts on their relationship in the Judo Q&A at [url=http://www.mma.com),]www.mma.com),[/url] both place a heavy emphasis on free-style grappling/combat in practice. Most traditional JJ styles do not.
Small circle jj I know little about, save that Wally Jay was apparently a judo player in his youth. Wally Jay has spent most of his life developing the small circle theory, and changed the name of his teachings to reflect this.
My .002, for what it's worth...
Jake
------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
BJJ
Tracy,
Similar to what Jake said. I think Brazilian Jujitsu can be traced back to Carlos Gracie around the turn of the century. Gracie studied with Mitsuyo Maeda for about a year and continued to practice on his own after Maeda returned Japan.
Maeda was on delegation sent by Jigaro Kano to demonstrate for Teddy R. After the demonstration, Maeda traveled a bit in the West with a stopover in Brazil...
BJJ's focus is more on one-to-one conflict/competition. Given the history, you can see why as it goes back Maeda to Kano who was already organizing "competition" as a form of physical education and "Do." Kano eliminated the "dangerous" techniques of jujitsu from competition but prominent Kodakan members were said to know them as they came from jujitsu backgrounds. Judo competition emphasize throws AND finishing holds on the ground. Gracie seemed to have taken the emphasis more to the groundwork with the assumption that everything pretty much ends up there and gets finished there.
There is no doubt that BJJ is very effective for a one on one fight as employed by a skilled practitioner. Whether this means it is an effective "combat" art depends on how one wants to define "combat." Donn Draeger defined combat arts as those that train in a variety of weapons usage. "Empty hand" training was but a minor component of these arts, providing the proponent a desperate last chance when the caught without a weapon. Draeger's contention was that one doesn't go into "combat" to fight empty handed. Implicitly, one doesn't want to automatically go the ground either since the combat scenario would include more than just two combatants. And the combatants would be armed.
Traditional jujutsu evolved from the minor arts part of whole system approach. With this in mind, much of the jujutsu moves favor stand up fighting: throwing, locking and disarming. Once the opponent is on the ground, the proponent tries to kill the opponent with either his own weapon or that taken from the other. He is not going for a "submission."
With regard to Small Circle, Evan Pantazi could give a better answer. But it seems to have taken the larger "circles" in some of the jujutsu techniques and reduced them to more minimalist though no less effective smaller circles, with concentration/leverage on the very small, vulnerable fingers and joints as opposed to the larger wrist and elbow joints. I could be wrong here...
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited September 21, 2000).]
Similar to what Jake said. I think Brazilian Jujitsu can be traced back to Carlos Gracie around the turn of the century. Gracie studied with Mitsuyo Maeda for about a year and continued to practice on his own after Maeda returned Japan.
Maeda was on delegation sent by Jigaro Kano to demonstrate for Teddy R. After the demonstration, Maeda traveled a bit in the West with a stopover in Brazil...
BJJ's focus is more on one-to-one conflict/competition. Given the history, you can see why as it goes back Maeda to Kano who was already organizing "competition" as a form of physical education and "Do." Kano eliminated the "dangerous" techniques of jujitsu from competition but prominent Kodakan members were said to know them as they came from jujitsu backgrounds. Judo competition emphasize throws AND finishing holds on the ground. Gracie seemed to have taken the emphasis more to the groundwork with the assumption that everything pretty much ends up there and gets finished there.
There is no doubt that BJJ is very effective for a one on one fight as employed by a skilled practitioner. Whether this means it is an effective "combat" art depends on how one wants to define "combat." Donn Draeger defined combat arts as those that train in a variety of weapons usage. "Empty hand" training was but a minor component of these arts, providing the proponent a desperate last chance when the caught without a weapon. Draeger's contention was that one doesn't go into "combat" to fight empty handed. Implicitly, one doesn't want to automatically go the ground either since the combat scenario would include more than just two combatants. And the combatants would be armed.
Traditional jujutsu evolved from the minor arts part of whole system approach. With this in mind, much of the jujutsu moves favor stand up fighting: throwing, locking and disarming. Once the opponent is on the ground, the proponent tries to kill the opponent with either his own weapon or that taken from the other. He is not going for a "submission."
With regard to Small Circle, Evan Pantazi could give a better answer. But it seems to have taken the larger "circles" in some of the jujutsu techniques and reduced them to more minimalist though no less effective smaller circles, with concentration/leverage on the very small, vulnerable fingers and joints as opposed to the larger wrist and elbow joints. I could be wrong here...
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited September 21, 2000).]
BJJ
excellent replies...thanks..
BJJ
So which *style* of JJ do you think would blend most seemlessly with an old Uechi guy??
why??
why??
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Jake Steinmann
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Well...which one do you like?
Sorry...couldn't resist.
I suppose it depends on what your goals are. Judo and BJJ are both great arts (when well taught). Judo tends to work on throws more often, and will likely give you a great ability to pick someone up and dump them on their head. BJJ will tend to give you awesome ground grappling/submission skills. (Note: Not the same thing as good groundFIGHTING skills, which is a quite different animal).
If you're looking for some really hard-core, street oriented Jujitsu, check out Walt Lysak's Sento Method (will get back with a web address soon). One of the PDR guys, Phil Hughes, did some work with Walt, and his ground skills are phenomenal. I can only imagine what Walt is like (though I intend to find out...).
Aikido and Uechi can compliment each other well, but most Aikido schools are a little too much into foo-foo dust and mystical powers for my taste (speaking as a Shodon in the art).
I like Judo and Bjj because they include free-style practice within their cirriculums, and dammit, I like rolling with people. But that's a purely visceral thing...
I suppose it depends on what you're looking to do.
Cannot comment on other jujitsu systems, never having any real exposure to them. I'm sure Mr. Murphy would agree that his system of Jujitsu (Nihon, yes Mike?) blends pretty well with Uechi..but I know squat about it, so I will let him comment.
In the end, find a teacher you like and that works for you (though I think you knew that already...).
You might also investigate some of the "other" grappling arts out there...Sambo, Chin Na, Shuai Jiao, ect...
Many cultures are good at dumping people on their heads and making them into a pretzel...
My .002 of appropriate denomination (no refunds, please
)
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
Sorry...couldn't resist.
I suppose it depends on what your goals are. Judo and BJJ are both great arts (when well taught). Judo tends to work on throws more often, and will likely give you a great ability to pick someone up and dump them on their head. BJJ will tend to give you awesome ground grappling/submission skills. (Note: Not the same thing as good groundFIGHTING skills, which is a quite different animal).
If you're looking for some really hard-core, street oriented Jujitsu, check out Walt Lysak's Sento Method (will get back with a web address soon). One of the PDR guys, Phil Hughes, did some work with Walt, and his ground skills are phenomenal. I can only imagine what Walt is like (though I intend to find out...).
Aikido and Uechi can compliment each other well, but most Aikido schools are a little too much into foo-foo dust and mystical powers for my taste (speaking as a Shodon in the art).
I like Judo and Bjj because they include free-style practice within their cirriculums, and dammit, I like rolling with people. But that's a purely visceral thing...
I suppose it depends on what you're looking to do.
Cannot comment on other jujitsu systems, never having any real exposure to them. I'm sure Mr. Murphy would agree that his system of Jujitsu (Nihon, yes Mike?) blends pretty well with Uechi..but I know squat about it, so I will let him comment.
In the end, find a teacher you like and that works for you (though I think you knew that already...).
You might also investigate some of the "other" grappling arts out there...Sambo, Chin Na, Shuai Jiao, ect...
Many cultures are good at dumping people on their heads and making them into a pretzel...
My .002 of appropriate denomination (no refunds, please
)Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
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Raffi Derderian
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Tracey,
Look into Shootwrestling as well. BJJ seems to really address the ground, whereas Shoot has a whole range of stand up that is emphasized as well. The stand up is simply Muay Thai.
Raf
Look into Shootwrestling as well. BJJ seems to really address the ground, whereas Shoot has a whole range of stand up that is emphasized as well. The stand up is simply Muay Thai.
Raf
BJJ
Tracy,
You've been around. I am sure you're welcomed (how presumptious of me...) at Mike Murphy's and Jack Summers if you want to check out the standup variety of JJ. For the horizontal version, give a call to Joe P and Josh W, or Joe Bellone at Gary K's, or Jim Deluca who is (or used to hang) at Gary k's. Visiting will give you a taste. Whether you want to go regularly those places, or somewhere else, can be decided later after you get some hands on info to work with.
Trying is the best way to know. Time permitting, you may even want to do both.
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited September 22, 2000).]
You've been around. I am sure you're welcomed (how presumptious of me...) at Mike Murphy's and Jack Summers if you want to check out the standup variety of JJ. For the horizontal version, give a call to Joe P and Josh W, or Joe Bellone at Gary K's, or Jim Deluca who is (or used to hang) at Gary k's. Visiting will give you a taste. Whether you want to go regularly those places, or somewhere else, can be decided later after you get some hands on info to work with.
Trying is the best way to know. Time permitting, you may even want to do both.
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited September 22, 2000).]
BJJ
T Rose! david's right - just do it.
However, from an older guy's perspective (40), I can tell you that the body doesn't rebound from a tough evening of grappling as quickly as it used to. And the ukemi at the traditional jujitsu dojos or in the judo schools is rough on the lower back, even when you fall "correctly" on the mats.
The knowledge gained from randori is priceless, but the pain lasts for a week or more (smile).
BJJ and groundfighting seem to be a young man's sport. Traditional Judo and jujitsu are not less strenuous, although the focus is more on "stand-up" techniques rather than ground fighting. (disclaimer - two of the toughest groundfighter's I've grappled with were 45+ year old judo black belts).
I'm now re-evaluating my training. How long can you ground and pound? How many UFC fighters are our age (Van Clief (spelling?)).
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D. Steven White
swhite@umassd.edu
However, from an older guy's perspective (40), I can tell you that the body doesn't rebound from a tough evening of grappling as quickly as it used to. And the ukemi at the traditional jujitsu dojos or in the judo schools is rough on the lower back, even when you fall "correctly" on the mats.
The knowledge gained from randori is priceless, but the pain lasts for a week or more (smile).
BJJ and groundfighting seem to be a young man's sport. Traditional Judo and jujitsu are not less strenuous, although the focus is more on "stand-up" techniques rather than ground fighting. (disclaimer - two of the toughest groundfighter's I've grappled with were 45+ year old judo black belts).
I'm now re-evaluating my training. How long can you ground and pound? How many UFC fighters are our age (Van Clief (spelling?)).
------------------
D. Steven White
swhite@umassd.edu
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Joseph Bellone
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BJJ
Great points by everyone. The only thing that I'd like to mention is that, if BJJ is taught properly, it doesn't have to be only for the young. I'm also Steve's age and I see a major deficiency in the teaching method. Most instructors teach it in a way that will discourage the non-college age male student. It doesn't have to be this way. Like any art it's all in the teaching method.
Tracy,
Gary Khoury and I spoke about this on Wednesday night. I think something really good can come from this.
For me, it all boiled down to where I was deficient in my fighting skill set. Uechi-ryu provided me with excellent standup striking skills. From the Chinese internal arts, I had a pretty good feeling of how to pummel and throw. Where I was weak was on the ground. Initially, I started BJJ just to plug up the holes in my fighting skill set. It just depends on what your goals are and what you want to accomplish. Talk to you soon.
good training,
Joe
Tracy,
Gary Khoury and I spoke about this on Wednesday night. I think something really good can come from this.
For me, it all boiled down to where I was deficient in my fighting skill set. Uechi-ryu provided me with excellent standup striking skills. From the Chinese internal arts, I had a pretty good feeling of how to pummel and throw. Where I was weak was on the ground. Initially, I started BJJ just to plug up the holes in my fighting skill set. It just depends on what your goals are and what you want to accomplish. Talk to you soon.
good training,
Joe
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f.Channell
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BJJ
Steve,
When did you get old? What did they do to you in Asia? You didn't seem so old last time we were on the mat!
I think the important thing in matwork is learning to break those falls (good mats help out a lot here). I compare it to arm conditioning in uechi, it has to be done on a regular basis or your going to hurt. The worse thing in the world however is the first time your on your back and theres nothing you can do about it.
Jake,
I find the judo guys grapple on the mats after class and everyone has left, usually the higher ranks. The rules of the sport 30-45 seconds to pin, kind of force most players to stick to the throws where they can get more points.
f.
When did you get old? What did they do to you in Asia? You didn't seem so old last time we were on the mat!
I think the important thing in matwork is learning to break those falls (good mats help out a lot here). I compare it to arm conditioning in uechi, it has to be done on a regular basis or your going to hurt. The worse thing in the world however is the first time your on your back and theres nothing you can do about it.
Jake,
I find the judo guys grapple on the mats after class and everyone has left, usually the higher ranks. The rules of the sport 30-45 seconds to pin, kind of force most players to stick to the throws where they can get more points.
f.
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Jake Steinmann
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F.
Didn't mean to imply that Judo guys don't do groundwork. Good judo includes as much variety of groundwork as bjj (note: That's GOOD judo). But they do place a greater emphasis on throws, particularly for competition. After all...that's how you win in judo competition.
Breakfall training is one of the most valuable things I've ever learned in the martial arts. I've gotten into more physical confrontations with the ground in the last few years than I have with human beings...
Can you VSD the pavement as you're falling?
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
Didn't mean to imply that Judo guys don't do groundwork. Good judo includes as much variety of groundwork as bjj (note: That's GOOD judo). But they do place a greater emphasis on throws, particularly for competition. After all...that's how you win in judo competition.
Breakfall training is one of the most valuable things I've ever learned in the martial arts. I've gotten into more physical confrontations with the ground in the last few years than I have with human beings...
Can you VSD the pavement as you're falling?
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
BJJ
"Can you VSD the pavement as you are falling?"
Now that is a LOW BLOW
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Len Testa
Now that is a LOW BLOW
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Len Testa
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Jake Steinmann
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Len,
Hey, it's not like I can SPEAR the pavement either...
No offense meant (I think you realize that, but I like to make sure).
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
Hey, it's not like I can SPEAR the pavement either...
No offense meant (I think you realize that, but I like to make sure).
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
BJJ
The only way to train for this stuff is to walk out on the mat. No amount of conditioning can prepare you for the energy burned by grappling. Mat time = conditioning.
Fred - How have you been? Ok, I'm not that old yet, but am no longer feeling like a spring buck either. Takes me a week or more to recover from my flight home from S.E. Asia. You caught me on a good day the night that we stepped onto the mat. Last time I grappled with Jake, I caught an elbow with my forehead and had a nice mouse for a week. Two weeks ago, Josh caught my big toe with the bottom of his foot and hyper extended it, as well as bending the toenail in half backwards. Makes the wingtips semi uncomfortable.
Tracy - I'd suggest going to Gary's to train with Joe. I went to one of his sessions and found him to be as good of a teacher as he is a grappler!!! He used the Seisan jumpback posture as a reference for the BJJ elbow escape. Everyone there immediately knew what it should look like. It helps that he's a Uechi BB as well.
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D. Steven White
swhite@umassd.edu
Fred - How have you been? Ok, I'm not that old yet, but am no longer feeling like a spring buck either. Takes me a week or more to recover from my flight home from S.E. Asia. You caught me on a good day the night that we stepped onto the mat. Last time I grappled with Jake, I caught an elbow with my forehead and had a nice mouse for a week. Two weeks ago, Josh caught my big toe with the bottom of his foot and hyper extended it, as well as bending the toenail in half backwards. Makes the wingtips semi uncomfortable
.Tracy - I'd suggest going to Gary's to train with Joe. I went to one of his sessions and found him to be as good of a teacher as he is a grappler!!! He used the Seisan jumpback posture as a reference for the BJJ elbow escape. Everyone there immediately knew what it should look like. It helps that he's a Uechi BB as well.
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D. Steven White
swhite@umassd.edu
