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 Post subject: Ground "Kumite"
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2002 8:37 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 252
Location: Brockton, MA 02401
Hey Mike, and others interested in the grappling arts or cross-training in BJJ, I posted this on Van's forum. What do you think?

I finaly did it. I created a kumite that students can practice that will give them the basics the ground skills that can be added to the Uechi that they already have..
I will be teaching the six sets of this two person training tool at George's Summer camp.

I am posting this information because I think it is related to the thread I had started earlier concerning teaching Uechi-Ryu in a non-traditional manner. Even as I look at what I have created at this moment, I see room in its improvement.

I look foreward to input on how the two person set can be improved. It will evolve, and those techniques that are found out-dated or ineffective, will be removed. I am excited by the thought that this "kumite" (for a lack of a better word) will be ever-changing and ever-improving.

This two person set will be part of the curriculum at my school. I know that this training aid will look very different in 10, 20, and, 30 years. Someone will alter it to fit their own fighting style, or new developements in the martial arts community.


Basic R.S.D. two person B.J.J. set

1. From the clinch, the person on the left swims both arms under his opponent’s to secure the body lock. From the body lock, sweep an available leg and end up in the mount position. The person top can choose from the submission set available to him from the mounted position:
a. STRAIGHT ARM LOCK
b. TAKE REAR MOUNT REAR NAKED CHOKE
c. AMERICANA SHOULDER LOCK

2. From the clinch, the person on the left swims both arms under his opponent’s to secure the body lock. From the body lock, sweep an available leg and end up in the mount position. The person on the bottom performs the buck-and-roll mount escape and ends up in the guard. The person on the bottom can choose from a submission set available to him from the guard position:
a. KIMURA SHOULDER LOCK
b. STRAIGHT ARMLOCK
c. TRIANGLE CHOKE
d. GUILLOTINE CHOKE

3. From the clinch, the person on the left swims both arms under his opponent’s to secure the body lock. From the body lock, sweep an available leg and end up in the mount position. The person on the bottom performs the buck-and-roll mount escape and ends up with his opponent (the one that had the mount) in the guard. The person on the bottom can choose from a sweep set to regain a dominant position:
a. SCISSOR LEG REVERSAL…then choose a finish from the mount submission set
b. ELEVATOR SWEEP…then choose a finish from the mount submission set
c. TAKE THE BACK…then perform the rear-naked-choke from the rear mount

4. From a fighting stance, the person on the right slides in with his left foot and performs an arcing haymaker to the person on the left’s hairline (for training safety). The person on the left changes levels and shoots in under the punch and performs a double leg takedown or a single leg snake takedown. After the takedown, the person acquires the side-mount position and can choose from a submission set available from that position
a. GO TO NORTH-SOUTH, KIMURA
b. TIME-HOLD SHOULDER LOCK
c. KNEE ON CHEST TO STRIKES OR STRAIGHT ARM LOCK

5. From a fighting stance, the person on the right slides in with his left foot and performs an arcing haymaker to the person on the left’s hairline (for training safety). The person on the left changes levels and shoots in under the punch and performs a double leg takedown or a single leg snake takedown. After the takedown, the person acquires the side-mount, holds it, then slides his knee that is closest to his partners feet over his opponent’s belly to the other side. This gives the person on top the mount. The person on top can choose from his submission set available to him from the mounted position:
a. STRAIGHT ARM LOCK
b. TAKE REAR MOUNT TO CHOKE (REAR NAKED CHOKE)
c. AMERICANA SHOULDER LOCK

6. From a fighting stance, the person on the right slides in with his left foot and performs an arcing haymaker to the person on the left’s hairline (for training safety). The person on the left changes levels and shoots in under the punch and performs a double leg takedown or a single leg snake takedown. After the takedown, the person acquires the side-mount. From here, the person on the bottom pushes his hips away, inserts the bottom knee under the person on top and acquires the guard position. The person on the bottom can choose from his submission set available to him from the guard position:
a. KIMURA SHOULDER LOCK
b. STRAIGHT ARMLOCK
c. TRIANGLE CHOKE
d. GUILLOTINE CHOKE

Submissions, sweeps, reversals, and pins covered in the basic R.S.D. two person B.J.J. set.

1. BODY-LOCK TAKEDOWN TO MOUNT

2. DOUBLE OR SINGLE LEG TAKEDOWN TO SIDE MOUNT

3. MOUNTED POSITION
a. buck and roll escape
i. straight arm lock
ii. take rear mount to choke
iii. Americana shoulder lock

4. SIDE MOUNT
a. side mount escape to guard
i. kimura shoulder lock from the north-south position
ii. Americana shoulder lock
iii. knee on chest to strikes or straight arm lock

5. GUARD POSITION
i. scissor leg sweep
ii. elevator sweep
iii. take the back sweep
1. kimura shoulder lock
2. straight arm lock
3. triangle choke
4. guillotine choke


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 Post subject: Ground "Kumite"
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2002 1:22 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 21, 1999 6:01 am
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Location: Valhalla
Joe,
Great idea, although I think technically speaking you have created a Kata!
Judo has 8 which are all 2 person sets, so based on that you have made a Kata.
Pomfret-ryu newaza kata!!
Can't wait to try it.
Fred


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 Post subject: Ground "Kumite"
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2002 1:27 am 
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Location: Valhalla
Joe,
Heres a link to check out the judo kata.
You may find it interesting, needs more pictures though. www.judoinfo.com/katakata.htm
fred


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 Post subject: Ground "Kumite"
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2002 3:14 am 
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Posts: 252
Location: Brockton, MA 02401
Fred, thank you very much.

I wasn't sure what to call it. I'm not quite up to peed on judo terminology. Could you tell me what newaza means?

I realize that I haven't created anything new under the sun. I'm hoping this kata will give my beginner grapplers a foundation, like sanchin, to work with as they begin their training. Also, I'm hoping that Uechi instructors can learn it in order to introduce basic grappling to their students.

Thanks again Fred,

Joe P.


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 Post subject: Ground "Kumite"
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2002 1:34 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 21, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3551
Location: Valhalla
Newaza means matwork.
Katamewaza is grappling techniques.
Doesn't really matter as long as they train the techniques.
It's interesting that the BJJ guys don't have to learn the techniques names in Portuguese.
Half the time at tournaments someone will tell me the guy has a good makikomi watch out and I won't know what their talking about.
Looking forward to the Kata-kumite training with you.
Fred


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 Post subject: Ground "Kumite"
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2002 2:03 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 468
Location: Marlboro,MA US
Hey Joe,

I have a very old book, called something like "the complet 8 kata of Judo" if you would be interested in seeing it...

later


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 Post subject: Ground "Kumite"
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2002 2:08 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 25
Nice work Joe!

I have a few questions:

1. What is the Kimura? It sounds like it might be ude garami: http://www.judoinfo.com/quiz0297_2.htm

If it isn't ude garami, maybe this link will have a picture of the technique: http://www.judoinfo.com/techdrw.htm

2. What is the AMERICANA SHOULDER LOCK?

Do you have a link to a BJJ site with these techniques?

Thanks.

Rich


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 Post subject: Ground "Kumite"
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 1:52 am 
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Location: Valhalla
Joe,
We can't lose the terminology unfortunately. They call points in Japanese, and referee all the contests in Japanese. It does come in handy when working with a foreigner, if you both know the japanese terms you can communicate somewhat.
You don't need it though, If I can't put a japanese term to the BJJ hold it's probably an illegal move for me! In that context anyway.
T.
That book probably isn't what you want its more for refining the Kata, if its by Draeger.
Pick up Best Judo or Kodokan Judo or forget books and check out www.judoinfo.com it's an awesome site, has most of the throws and pins etc... it's real hard to find that stuff on BJJ online anywhere, i've looked quite a bit. I'm thinking about getting a wrestling book at the library, been training with a lot of wrestlers lately.
f.


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 Post subject: Ground "Kumite"
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 4:37 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 12, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 1688
Location: Weymouth, MA US of A
Hi Joe,

(1) Congratulations on making up this kumite/kata/exercise or whatever you want to call it. Is it for sport or self-defense?

(2) PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE show it to us at camp! Perhaps soliciting comments from some other knowledgable people would be helpful in its further development. Maybe you'll see that a different lock or pin or finish or start position might be better here or there. However, that is solely up to you.

(3) Getting rid of names a bit tricky. In old Japan, jujitsu names were cloaked in mystery, b/c the fighting techniques were considered military secrets. The enemy couldn't figure out "Four winds throw", but could decipher "elbow lock". However, when Kano made judo, he dispensed with the esoteric names, and used more common-sense names. So, actually, the Kano/Judo names of throws, holds, chokes etc. are descriptive, and help students learn. Good teachers say, "We are going to learn Osotogari, which means Greater Outer Reaping Throw and it's called this because...".

Some of the more modern (i.e. BJJ or what have you-and this is not a slam at all) names of techniques may have lost the descriptiveness, 'tis why I sort of favor the descriptive names myself. So, ude-gatame might not mean anything to us gaijin, but "arm bar pin" does. However....

I still can't wait to try your new drill!!!

Gene


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 Post subject: Ground "Kumite"
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 5:13 am 
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Posts: 252
Location: Brockton, MA 02401
Yes Rich, the kimura and ude garami are one and the same.

The American shoulder lock is also known as the key-lock or "paint-brush-lock. It's the reverse of the kimura. You can get it from the mount, side-mount, or standing.

As for confusing japanese or Portugese terminology...I say get rid of it. Traditionalists freak out at that thought I'm sure.

Later guys,

Joe P.


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 Post subject: Ground "Kumite"
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 6:21 am 
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Posts: 252
Location: Brockton, MA 02401
Fred, checked out the judo site...it is great.

Gene, thanks for the lesson. Makes a lot of sense.

It's for self defense period. Especialy the take-downs

You said, "Maybe you'll see that a different lock or pin or finish or start position might be better here or there. However, that is solely up to you."

You know what Gene, it's not up to me...it's up to you. This "UECHI RYU NEWAZA KATA" can and should change so that it makes sense and works for the person, like you, training with it that day.

See you on Saturday,

Joe P.

[This message has been edited by Joe Sullivan (edited May 17, 2002).]


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 Post subject: Ground "Kumite"
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 2:15 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 988
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Joe,

Congratulations on the new kumite. It's a great idea. Many of the styles of Jujitsu have two person sets already in their Kyhon Waza (basic sets). In Nihon Jujitsu, they are formalized, but ever developing.

As for the terminology. Maybe we can get together and come up with a glossery between what you call the techniques in BBJ and what some of the Japanese Jujitsu systems call their moves, and even include Aikido terminology. It's a thought.

Here's another thought too. How about creating another kumite down the line incorporating throws from Judo/Jujitsu, the movement of Aikido, and the groundwork/newaza from BBJ? I'd love to help out with that one with you.

Anyway, congrats again and I can't wait until summer camp.

mike


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 Post subject: Ground "Kumite"
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 4:45 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 252
Location: Brockton, MA 02401
Mike, thank you for your response.

I wanted this two-person kata to be as reality based as possible, so I plugged in two takedowns that didn’t require a person to wear a gi top to be held onto.

What are the best, and most simple, judo-Aikido-Nihon Jiu Jitsu takedowns, that will work in a situation where a larger and more aggressive person attacks a much smaller person?

I left out any judo throws that require grabbing the opponent’s clothing for the grip on purpose. The defender may not have the luxury of a double weave kimono to hold onto for a throw.

Two serious questions mike. What happens if a judo practitioner needs to throw or perform a take down when the opponent is not wearing a gi? Not to take anything away from judo or those that practice it! BJJ was born from Judo.

I have never practiced Aikido before. The Aikido I have seen in books or on T.V. seem too flashy for a real fight. Is this a valid point of view? We could say there are some tough Aikido guys out there. But can the average person use it? It’s the average person that we teach.

As for the terminology, I would be honored to get together with you and brainstorm what would work. I look foreword to training with you at George’s summer camp! Are you going to the tournament on Saturday?

With much respect,

Joe P.

PS I would like to hear some responses from others regarding my ideas! (Jim, Fred, anyone)


[This message has been edited by Joe Sullivan (edited May 17, 2002).]


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 Post subject: Ground "Kumite"
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 8:53 pm 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Joe,

There are some throws of the 65 that work much better with the gi or some other clothing (I'm sure Rich or Jim could answer to that well enough), but there are others that would seem to work well with the close-in grappling style that you do...even to a more devastating conclusion. For example, a simple Ogoshi (major hip throw) can be done without a gi, Taiotoshi, Seonage, Yokowakame, Iriminage, Osotogari, just to name a few. Sorry about the Japanese, but that is how I know them. We could work out the kinks if you wanted to.

As for the Aikido, having never trained in it for any period of time, but having been exposed to it on numerous occasions, I'll tell you honestly that I'm not the greatest fan of some of the stuff that they show, but, their movement is incredible. I'm sure you'll agree that movement is extremely important in any training for conflict. Therefore, incorporating some of their movements can't be a bad thing.

Something to think about if you are interested. I think we could put something together that would be pissah (couldn't resist the Bawston thing). Anyway, I'll be at the tournament tomorrow with the gang. I don't think I'll be competing, but I will be judging some stuff.

mike


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 Post subject: Ground "Kumite"
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2002 3:11 am 
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Joe,
The Gi is part of the game, they try to get away with sleeves too short and other tricks all the time. Many of the guys at my last tournament wore a tight Gi and only had to flex and their gi tightened up and their opponents grip was lost. So the Gi is not counted on as much as it used to with Sambo and other stuff changing the art/sport. A leather jacket isn't a bad substitute for a Gi I imagine.
I can only do a few throws I feel comfortable with and I like combined with Uechi. Some of them are the ones Mike mentioned, some of those I got to look up!
Your BJJ takedowns are excellent as well, many of them I see in Judo in one form or another. Jim showed me another nice one at Garys.
I always try to do a link when I mention a technique in Japanese to Judoinfo.com so everyone can check it out.
Theres rumors of a good Aikido guy coming to visit Lenny's, maybe it will happen.
f.


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