Panther said: I never wrote "spur of the moment" crime. I specifically referred to "spur of the moment" shootings and also pointed out the rarity and referred to lawful gun owners as opposed to criminals. The fact is that the gun grabber agenda hasn't done anything to reduce crime by lawful gun owners because that crime is statistically insignificant
Okay, correction taken. The only point I'm making with this tangent is that if gun restrictions did have an effect on "spur of the moment" crimes involving guns (and this is what I'm talking about, not just shootings neccesarily) it would have precisely the effect of making crimes committed by lawful gun owners with their guns become statistically significant. I'm not saying that this has definitely happened, just pointing out that the argument that lawful gun owners commit few crimes with their guns could perfectly well be used as evidence that we're only giving trustworthy people licenses.
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If you or anyone else can't control your own actions/reactions, then I whole heartedly agree that you should not have firearms. Then again, you shouldn't have knives, baseball bats, be allowed to learn a martial art, or be allowed to own and operate the far more deadly automobile<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly my point. Do you think that people should have to get a license to drive cars? How about to fly commercial passenger planes? How about to practice medicine? These are all things that have the potential for catastrophic misuse, how are guns different?
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Suggesting that the crime must include "hacking someone to death" or "where someone just wants to kill someone else" is typical of the HCI misinformation and intellectually dishonest statistical manipulation and lies. My scenerio was to prove a point.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And I think that in order to prove your point you established a scenario that is artificially difficult to intercept. Would you say a statistically significant proportion of home invasions are concluded within the time it took you to conclude your example? I find that hard to believe.
As for the story about the women who was murdered in an undeniably horrible way, I think it is beside the point. Furthermore, you often object to the emotional appeals made by gun control advocates, but putting this story in your post was no better.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How very nice of you to only quote the beginning of my point when responding in that fashion. I said that in order for the police to be capable of protecting each of us that there would by necessity have to be an officer assigned to each of us full-time... and that by definition is a Police State, a place that I don't want to live. But, you cut all that off. But my other part still stands. If we, the people are disarmed, we can NOT defend ourselves or our communities... a Statist's wet dream!
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The only reason I edit the responses is to try and make it clear what I'm responding to. For example, the rhetoric about disarming people being a Statist's wet dream, or the existance of a police state, which I was certainly not arguing for, are not the things I was responding to. Sometimes you say that I am putting words in your mouth, but to me it appears that your statements about a police state are putting words in my mouth. I don't mind so much, and usually I just ignore it when, I'll try to quote your passages in their entirety from now on.
Anyway... the point I was making about the police is that if everyone is allowed a gun, police and citizens alike, the citizens wouldn't be any better at defending eachother than the police.
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As far as the supposed "rebuttals" of Lott's work. First, there's the one from the Aussie gun grabber. You know, the place where they banned guns from private ownership and crime rates have soared. Now that's a place that we want to copy... NOT! Second, there's the one from HCI. You know the folks that have lied, skewed statistics by ommission and misrepresentation and have stated in private memoranda that they A) are willing to intentionally mislead the public in order to further their agenda and B) have the ultimate goal of completely disarming the entire American private citizenry!
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Yes, I will admit they're biased. Guess what, foxnews and the washingtimes, and the reporters who wrote those stories aren't unbiased either. But regardless of bias, did you bother reading their refutations? Do you have anything to say about the problems they spoke of with the study, or did you just assume that because they're in favor of gun control that they must be incorrect? I read one (though I may not have posted it) from someone who claimed to be a gun owner and in favor of guns, but who thought that the study was flawed apart from it's social message. As fr whether HCI lies or not, I'm perfectly willing to believe that any organization is willing to lie for their cause. Gun advocates have just as much reason to lie about their position as gun-control activists. That's why on all of these studies you have to look at what they say closely, and it doesn't sound like you did that.