domestic violence
domestic violence
I don't know if I am posting this in the right field or not...but, I am a student at FSU and wanted to ask you guys a personal question regarding domestic violence, In your opinions, do you feel it is more appropriate and helpful to arrest in domestic violence situations or to be there as a mediator. Or, do you have your own theories on how to handle them in the safest and most effective ways? Thanks for your time.
domestic violence
I would think every case would have to be approached individually. A sizable barrier to mediation would be that for everyone to sit down at the table, the assailant would basically be admitting a jailable crime and the other would be putting herself at risk because the big reason many to most of the cases go unreported is that the victim fears "telling" will bring physical, financial, or relational (with children for example) repercussions.
domestic violence
I my experience and expertise in domestic violence, I find that having some legal power and immediate action consequnece is very important. Follow that with mediation or more importantly individual psychotherapy and domestic violence classes.
Please remember to always teach escape and evasion before you teach assertion or self-defense.
Until again,
Lynn Seiser, Ph.D., MFT
Please remember to always teach escape and evasion before you teach assertion or self-defense.
Until again,
Lynn Seiser, Ph.D., MFT
-
Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
domestic violence
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Dana
What is the rationale to support this position?Please remember to always teach escape and evasion before you teach assertion or self-defense
Dana
domestic violence
I would guess because those skills are more effective and when people visualize self-defense, they tend to think of fighting rather than not being in dangerous situations in the first place or alternatives to hand to hand combat. I would teach them simultaneously, but I've emphasized that it's easier to survive a car crash by driving responsibly and never having one, rather than concentrating on (and usually practicing) smashing into something with seatbelt in place.
domestic violence
As an aside mars, something came across my desk today that could be of interest to women, is that Pamela Anderson will have, starting in late summer, her own column, called "Pam Honestly," in Jane magazine. It is my understanding that she will be focusing on domestic abuse. Check it out for your research.
------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
-
Tom Faigle
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Fairfax, VA, USA
domestic violence
As a victim of domestic violence I have learned a lot about the legal system and how people are treated. My first experience was when my then wife got extremely violent started hitting me and screaming rape (we were in an aparment at the time waiting for our house to be built). To make a long story short I felt I was "forced" to call 9-1-1. My ex hung up the phone three times and the 911 operator called back. Finally she ran out of the apartment and left for the night. An officer was sent, and my ex-wife was charged with assualt against my will. I didn't testify against her and the charges were dismissed. (looking back I should have and the judge would have put her into a program that might have helped her).
Several years later after we seperated, and I got custody of my son, my ex-wife kidnapped him and took him to Mass. When I went to get him, I called the police in the town she's from and the police told me they wouldn't help me. I called the sheriff and he said he'd help. When I got there his sotry was totally differnt. I was told that a Federalized Virginia was no good in Mass. I was then arrested as my ex had made claims that I had attacked her and she was running from Virginia to Mass to get away from me. The ending to the story is that charges were finally dropped after a year of working the Mass and VA legal systems and spending a fortune.
Looking back I made several mistakes, but the end result is that I got my son back, and that I didn't go to jail for crimes I didn't commit. But the system isn't fair and lots of improvements need to be made. I also learned that I've made a lot of changes to my life to hopefully be able to spot women who have mental problems, to take care of myself (study Uechi), and know the system enough to know what types of things can happen if your not careful.
I'm trying to make several points from my story. First domestic violence is wrong. Second, some women think that they can get away with it. Third, many men are abused and are charged with crimes they didn't commit as the system wants to punish "wife beaters". Fourth, we need to do much much more to go deeper into the problem and understand what really happens with domestic violence.
Anyway mars, I thinks it's a good topic and if you want to email me or call me I'll be willing to take some time and give you all
information on my case and the opinions I've formed from my experiences.
Tom
Several years later after we seperated, and I got custody of my son, my ex-wife kidnapped him and took him to Mass. When I went to get him, I called the police in the town she's from and the police told me they wouldn't help me. I called the sheriff and he said he'd help. When I got there his sotry was totally differnt. I was told that a Federalized Virginia was no good in Mass. I was then arrested as my ex had made claims that I had attacked her and she was running from Virginia to Mass to get away from me. The ending to the story is that charges were finally dropped after a year of working the Mass and VA legal systems and spending a fortune.
Looking back I made several mistakes, but the end result is that I got my son back, and that I didn't go to jail for crimes I didn't commit. But the system isn't fair and lots of improvements need to be made. I also learned that I've made a lot of changes to my life to hopefully be able to spot women who have mental problems, to take care of myself (study Uechi), and know the system enough to know what types of things can happen if your not careful.
I'm trying to make several points from my story. First domestic violence is wrong. Second, some women think that they can get away with it. Third, many men are abused and are charged with crimes they didn't commit as the system wants to punish "wife beaters". Fourth, we need to do much much more to go deeper into the problem and understand what really happens with domestic violence.
Anyway mars, I thinks it's a good topic and if you want to email me or call me I'll be willing to take some time and give you all
information on my case and the opinions I've formed from my experiences.
Tom
domestic violence
Truly a "tough issue". So... I'm delurking just to ask:
What about teenager on parent domestic violence? Anyone have any experience with that? I've run into a number of situations where the kids have complete control over the parents. If the parents discipline the teens in any way, they get threatened with DSS, police charges of abuse, or worse.
Domestic violence is wrong... and it happens in many different combinations.
What about teenager on parent domestic violence? Anyone have any experience with that? I've run into a number of situations where the kids have complete control over the parents. If the parents discipline the teens in any way, they get threatened with DSS, police charges of abuse, or worse.
Domestic violence is wrong... and it happens in many different combinations.
domestic violence
Tom,
Chilling experience. And you are correct when it comes to the unfairness of it all.
Of course this works both ways, but if a man falls in the tentacles of a mentally unstable woman with a sordid past, as many have a way of doing, the legal process turns mostly a deaf ear.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
A similar story was related to me by my barber, whom I have known for thirty years to be a good husband and father, yet he kept putting up with a mentally unstable wife with the worst of a sordid past, who abused him and manipulated him out of his kids and home.
One of my best friends went through the same nightmarish experience with a wife who had been previously married twice with out of control kids, and who had been under psychiatric care before their marriage.
They came close to killing each other one night, and I was summonsed by him to respond to the house and help.
While there, I was challenged by the husband of the woman next door, who had “appointed” himself as the wife’s protector, and saw me in the house as a threat.
I won’t write what happened next, but I could have ended up in jail over that *** bag and her grandstanding “protector” who turned tail and ran when things got “hot”! What a f*** moron. Don’t get me started.
A good way to practice “emotional self defense” today is to hire a detective agency which for a few hundred dollars can run a complete background check on the person, and you’d be surprised at what they can turn up.
I use them in my work frequently, and they can alert you as to what moves you need to make early in the game, before you get yourself in up to your neck emotionally and financially.
------------------
Van Canna
Chilling experience. And you are correct when it comes to the unfairness of it all.
Of course this works both ways, but if a man falls in the tentacles of a mentally unstable woman with a sordid past, as many have a way of doing, the legal process turns mostly a deaf ear.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Very true. Unless we can learn to “function” in awareness, a man in such a dead end nightmare will pay the heaviest of price, if he cannot bail out early and move on.I'm trying to make several points from my story. First domestic violence is wrong. Second, some women think that they can get away with it. Third, many men are abused and are charged with crimes they didn't commit as the system wants to punish "wife beaters".
A similar story was related to me by my barber, whom I have known for thirty years to be a good husband and father, yet he kept putting up with a mentally unstable wife with the worst of a sordid past, who abused him and manipulated him out of his kids and home.
One of my best friends went through the same nightmarish experience with a wife who had been previously married twice with out of control kids, and who had been under psychiatric care before their marriage.
They came close to killing each other one night, and I was summonsed by him to respond to the house and help.
While there, I was challenged by the husband of the woman next door, who had “appointed” himself as the wife’s protector, and saw me in the house as a threat.
I won’t write what happened next, but I could have ended up in jail over that *** bag and her grandstanding “protector” who turned tail and ran when things got “hot”! What a f*** moron. Don’t get me started.
A good way to practice “emotional self defense” today is to hire a detective agency which for a few hundred dollars can run a complete background check on the person, and you’d be surprised at what they can turn up.
I use them in my work frequently, and they can alert you as to what moves you need to make early in the game, before you get yourself in up to your neck emotionally and financially.
------------------
Van Canna
-
Tom Faigle
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Fairfax, VA, USA
domestic violence
Sensi Canna,
Thanks for the kind words. Dealing with someone who is mentally ill is a very hard thing. Something that I hope NEVER to have to do again. And I'm really glad to have survived without going crazy.
I'm sorry to hear about your experience. Funny how people think they're helping and actually making things worse. I'm glad you made it out without becoming a victim of the legal system (wish I would have)
As for the PI idea. In my current situation it doesn't apply. But I'll keep it in mind for the future. Thanks for the idea.
Right now the best thing for me, is having my own home. Custody of my son, working on addressing the hurt I've gone through, and getting back into good physical shape(through exercise and Uechi-Ryu) Also rebuilding financially. All things considered it could have been much worse.
Tom
Thanks for the kind words. Dealing with someone who is mentally ill is a very hard thing. Something that I hope NEVER to have to do again. And I'm really glad to have survived without going crazy.
I'm sorry to hear about your experience. Funny how people think they're helping and actually making things worse. I'm glad you made it out without becoming a victim of the legal system (wish I would have)
As for the PI idea. In my current situation it doesn't apply. But I'll keep it in mind for the future. Thanks for the idea.
Right now the best thing for me, is having my own home. Custody of my son, working on addressing the hurt I've gone through, and getting back into good physical shape(through exercise and Uechi-Ryu) Also rebuilding financially. All things considered it could have been much worse.
Tom
domestic violence
Tom,
Best of luck to you. I can only imagine what you were put through.
In the case of my barber, he had built a home on a lovely piece of land as gifted to him by his father who had sold property in Europe to buy the lot so he could gift it to his son for him to build a home maintaining an emotional/physical link to ancestry.
She brought nothing to the marriage except selfishness and covetous/plundering intent.
She got very deeply into his pockets adding serious injury to insult.I am very sorry about the financial beating you took, but that's par for the course, as they say.
As you point out, it is critical to become aware early in the game just what in hell life has handed down for you to deal with.
Looking back you always find that “early signs” were there all along, but were ignored for one reason or another. There is usually some sort of “pattern” to these people that emerges as intimacy grows, too bad that for the most part denial[ yours] is what they count on, and they are usually on target.
Another good indicator of what you have got on your hands is the family history of related ugliness that should tip you off rather early in the game of what is likely to befall you. Another is the credit history, usually a major red flag of woes to come.
Aside from the emotional death, the financial ruin can bring the husband to his knees. This poor guy had to move out from his lovely home, he had built on his father’s land, and was barely able to afford a small apartment on what she and her lawyer left for him to live on.
The PI solution is a bit distasteful but essential in today’s world, and it can be done surreptitiously and with good justification because it is not just you, but your children that can be terribly affected by your blind faith.
When I say “you” I don’t mean you personally, but I speak in general terms.
Unfortunately the “con” is usually mostly on than mostly off with a certain profile.
Good luck in your future relationships.I wish you and your children well.
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited June 22, 2002).]
Best of luck to you. I can only imagine what you were put through.
In the case of my barber, he had built a home on a lovely piece of land as gifted to him by his father who had sold property in Europe to buy the lot so he could gift it to his son for him to build a home maintaining an emotional/physical link to ancestry.
She brought nothing to the marriage except selfishness and covetous/plundering intent.
She got very deeply into his pockets adding serious injury to insult.I am very sorry about the financial beating you took, but that's par for the course, as they say.
As you point out, it is critical to become aware early in the game just what in hell life has handed down for you to deal with.
Looking back you always find that “early signs” were there all along, but were ignored for one reason or another. There is usually some sort of “pattern” to these people that emerges as intimacy grows, too bad that for the most part denial[ yours] is what they count on, and they are usually on target.
Another good indicator of what you have got on your hands is the family history of related ugliness that should tip you off rather early in the game of what is likely to befall you. Another is the credit history, usually a major red flag of woes to come.
Aside from the emotional death, the financial ruin can bring the husband to his knees. This poor guy had to move out from his lovely home, he had built on his father’s land, and was barely able to afford a small apartment on what she and her lawyer left for him to live on.
The PI solution is a bit distasteful but essential in today’s world, and it can be done surreptitiously and with good justification because it is not just you, but your children that can be terribly affected by your blind faith.
When I say “you” I don’t mean you personally, but I speak in general terms.
Unfortunately the “con” is usually mostly on than mostly off with a certain profile.
Good luck in your future relationships.I wish you and your children well.
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited June 22, 2002).]
domestic violence
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
In the case of my barber, he had built a home on a lovely piece of land as gifted to him by his father who had sold property in Europe to buy the lot so he could gift it to his son for him to build a home maintaining an emotional/physical link to ancestry.
She brought nothing to the marriage except selfishness and covetous/plundering intent.
She got very deeply into his pockets adding serious injury to insult.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unless there is a prenuptual agreement stating otherwise (and sometimes even then), in the PRoMA (People's Republic of Massachusetts
) ALL property is considered joint property.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Looking back you always find that “early signs” were there all along, but were ignored for one reason or another. There is usually some sort of “pattern” to these people that emerges as intimacy grows, too bad that for the most part denial{yours} is what they count on, and they are usually on target.
Another good indicator of what you have got on your hands is the family history of related ugliness that should tip you off rather early in the game of what is likely to befall you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Isn't it amazing (especially with 20/20 hindsight) how blind "love" can be... Sometimes it can take years... or even decades to wake up and see what has been evident all along.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
And even if he could have kept his home (as others have been able to do), he would have ended up working double just to keep up...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Canna-sensei, you could have written that response/advice to a whole host of people... some of which read these forums on a regular basis.
BTW, regarding understanding the nature of "ex"s, the use of a PI, and having a prenuptual agreement... each of those is worth the weight in gold and is advice that not enough people heed.
Take care and be good to each other...
In the case of my barber, he had built a home on a lovely piece of land as gifted to him by his father who had sold property in Europe to buy the lot so he could gift it to his son for him to build a home maintaining an emotional/physical link to ancestry.
She brought nothing to the marriage except selfishness and covetous/plundering intent.
She got very deeply into his pockets adding serious injury to insult.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unless there is a prenuptual agreement stating otherwise (and sometimes even then), in the PRoMA (People's Republic of Massachusetts
) ALL property is considered joint property.<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Unfortuantely, in most divorces one party gets royally effed. Usually it is the man, but I've seen it go both ways. No matter which way that happens it's just not right.I am very sorry about the financial beating you took, but that's par for the course, as they say.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Looking back you always find that “early signs” were there all along, but were ignored for one reason or another. There is usually some sort of “pattern” to these people that emerges as intimacy grows, too bad that for the most part denial{yours} is what they count on, and they are usually on target.
Another good indicator of what you have got on your hands is the family history of related ugliness that should tip you off rather early in the game of what is likely to befall you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Isn't it amazing (especially with 20/20 hindsight) how blind "love" can be... Sometimes it can take years... or even decades to wake up and see what has been evident all along.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Aside from the emotional death, the financial ruin can bring the husband to his knees. This poor guy had to move out from his lovely home, he had built on his father’s land, and was barely able to afford a small apartment on what she and her lawyer left for him to live on.
And even if he could have kept his home (as others have been able to do), he would have ended up working double just to keep up... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Even if you don't have children, it's advisable. You should always know what you're getting into and get as complete an understanding of the other person's "baggage" as you can. Perhaps the other person is fantastic, but they are divorced. The PI can also help you find out what you will have to deal with regarding that "ex". For example, if your barber friend were to find someone and think about a relationship, (IMNSHO) that new person deserves to know about the vindictive nature of the "ex"...The PI solution is a bit distasteful but essential in today’s world, and it can be done surreptitiously and with good justification because it is not just you, but your children that can be terribly affected by your blind faith.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
How did that old line go... "There's a million stories in the concrete jungle. They're all different and they're all the same... this is one of those stories..."When I say “you” I don’t mean you personally, but I speak in general terms.
Canna-sensei, you could have written that response/advice to a whole host of people... some of which read these forums on a regular basis.
BTW, regarding understanding the nature of "ex"s, the use of a PI, and having a prenuptual agreement... each of those is worth the weight in gold and is advice that not enough people heed.
Take care and be good to each other...
domestic violence
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
In many of these situations, when you are up against some serious “baggage” , one ends up buying into a pus squirting festering sore…. And that is your new relationship.
My other friend, not the barber, was constantly in a frazzled state of mind during his “courtship” of his wife to be but would not heed the signs. Once I and another friend visited her apartment and we were appalled by what we saw. Total disorder, chaos, and garbage everywhere, beds undone, dirty dishes piled up in the sink, and filthy underwear tossed about.
But he “loved her” blindly. Her previous husband had “disappeared” __
When they got married, My friend said that just to have sex he had to make an appointment, like “Aw not now, later at about ten o’clock” _ then at 10 PM, he would get into bed and she’d be “busy” somewhere in the house, and nothing happened for the most part.
The signs are always there, it takes savvy and courage to take off and keep on going.
------------------
Van Canna
I forgot about that. Glad you brought that up, Panther. As you know many women, also men, tend to lie about “the troublesome ex” Lurking in the shadows for fear of “blowing” the new relationship.You should always know what you're getting into and get as complete an understanding of the other person's "baggage" as you can. Perhaps the other person is fantastic, but they are divorced. The PI can also help you find out what you will have to deal with regarding that "ex". For example, if your barber friend were to find someone and think about a relationship, (IMNSHO) that new person deserves to know about the vindictive nature of the "ex"...
In many of these situations, when you are up against some serious “baggage” , one ends up buying into a pus squirting festering sore…. And that is your new relationship.
My other friend, not the barber, was constantly in a frazzled state of mind during his “courtship” of his wife to be but would not heed the signs. Once I and another friend visited her apartment and we were appalled by what we saw. Total disorder, chaos, and garbage everywhere, beds undone, dirty dishes piled up in the sink, and filthy underwear tossed about.
But he “loved her” blindly. Her previous husband had “disappeared” __
When they got married, My friend said that just to have sex he had to make an appointment, like “Aw not now, later at about ten o’clock” _ then at 10 PM, he would get into bed and she’d be “busy” somewhere in the house, and nothing happened for the most part.
The signs are always there, it takes savvy and courage to take off and keep on going.
------------------
Van Canna
domestic violence
Tom,
You were probably surprised at the extent of the advice and support that you had in this forum.
You are not alone; in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, more than half of all marriages end in divorce.
Domestic violence, despite the attention this subject receives in the media, increases slightly annually.
A lot of high profile cases have emerged in this state resulting from a failure of the court to issue a restraining order or the out right disregard of the order. Many of these cases have resulted in one spouse murdering the other. Of course the victim is usually the wife.
Conduct of the judiciary is monitored by the court system and the media.
One important aspect of management of domestic violence cases is in the separation of the parties.
Instead of having to file for divorce (in Probate Court) before even addressing the issue of violence, the assaulted or threatened party can apply for a restraining order in a local district court within the jurisdction of the parties.
A temporary restraining order can be issued by the court to effect a cooling off period.
Failure to obey the restraining order can result in immediate arrest of the offender.
In most cases, the offender is the male and there remains a bias against the male; theory being that most harm (statistically) does eminate from the male.
In any event, the cooling off generated by the restraining order will allow the parties to move toward counselling, divorce proceedings or some determination of the case with less violence.
I have heard the stories for years and dealt with them in my office, concerning the subject matter of mentally ill parties with many being in the category that Van,sensei portrayed.
Many hate the court system because they feel it is unjust and biased or that it didn't do for them what they expected.
No such system invented yet is even close to perfect, and the hurt, anger and damage felt by the parties carry on and effect their lives. Issues such as men feeling they were taken to the cleaner's and custody issues are high on the list. Ousted males evicted by restraining orders are also right on the top of the complaint list.
We can help manage anger with our study of martial arts and philosophy, but when it comes to the ego defeating events which occur from divorce, violent or non-violent, it is difficult to handle.
Use the system to your advantage by seeking legal counsel as your first step. Your first line of defense is good counsel who will indoctrinate you with what you may expect and to advise you how to act.
Please be assured that what I state is not sexist and that the same advice as above is directed as well, if not moreso to females.
Many males when faced with the support guidelines generated by the Probate Courts, will want to flee. Worst mistake. The guidelines were required by the federal government in its attempt to lessen welfare rolls caused by "deadbeat dads or moms". They were not promoted by the court.
There are reciprocal agreements resulting a fleeing parents attempt to beat the system, resulting in arrest and enforcement.
When you compete in an MA event you will observe the rules and in so doing, learn them.
Consider the court your arena.
Enough said.
Alan K
------------------
"The Goddess of Justice is Blind"
You were probably surprised at the extent of the advice and support that you had in this forum.
You are not alone; in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, more than half of all marriages end in divorce.
Domestic violence, despite the attention this subject receives in the media, increases slightly annually.
A lot of high profile cases have emerged in this state resulting from a failure of the court to issue a restraining order or the out right disregard of the order. Many of these cases have resulted in one spouse murdering the other. Of course the victim is usually the wife.
Conduct of the judiciary is monitored by the court system and the media.
One important aspect of management of domestic violence cases is in the separation of the parties.
Instead of having to file for divorce (in Probate Court) before even addressing the issue of violence, the assaulted or threatened party can apply for a restraining order in a local district court within the jurisdction of the parties.
A temporary restraining order can be issued by the court to effect a cooling off period.
Failure to obey the restraining order can result in immediate arrest of the offender.
In most cases, the offender is the male and there remains a bias against the male; theory being that most harm (statistically) does eminate from the male.
In any event, the cooling off generated by the restraining order will allow the parties to move toward counselling, divorce proceedings or some determination of the case with less violence.
I have heard the stories for years and dealt with them in my office, concerning the subject matter of mentally ill parties with many being in the category that Van,sensei portrayed.
Many hate the court system because they feel it is unjust and biased or that it didn't do for them what they expected.
No such system invented yet is even close to perfect, and the hurt, anger and damage felt by the parties carry on and effect their lives. Issues such as men feeling they were taken to the cleaner's and custody issues are high on the list. Ousted males evicted by restraining orders are also right on the top of the complaint list.
We can help manage anger with our study of martial arts and philosophy, but when it comes to the ego defeating events which occur from divorce, violent or non-violent, it is difficult to handle.
Use the system to your advantage by seeking legal counsel as your first step. Your first line of defense is good counsel who will indoctrinate you with what you may expect and to advise you how to act.
Please be assured that what I state is not sexist and that the same advice as above is directed as well, if not moreso to females.
Many males when faced with the support guidelines generated by the Probate Courts, will want to flee. Worst mistake. The guidelines were required by the federal government in its attempt to lessen welfare rolls caused by "deadbeat dads or moms". They were not promoted by the court.
There are reciprocal agreements resulting a fleeing parents attempt to beat the system, resulting in arrest and enforcement.
When you compete in an MA event you will observe the rules and in so doing, learn them.
Consider the court your arena.
Enough said.
Alan K
------------------
"The Goddess of Justice is Blind"
