Training Methods

Training Methods

Postby Tuite Cowboy » Tue Nov 20, 2001 7:58 pm

Well just because Bram is across the pond having fun doesn't mean we shouldn't keep things going here. So what training methods or drills do we all use in our Dojo's or day to day personal training?
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Training Methods

Postby Tuite Cowboy » Sat Dec 01, 2001 2:30 am

I did of course mean training methods involving edged weapons. Goes to show perhaps how few people use them....and we wonder why there are so many misconceptionsWell Bram I tried...I know i'm a poor substitue for you but ah well LOL
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Training Methods

Postby gmattson » Sat Dec 01, 2001 6:45 pm

Hi Tuite Cowboy:

Nothing wrong with your question, but most of us do not practice knife drills and therefore, not in a position to discuss them intelligently.

I bet you will get lots of action if you help us learn a couple of drills we might use in class. . . Perhaps a video clip to accompany it. . .

Best,


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Training Methods

Postby Tuite Cowboy » Sun Dec 02, 2001 6:39 pm

Sounds like a great Idea about the vid clips...any "how to tips"? lol
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Postby Sochin » Sun Dec 02, 2001 7:47 pm

Here's a dexterity drill I can describe without video. I learned it from MoA Keating.

Start with your knife in lead hand, blade forward and your other hand in the live position, up and just back of the knife. When something comes to you, cut it with a circular motion across and down to your side while the live hand goes forward to ward off or grab.

At your side, spin the knife in your grip so it is now in a reverse grip and keep the cut moving in its circle to come back up and cut in the same area again, going low by your waist again.

Woodpecker a stab to the thigh or kidney (ie, pop in and out fast).

Then hook back with the point as if catching something (an arm or wrist) in the v between the knife and your wrist and then punch the butt end forward as a strike to an eye or as a cut to the side of the neck.

There is more but let's see if this was understandable or interesting...

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[This message has been edited by Sochin (edited December 02, 2001).]
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Training Methods

Postby LeeDarrow » Mon Dec 03, 2001 10:34 pm

Sochin-sama,

Interesting drill and, as far as real life goes, might I add "dangerous?"

Any time you lose a firm grip on a weapon there is a good liklihood of losing the weapon completely, IME.

In a real life situation, with the chemical cocktail running full bore, the probability of doing such a grip reverse and return is not real high, IMHO.

Love the stab to the thigh, however. In fencing, the epee is a great weapon for that and a knife, if handled properly in a fencer's grip, can do just as much damage, with better control than when switching to a reverse grip.

Reverse grip also has another drawback - it lowers your attack range considerably. If the other guy has a knife and knows what he's doing, then a reverse grip is probably the last place you want to be unless you have studied Yagyu-shinkage kenjitsu (which specializes in the reverse grip tactics).

Please understand, the drill is a great coordination and dexterity builder and should probably be practiced for just that reason. But I sincerely worry about trying that on tne street.

I could also be very wrong in my summation and would be interested in your feedback.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht. (Sandan, ret. sort of)
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Training Methods

Postby Tuite Cowboy » Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:33 am

Lee this primarily is a dextarity drill not a combat drill. Combat applications can be taken from it but its not a direct translation. The reverse grip is only for close quarters where forward, hammer, and sabre grips are limited. And of course one or the resons we do repetative motion drills is to train muscle memory so that fine motor skills translate into gross ones in high stress circumstances.
We do a simlar drill except we hook the arm right after the reverse grip cut and then follow up with a slice to the deltoid. Which according to bio mechanical cutting will drop his arm.

A more basic drill is the crossada drill. Your attacker will feed you a #1,2 3,4.5 and 12 strike. you will meet each blow steel to flesh will basically the same strike save for the 5 & 12. The arms simply cross and uncross. The empty or live hand then pushes the weapon hands across the blade. be aware that your blade hand should always be on top of your live hand. You never want your empty hand to trap or smother your blade.It teaches several basic & vital concept.
#1 meet steel to flesh always! never lead with that empty hand.
#2 respond from whatever postion you are in. whether the hands are open or crossed. this leads to the all importand flow concept!
#3 the importance of turning the blade. A simple turn of the blade and shift of the body defends the cut and inflicts 1 of your own.

give it a try and let me know. Maybe we can post a video demo or bram may come discuss the blade vs. empty hand aspects.
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Training Methods

Postby gmattson » Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:44 am

Tuite:

I'd really like to see some photos and clips relating to the drills and hand positions mentioned. If you email a digital clip or photo to me or Scott, we would be happy to add them to your posts.

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Postby Tuite Cowboy » Tue Dec 04, 2001 4:12 am

I'll get the web cam & my Uke Fired up and see what we can do....
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Postby student » Tue Dec 04, 2001 6:14 pm

Lee:

The 1 through 12 is not fencing terminology; it's Modern Arnis Attack Angles. Pick up a book on Arnis or Kali or the balisong from the library and you should find the targets.

I'm editing this post to add the 12 Angles Of Attack as I have received them (CAVEAT! CAVEAT! NOTA BENE! In no way do I pretend to be an Arnis maven and there are variations on the 12 Angles; YMMV; these may not be the ones Bram uses) from Dr. Mario Dominguez, a/k/a Gaucho:

1. Forehand slash to head.
2. Backhand slash to head.
3. Horizontal forehand slash to ribs/abdomen
4. Horizontal backhand slash to ribs/abdomen.
5. Straight forehand thrust, palm down to heart/abdomen; ideally executed with an upward tilt to the point, as in thrusting up under the ribs to the heart.
6. Straight backhand thrust to heart abdomen, executed as above.
7. Forehand upward diagonal slash from low to high to leg abdomen.
8. Backhand upward diagonal slash to leg abdomen.
9. Straight forehand thrust, palm down, to the throat; ideally executed with a downward tilt to the point, as in thrusting at the aortic arch.
10. Straight backhand thrust, palm up, to the throat, executed as above.
11. Straight vertical downward slash to the head.
12. Straight backhand vertical downward slash to the head, diagonally down to the temple or side of the neck.

The changing from forward/saber/quarter- saber grip to icepick grip should be familiar to you -hell, Yang and Bork had me doing it 29 years ago....

(Ohmighod. It really was 29 years ago. Image )

Still practice it. Image

The big names in knives these days are Bram, the late Grandmaster Remy Presas (Phillipine), Guro Dan Inosanto (Phillipine), Datu Kelly Worden (Phillipine and Indonesian), Hoch Hockheim (Phillipine, LEO/Army), Michael Janich (mostly Phillipine) and Master At Arms James Keating (Phillipine, Indonesian, Western Fencing).

Switching grips in the middle of a fight is possible - and it can change your fighting style and confuse your opponent's expectations something fierce - but it is the type of fine motor skill that not everyone can master when under the gun, so to speak.

Bram:

Welcome back.

I met someone at my local sporting goods store who has the Gunting and I've played a bit now with the drone - and only the drone; I'm not stupid.

I understand you may be coming out with a smaller version of the Gunting. I look forward to that; the current model is a bit big for my hand.

Good to have you back.

student


[This message has been edited by student (edited December 04, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by student (edited December 06, 2001).]
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Postby LeeDarrow » Wed Dec 05, 2001 5:10 am

Tuite Coboy-sama,

I guess I didn't make it clear that I understood that this was a dexterity drill and not a combat one. My bad.

When someone drills, though, shouldn't there be a modicum of practicality to the drill - or should it be like the old Manual of Arms - a drill for the sake of familiarity of what the weapon will and will not do?

IMHO, knowing the weapon from all aspects is critical, so we seem to be on the same page.

Thanks for the clarification and my apologies for not being clear as well. My intent was to make sure that people new to the art would not consider it a combat drill but a dexterity drill, as you intended. I guess I'll just have to work on my communications skills a bit... Image

I am not all that familiar with the number positions that you quote in the combat drill, however. My little (2 or 3 lessons) experience with fencing gives me the 8 positions used in that art, but 12? Sorry, maybe I need to get a couple of modern knife books and pick up more of the terminology.. Image

Thanks again for the clarification.

Respectfully,

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Postby BRAM » Wed Dec 05, 2001 5:44 am

gee..thanks John for trying..yes I'm home from across the pond..well OK i'm not HOME home but I have access to a PC..I'll be HOME by Monday the 10th..

Gee...
if you can't change up grips under strsss youre in real big trouble.
OK..a bunch of trouble..
no one asked for fancy flips, twirls etc..just basic go from forward to reverse and back again..
thats not rocket science..
or i suppose you're telling me that someone can't change up from a jab to a cross to an uppercut to a palm heel to a grab and back to a jab?

Ok we cheat with the Gunting 'cause its got spoon clips and indexing points to let us do that..go from forward to reverse and back again..
and now all MBC-knives will have indexing points to allow forward to reverse actions..

But changing ones grip is a "range thing" and one doesn't lose ones knife..and its not a really fine motor skill..and it uses our strongest grip of thumb and middle finger and its freaking real easy to do..

I've changd grips right off the opponents arm or body..Why not?

We use Dexterity drill applications all the time...

ooops got to go..
gads look @ the time!!
be back in a few days..
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Postby LeeDarrow » Thu Dec 06, 2001 6:04 pm

Thanks for the update, student. Myghod it HAS been 29 years since those sessions, hasn't it?! What a long, strange trip it's been, eh, old friend? Image

Bram-Sensei,

As to grip switches, sure, it's do-able and something I have done, but I still consider it risky in the application shown, that's all. As to the Gunting being a cheat because of the pivot points - well, that's why it's considered such a good design! Image

I still maintain that simplicity is the key, especially for an inexperienced (read no combat experience) person who is not familiar with what the chemical cocktail will do to fine motor skills, but you are the expert and I'm the more armchair theorist (who has been in a few real situations involving people with sharp-pointy things and bad attitudes), so I bow to your expertise.

Respectfully,

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Postby Sochin » Thu Dec 06, 2001 11:21 pm

Hi Lee,

RE: "Please understand, the drill is a great coordination and dexterity builder and should probably be practiced for just that reason. But I sincerely worry about trying that on the street."

I tend to believe that 98% of the empty hand training I have taken part in is of the 'dexterity only' order and about 2% is serious 'defeat the monster.' Yet I have had to physically mange literally dozens of attacks by irrate clients (agreesive and violent teens). I have yet to do a dumb unproductive flash move to protect myself nor have I ever automatically done a kill move by mistake due to training it so much.

With the knife I believe that I should get used to it in everyway possible. I flip and catch it, doubles, triples and can tell when to get the h out of the way. I change grip and practice under momentum and centrifigal force. And, I believe more than a few times, when my knife was blasted out of my grip due to some foolishness on my part, I was able to feel it go and keep in contact and bring it back under control. This was sparring of course and my soapbox is labelled "sparring is NOT fighting!" but it has happened and that is why I like non-fighting dexterity drills. Image

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Postby LeeDarrow » Fri Dec 07, 2001 6:14 pm

Sochin-sama,

It sounds like we're on the same page here. Practice it all and use what will work.

I agree with the percentages to a great extent as well and the more familiar one is with any fighting art or weapon, the better one will do with it.

Trust me, I'm all FOR dexterity drills - I'm a professional magician, remember? Image

Thanks for the kind words.

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