Aftermath of a choice

[Valkenar]

At times they can be worse than the street, as there is history of people getting murdered over flame wars.

I would be very curious to know about these incidents, and what caused them. I'm guessing they're about like video-game related deaths... that is, some psycho kills another psycho over the eternal star wars vs. star trek debate.

I tried to put a stop to it in a fun sort of way, but now, thanks to my brother Bill, things are about to escalate again.

Maybe, maybe not. For my part, I appologize again for any offense I have caused. If anybody wants to email me at morgoth@brandeis.edu and receive a personal appology, or otherwise tell me how wrong I am about everything, feel free.

[Panther]

The comment Van referred to was this...

"Van Sensei, do you think me a feminist? No suh. I still answer to the other half of the race. But if someone doesn't stir you boys up once in awhile you get awfully complacent and just talk about being hen-pecked, what cold fish women are, how you got it stuck to you in your divorce and what you would do if someone gouged your eye."

Yes, this woman has a mouth, and maybe her mother should have washed it out with soap. However there is NO reference to Panther's divorce. But in the typical pattern of the "phantom insult" (a Glasheenism ), Panther's button was pushed and he replied about HIS divorce.

And so it was...

Why did Deb (or any "mouthy female" for that matter) make such a comment - particularly to a respected senior? Good question. Was the comment made in a vacuum? One could argue that this didn't help her case any.

I respect you Bill, but you just blew it. IF this had been a debate between two anonymous people on the forums (me being one of them), I would accept your criticism. However, the truth is that Kunoichi knows me. We've worked out together and I used to practice at the dojo where she is an instructor. She knows my recent (and not so recent) history and at multiple points in that thread she commented to me directly. She referenced my previous martial arts study. She referenced my size. And she referenced other facts about me. To put it as nice as I can... Those went beyond debating our perspective points on a given subject in a forum thread and went pretty far in violating my personal privacy with knowledge which she gained soley because of her position as an instructor at the dojo where I used to train. I can't tell you how upset I am at the fact that such information gained in such a fashion was used in that way. Perhaps next time it will be OK for her to start quoting directly from my initial application to that dojo... Perhaps it would be fine for her to post my name, address, phone number, and any health information that was on that application! I was under the impression that my information in that application was private between me and the dojo. I feel that privacy and confidentiality was breached. I will not tolerate that nearly as lightly again in the future. Quite bluntly, I find those breaches unconscionable.

Why did Panther choose to take up this phantom insult? Good question. Shouldn't he have just continued on with his stellar analysis rather than taking this bait? But then again, his response appeared rather light-hearted.

At least you acknowledge that I made light of the tactic/subject. I won't ever do so again. EVER! I was (previously) under the impression that there was some sort of code of conduct for Uechi-ryu instructors. I apologize for my naivete, but don't worry... I've learned my lesson. Even folks you think you can trust... you can't.

You should also know that the Kellerman study was not peer-reviewed for NEJM. Even the board of the NEJM apologized for that AND Kellerman, after being taken to task about his misleading (to say the least) results, issued forth with "corrections" and what amounted to apologies. (As you know, intellectual dishonesty in such "research" can have serious consequences... Bellesiles should immediately come to mind!)
As far as the NRA funding studies... No matter what you wish to put forth, the fact is that anything the NRA touches is "damaged goods" as far as the anti-gunners are concerned... and the anti-gunners seem to have control of the media and major parts of the government.

And isn't Deb's "technique" after all VERY familiar? As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

I was not intimidated by her. But since it is evident from your "post mortem" thread here that there is only tolerance for Kunoichi's unique brand of vilification, I will remain above those insults and merely state that I am glad for the information which I can use in making future decisions.

I hope all take my comments in the spirit in which they are intended.

Personally, in reading some of the comments in this thread, I feel that the "spirit" is decidedly along the lines of bashing that other forum (and it's moderator) and its contents. IMNSHO, the comments in this thread have simply gone to give me more information on some people's viewpoints and attitudes... which I will dutifully file away for use in future decision making.

take care...

[Van Canna]

Debbie Downing wrote:

Poor Panther is going to have a bloody heart attack. Someone, I cannot remember which one, actually had to learn some new vocabulary words.[ Laird]Unless it happens to be your life, your life experience and your rights which shall supercede all others. Uh oh. Supercede. That too big a word?

Any reason for this type of personal insult? There must be something else cooking.

Panther

To put it as nice as I can... Those went beyond debating our perspective points on a given subject in a forum thread and went pretty far in violating my personal privacy with knowledge which she gained solely because of her position as an instructor at the dojo where I used to train. I can't tell you how upset I am at the fact that such information gained in such a fashion was used in that way.

That is what I have a problem understanding, and so I question the “motivation” propelling the diatribe.
What am I missing Panther?

At least you acknowledge that I made light of the tactic/subject. I won't ever do so again. EVER! I was (previously) under the impression that there was some sort of code of conduct for Uechi-ryu instructors.

Yep..was wondering what made you so tolerant..was expecting the FANGS a lot sooner.
You were too much of a gentleman, and so was Laird.

Personally, in reading some of the comments in this thread, I feel that the "spirit" is decidedly along the lines of bashing that other forum (and it's moderator) and its contents.

I hear you Panther, and I am dealing with Bill via personal e-mail.

Not only did he take the liberty of doing a “post mortem” on one of my threads without permission, but once he opened the Pandora’s box , he also had the gumption to e-mail me and ask that I edit the death wish comment from my post on his forum.

How about that one?

[Kunoichi]

Oh my, my, my. I was unaware this thread moved over here! Indeed I had been laughing over my recent demise!

First and foremost I would like to say nothing, and I mean nothing, was meant to address anyone's (and especially Bart's divorce.) I have NO personal knowledge or interest in Bart's divorce nor was I looking to personally insult him. I took very generic comments lifted from a thread on Van's forum - an entire thread which Van Sensei had deleted - and used them. Now since one in two marriages end in divorce I suppose that means about 50% of the readers are going to take that as a shot to their private gonads.

Death wish? Makes the analogy to the fanatical anti-abortionist movement all the more appropriate doesn't it? But that's ok. While others may argue about whether the world ends with a bang or a whimper, I just want to make sure mine doesn't end with a whine. Here in America we have more then just 2nd Amendment rights - we have 1st Amendment rights too.

I believe the American Pediatric Counsel et al when they say we have upwards of 500 children a year in America dying from guns. I really don't see why the media and medical profession would like to fictionalize children senselessly dying. I know civil liberty folks like to spout off about their rights but at some point, with so many children dying and injured a year, you have to step back and say "Houston, we got a problem here!" Except for my last tongue in cheek post, I never suggest banning guns. A solution may be as simple as further education. Maybe the NRA's Eddie the Eagle just isn't enough!?

Firearms, their manufacture and exportation are big business, big money. Many of the casualties are women and children. Van, would say more women need to carry guns. Guffaw. This is presumably to protect ourselves from men with guns??? When men talk about defense, they always claim to be protecting women and children, but they never ask the women and children what they think. (Pat Schroeder)

At one point someone asked if I could imagine a world without guns. Except for the necessity of subsistence hunting and wildlife management, yes, I can. Where is our guitar strumming friend now? Stop from playing Neil Young's "Find the Cost of Freedom" for a moment and play John Lennon's "Imagine." Remember the ex-Beatle? How was it he died again?

[Bill Glasheen]

Things usually happen for a reason, and I rarely see the good in blaming others.

The important thing is that we can look at ourselves in the mirror in the morning, and get on with life.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Things get very confusing here, what with the multiple pages. I had heard there was quite a reaction here, and didn't find it - on the first page. Oh yea, that SECOND page...

Where to start?

I was aware, Panther, that Kunoichi knew you. This in fact was a reason for me not to be terribly concerned. I was also very impressed with your postings, and frankly find no reason for you to feel badly about anything. You were - and still are - at your best when deflecting the chafe and remaining on the issue. I admire you. I learned much from you in the discussion.

Did I understand anything personal being brought out here directed at an individual? Of course not. I'm still not quite sure I understand, and perhaps there's confusion all the way around here. What IS clear is that personal attacks have NO PLACE on this or other forums. And using private information against someone later in life rarely leads to any long term good.

But...WHY SO SENSITIVE??? Why have I missed these issues that are being brought up? I was so focused on a REALLY good discussion. Could it be that those in the trenches can't see the beauty of a good debate, warts and all? Why can't a group so passionate about belief in an idea see the educational value of a challenge - even a tainted one? In my short life on this earth, I have marveled at how "incidents" and "challenges" are often unique opportunities to reassess one's views AND see oneself through the eyes of others. When we retain our mushin, the clarity of thought that results brings on tremendous growth opportunities.

On BOTH sides!!!

There IS a second issue being brought up here. A debate on the way individuals AND groups are treated IS a worthy topic, particularly given some of the e-mail that *I* am getting. Funny how that is - two sides to a good story. But it is OFF SUBJECT for that (Van's) thread. It may indeed be a worthy topic of another thread. Did it happen in a vacuum? No. But right now it can't be resolved. With time...store the thought for another day.

Panther, I would NEVER intentionally hurt you - period. Apologies are extended for any harm caused. But please also accept the sincerity of my effort. And I do not regret taking the challenge on. If I were a better man, it would have been done better, but that point is moot.

Van, you and I are destined to bump heads now and then, and I never take that personally. I am always here at the end of the day, am I not? Are you not amazed at how much growth has happened with time?

I acknowledge your concerns about the problem with digging up old issues that should be allowed to rest. I am never afraid to face you and show you the content of my character. Right or wrong, you will come to understand the reasons why I picked this...no...THESE torches up and carried them a bit farther. There is much we all can learn, and I forever put myself at the head of that line.

Bad behavior is not acceptable by any party. There is no "end justifies the means" that can be acceptable on these forums - even in the face of perceived injustice. I will leave this and the parties’ own posts at that.

- Bill

[Panther]

I want to make one thing very clear.

I have had the very good fortune of being able to train and learn at the fantastic dojo of Gary Khoury Sensei. Gary is an "instructor's instructor's instuctor" in my book and is not only one of the finest karate-ka I have ever met, he's one of the finest human beings I've ever met. He has always been a true friend and confidante... Heck, sometimes he has to be psychologist in addition to instructor, but he is always there for people... and has always been there for me.

I bring that up for a reason... The reason being that I would not want any thing that I have mentioned to reflect badly on Gary or his fine dojo in any way. I would never hesitate in recommending that dojo or Gary's excellent instruction. EVER... He has things to offer those from novice to Master and all levels in between. Gary Khoury Sensei (as well as Margaret Chojin Sensei and Bobby Spoon Sensei) are the consumate karate-ka and I want everyone to know how much respect I have for each of them.

Otherwise, I am (as Bill puts it) going to deflect this "chafe" so that I can have a little peace of mind...

Sayo'nara...

[Bill Glasheen]

On to issues... Panther wrote:

You should also know that the Kellerman study was not peer-reviewed for NEJM. Even the board of the NEJM apologized for that AND Kellerman, after being taken to task about his misleading (to say the least) results, issued forth with "corrections" and what amounted to apologies. (As you know, intellectual dishonesty in such "research" can have serious consequences... Bellesiles should immediately come to mind!)

This is the scientific process at work. The right thing ultimately happens.

As far as the NRA funding studies... No matter what you wish to put forth, the fact is that anything the NRA touches is "damaged goods" as far as the anti-gunners are concerned...

The problem here is not unique to gun control. The whole issue of funding sources for a research study is a hot topic now, what with government cutting back on academic funding for research. You now have academia doing research for drug companies, and a FEW unfortunate cases of results being...er...influenced by the hand that feeds it. I thought about my suggestion AFTER I made the post; I see your point.

However, this IS a hot topic now (thanks to Kellerman's initial shot across the bow) and the NRA SHOULD encourage reputable researchers to take the topic up with independent funding agencies. Death by violence always has been and always will be an important public health concern. There's no reason why good, unbiased minds can't take the cause up and do more - and better - work. Yes, this kind of encouragement DOES happen. Many moons ago when I just got out of graduate school, I had a well-known self defense expert approach me about taking up an important issue of the day. Because I already had other funding and was "booked", I had to decline the suggestion. But good topics like this are hard to come by, and the NRA should encourage the research and deal with the truth - whatever it really is. It is in all our best interests.

- Bill

P.S. I now see the additional post by Panther, and second his sentiments.

[gmattson]

I track these flare-ups. Would you believe they happen in cycles? Check the other forums. Lots of people getting upset and posting things they would normally not say during the past week.

Fortunately, cycles change and if my chart proves right, in another couple days, everyone will be friends again.

Moderators have a very difficult job, trying to determine when to intervene and when to remain quiet. I feel that we could have continued discussing this gun control issue, focusing on the literature and merits of certain statements based on flawed data, etc. without turining it into something personal. Moderators must determine when a post takes a personal bent and then chart a course of action.

I would suggest using the PM feature of this forum to contact the poster, requesting that a post be reworded or segments deleted.

If the poster refuses to do this, the moderator must decide whether to do it him/herself. The private moderator's forum is available if you would like to discuss the situation with the other moderators.

Although we cut a lot of slack for our friends and regual members of the forums, no one is above the rules.

The forum moderator has the final word on all issues involving his/her forum and will be backed up 100% by me in any decision made.

Moderators: Please use your best judgement in these matters and try not to let things get out of control. I enjoy discussing the tough issues here, but I don't enjoy watching people trash one another instead of the issues.

[Panther]

However, this IS a hot topic now (thanks to Kellerman's initial shot across the bow) and the NRA SHOULD encourage reputable researchers to take the topic up with independent funding agencies.

I and others have mentioned that reputable research many times. It just seems that whatever research we mention that supports our positions is either dismissed out of hand or accused of being "funded by the eeeeevvil NRA" (which isn't true). So, I used the same sources, cites and statistics that were originally referenced... and easily showed how they were misrepresented. There are already studies... peer-reviewed legitimate studies which have been done... more than one even.

Death by violence always has been and always will be an important public health concern. There's no reason why good, unbiased minds can't take the cause up and do more - and better - work.

Death by violence inevitably turns into death by eeeeeeevvvvil guns. Where are the folks calling for banning knives, cars, baseball bats, and martial arts training? Where is the outrage that someone would openly have lethal weapons such as sai and tonfa easily accessible hanging on their wall? More people are murdered by being beaten to death than by guns... so sure... research violence, but leave us honest lawful gun owners alone!

But good topics like this are hard to come by, and the NRA should encourage the research and deal with the truth - whatever it really is. It is in all our best interests.

It should not be the problem of or a problem to lawful gun-owners that researchers can't find good enough topics to gain funding. "Researchers" (such as the completely discredited anti-gun Bellesiles) need to do research, not find ways to make an issue out of an inalienable Right for purposes of some agenda... those types should be sweeping the floors... sorry, I didn't mean to insult the great and necessary work of those in the janitorial field by lumping them in with dishonest pond scum. The fact is that the statistics and research are actually on the side of gun owners and the people who need to "deal with the truth" are the ones that keep whining about the 500 children a year that are killed... So are we now talking about accidents or are we including murders? If we’re discussing accidents as it appears and as the discussion was about before, I have already shown that firearms accidents account for a small percentage of accidental deaths of children. And that it is hardly an epidemic. I’ve already stated that I think that one child death is one too many… but some things are just accidents and some things are unpreventable. We can not stop tragedies from occurring and whether that tragic death of someone’s beloved child happens from a firearm accident or any of the much more common causes, the parents will grieve just as much and the death is just as tragic. If the concern is truly around saving the lives of children, there are much better places for people to expend their energies and save far more lives. The fact is that since records have been kept (in 1903) firearms accidents have consistently been dropping. If the medical profession would like to do some “honest research” into preventing child deaths, perhaps they should seek funding to study ways of preventing the 12,000 (yes twelve thousand) deaths of children which those very same NSC statistics attribute to “ accidental medical errors”! Perhaps, rather than supporting such “guns as a health epidemic” malarkey, the AMA should support independent funding of this research and “live with the results no matter what they are.” (As previously stated, that wouldn’t prevent me from seeking a competent physician for my child any more than it would prevent me from teaching my child about safe gun handling… )

Methinks thou dost not have the high horse…

Good day…

[LenTesta]

Mabe we should change the name of my forum from Verbal Self Defense to Verbal Attacks and continue these discussions there

At least there will be some action over there.

[Valkenar]

Mabe we should change the name of my forum from Verbal Self Defense to Verbal Attacks and continue these discussions there

At least there will be some action over there.

Heh... somehow a "flamewars" forum would seem kind of out of place here I think. Though I've seen it on other forums, and it seems to kind of work, sometimes.

Perhaps an "Insults And Airing of Sensitive Personal Matters" forum.

[Ted Dinwiddie]

When I started this thread originally and when I revived it, my intention was a discussion of the need for Americans to take responsibility for themselves and their own rights and security.

The sniper attacks prompted some "Mommy save me" dialogue among people I know and I wanted to get some discussion going about that. The revival post had a link to an article about information gathering and tracking projects being undertaken by the US Government ostensibly for our security. Too bad if we don't want it.

I also realize that threads on these forums take on lives of their own. I have learned alot and have been stimulated a great deal by some of the discussions here. I will never understand the need to antagonize somebody, even though I have felt and acted on that impulse myself. I had thought it a product of maturity that I have that impulse less often than before. I am in awe of those that can respond to sarcastic taunting with point by point rebuttal. Until now, I had always ignored schoolyard debaters. I have a long way to go.

Van, Bill, Laird, Rich, Panther, and others have earned a place of respect in my heart and mind for their well-reasoned and informed posts over the years (it has been a while hasn't it?). They have provided good catalysts for some of my own thoughts, even when I do not agree. These forums have always seemed dojo-like to me; a place to have some intellectual floor time to complement my practice. I have little need for dojo goof-offs or unfocused training. I am here to learn and exchange ideas and info not see who can p*ss the farthest.

Aspects of the "Choice" thread were informative, but overall, the "debate" was reminiscent of the scene from Monty Python's The Search for the Holy Grail where Arthur fights the Black Knight.

[Bill Glasheen]

Ted

I have to admit to ignorance on that Monty Python movie, but somehow I appreciate the point.

George

Noted, and thanks.

Panther

Death by violence inevitably turns into death by eeeeeeevvvvil guns.

Guns are an instrument of violence AND an instrument of protection, all in one package. It is best to consider the broader topic - from a public health point of view - and to stay away from the political agendas. Consider that various special interest groups have presented several competing points of view about guns. What's the truth? I don't know about you, but I'm interested... I listen, Panther, when you cite reputable sources. I also see the holes in our body of knowledge. What IS the net effect of various paradigms of firearm ownership?

This is a VERY difficult and complex subject, and the human experience right now is most of what we have to go on. When we see the good and the bad from various positions, it's still difficult to know "What next?" Understand that this is coming from the mouth of a libertarian. I just happen to be one that feels a grave and sincere responsibility for my choices. I wish all in our society were so conscientious.

Where are the folks calling for banning knives, cars, baseball bats, and martial arts training?

You live in the wrong state, Panther. In my state, it's easier to get a license and carry a concealed firearm than it is to carry any other weapon. Go figure... State to state, weapon to weapon, issue to issue, the state of affairs makes no sense.

If the medical profession would like to do some “honest research” into preventing child deaths, perhaps they should seek funding to study ways of preventing the 12,000 (yes twelve thousand ) deaths of children which those very same NSC statistics attribute to “ accidental medical errors ”!

Uhhhh... You expecting ME to disagree with you??? Sorry, you're challenging the wrong person.

Part of my job is to uncover issues of quality, inappropriate utilization, and access to care in our community and our population of covered lives. "Medical errors" is this big, ugly thing out there being kept under cover by a system.

The first thing we can do before applying Six Sigma principles to this industry is to extract the ambulance-chasing lawyers from the rears of our medical professionals. You cannot have proper feedback and external review when the critical parties are having trouble meeting their malpractice premiums as it is - WITH the ugly errors covered up. As in any such system, error documentation is a vital part of quality assurance.

These battles are waged one hill at a time. A 1999 Institute of Medicine report To Err is Human did much to bring the issue to the public's attention.Leapfrog is one positive result of opening the kimono, so to write.

See, Panther, good things happen when problems benefit from the disinfecting light of day.

Lenny

Thanks for the sentiments. We could always start a few more threads...

- Bill

[LeeDarrow]

Mabe we should change the name of my forum from Verbal Self Defense to Verbal Attacks and continue these discussions there

At least there will be some action over there.
_________________
Len

Aw c'mon, Let Testa Sensei! I'm TRYING to keep VSD going!


Honest!!!



Lee Darrow, C.Ht.