Why women can't hit hard

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jorvik

Post by jorvik »

David
Yes I was extremely lucky :D .....point is though, sometimes for self defence, you don't have to fight. Very often you can find yourself in a predicament were you think the only way out is to fight.......and it may not be, there may be something else entirely....breaking a fire alarm for example Thing is, if your'e not aware of that mindframe then you will never look for it. Let's be honest, in my case at least there are people on this planet that I will never be able to fight unless I have got automatic weapons and they are unarmed :wink:
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Dana Sheets
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You, me, you die, I die

Post by Dana Sheets »

The above is a poem from the Fukien province (or at least, it is a rough translation of a poem by a 7-star mantis guy I know)

Anyway - the point is that men tend to fight toe to toe, face to face.

Women, for the most part, are not attacked this way. They are caught off guard, caught asleep. I think at that point the force continuum is pretty much out the window. You're going to freeze, run, or fight. So why in the world should we care if a woman makes the right choice in how she defends -- should we just make sure she's got the right tools to use if she chooses to do it?

Dana
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Post by david »

Todd, I do remember you. I just never knew your full name.

Jorvick, I may sound more "aggressive" in my approach on these forums than I really am. I am not, at least not usually, the "hammer type" that believes every thing needs to be hammered. I recognize and utilize other ways. Don't think I would be here today were this not true.
You, me, you die, I die
In other words, MAD - Mutual Assured Destruction. I must say when cornered, that is my bottom line. I don't think I going to beat the BG(s) but I am committed to taking him (and any other) with me straight to HELL! So far, this assurance has dissuaded some and precluded any need for further action.

Generally, if one gets attacked without any hint, the victim -- male or female -- was asleep. There is no gender difference when it comes to "falling asleep." And, generally, a predator looks for prey - male or female -- to be asleep or weaker. This brings it back to the title thread -- something about "Why women can't hit hard." There will always be power discrepancies. One can improve technique and efficiency but I challenge this means much without a change in attitude and spirit. I not female but I am a small guy. I don't hit anywhere as hard as many other folks I know but I am willing to give it a go if I have to. Sure, work on you weaknesses in the dojo. But don't get consumed by the negative. That never carries the day.

I claim no expertise in training women. I have trained a few women in my days. I am aware of "gender differences" but I simply don't make any more accommodation for it than I do for the individual differences, male or female. I assure you females can learn to hit pound for pound as most guys (enough to deck my butt on occaisons) but more important that they develop the heart for doing it.

david
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

You, me, you die, I die
A question to ponder, Todd, is what signals did he read that made him feel comfortable saying this to you?

This is very important to analyze.
I must say when cornered, that is my bottom line. I don't think I going to beat the BG(s) but I am committed to taking him (and any other) with me straight to HELL! So far, this assurance has dissuaded some and precluded any need for further action.
This is the mindset we speak of, a mindset that needs to be projected.

It is like sensing that the person you are about to attack may well have a gun in his pocket and a willingness to blow you into a cheap coffin with it.
Van
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Akil Todd Harvey
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Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

David
MAD - Mutual Assured Destruction...that is my bottom line. I don't think I going to beat the BG(s) but I am committed to taking him (and any other) with me straight to HELL!
I am inclined towards this attitude, slightly modified. I make it known thru body language, eye contact, verbal cues, that while I may not be the toughest guy on the block, I am not the weakest one either. I may be afraid, but I am gonna do my darndest to make sure I ACT thru my fear rather than freeze up in the midst of fear. My intentions MUST be backed up by strong convictions, a readiness for combat at the drop of a hat, not necessarily because I like it, but because that it was is called for at that very moment.

The above is how I act if I am pissed off, stressed out, or otherwise just feeling like a jerk.

When I am feeling good about myself, not overworked, and otherwise things are going well, my approach is different. I make enough eye contact to show that I am not afraid, but not directly challenging, enough to ascertain general intentions and positioning (I need to know when the BG is closing the distance significantly). By not focusing entirely on BG, I keep my senses attuned to whether or not BG has accomplices, escape routes, and available weapons that either I or BG may be able to make use. If the BG closes the distance, I make assertive gestures and more assertive glances to better assess BG and send some signals still somewhat muted, but the intention is there (like MAD).

Where I think I begin to really differ is whether or not to act or react. In most cases I would probably react, rather than act, but I also my reflexes to train to act as well, thinking that lacking that skill, my arsenal would be lacking a critical weapon.

Rather than to merely act directly in all situations, I prefer to utilize strategy when and where possible. I think all are agreed that most likely BG will only act like the BG if he(or she) percieves they are highly likely to succeed (some dont care-not all BG are cut from the same cloth). The way to win against such a BG is to make sure you are aware and perceptive, especially at those times that it is most critical to do so (like when getting in or out of a car, or going to or from the parking lot, upon entering the home or office). You may not say or do anything to ward off an attack other than merely maintain a strong posture (but not super aggressive); you probably wont even know that you just won an encounter as they wont give you a trophy for this...

And you gotta think outside the box, but only after scrutinizing every gosh darn item inside the box, and after that, go look back in the box again, I hear there are some pretty cool stuff in that Uechi box. Remember, the saying is "think outside of the box", not "forget the box".

Go with your gut instincts...... If your gut tells you that some guy that just got on the elevator with you is creepy, then get off the elevator before the door closes. You might spend more time waiting for elevators, but you may save yourself from something horrible.....( a recent issue of Business 2.0 magazine had a great article about going with the gut feelings as it applies to business and such strategies have been applied in the U.S. marines)

Before becoming a Muslim I studied zen philosophy and I found it very useful. Live in the moment. Live not in either the past or the future. What happened to me in the past has happened, it cant be changed, only how I percieve what happened can change at this point. and what I hope to do in the future isnt real until it happens.

Some of you folks probably know more about zen than I, but my understanding about how to achieve the attitude that Sensei Canna refers to can readily come from internalizing the following quote, "You, me, you die, I die ". We all die. That is one of the few things we all have in common; we all are going to die. Knowing that, it is easier to ACT, deliberately and consciously to maintain that life as long as possible, not in the absence of fear, but despite the fear, and the adrenaline rush (practicing acting thru the coctail is important, IMHO, learning how to act rather than be perilized. I need to work on this a bit more. I have to admit that there are times when I tend to freeze up. I am trying to eradicate that tendency.)

One of the reasons I have trouble generating power in the dojo is that I know my life is not on the line. I have respect for my partners and generally do not want to injure them. I practice not so much of the traditional blunt force trauma karate but the eye gauging, tendon grabbing, groin thrashing, double arm-headlock, grappling, whatever it takes to get the job done without much regard for whether or not the BG will be able to breathe after I put 40% of my power concentrated solely on his(or her) windpipe. I fight for my life and before I am prepred to fight to the death I make darned sure that the altercation cannot be avoided.

Part of the mindset I attempt to attain is the aikido one. It is harder to attain as I have never stepped inside an aikido dojo. Supposedly that art is about spiritual harmony, although I have heard that many aikido stylists have as many macho baggage issues as some other stylists, but the idea that I like the most is that you never expend more than 40% of your energy, leaving 60% in reserve.

If I cant hit hard to begin with, then how is limiting the use of my powere gonna help? Think outside the box for a second. Think not only of the weapons on your body that you can hit someone with, but think of the greater objects around you that you can hit someone with.

"The bigger they come the harder they fall"???? True or False? or how about, "The bigger they come the harder they hit"???? I think that no mattter how big you are, or how hard you train there is no part of your body that u could hit with that would be more powerful than if you hit them with the ground. While this is not always an option (no option is always viable), the harder someone tries to hit or kick you, the easier it is to make them hit the concrete with their face or hit the wall with their face. It is hard to take someone down from a jabbing punch necause they are not committing (they have reserved most of their strength.
A question to ponder, Todd, is what signals did he read that made him feel comfortable saying this to you?
I would like to think that he feels comforatble because in our discussion I tried to listen to what he said and respond to that which we had in common, trying to find areas of commonality, rather than focusing on areas of disagreement.

I need to trust that what he says is what he feels, not an attack on me. He needs to trust that I wont attack him for what he says. My attempts were hopefully not to merely persuade him to my point of view, but rather to come away with an understanding of where he comes from and see what he does well that maybe I can pick up on. Whatever portion of what I said that he agrees with or values, he can take with him and whatever he does not agree with, at least he is more apt to look at it with an open mind.

I learned this technique from a Graduate course at UMass Boston in the creative and critical thinking department (this 3 credit course was condensed to 2 weeks in January, 1999. The class was called dialogue and it was taught by a WWII veteran. At first I was super duper skeptical about this old man and how much he could teach us as he appeared about as frail as they come (I came to the table, as they say, with an arm full of personal baggage, preconceptions and issues). He would bring what he called a "talking stick" that in fact did not speak, but allowed the holder of the stick to be the one who was allowed to speak while the others were supposed to listen while suspending judgement of what was being said (which is not easy).

In some ways that class was both good training for how to deal with forums as well as BG's. In a thread on the VSD forum, I think Lee mentioned the notion of not drinking the drink that is being offered to you when someone tries to verbally escalate a situation by either deliberate or subconscious verbal and non-verbal (physical) baiting. By suspending judgement of what is being said, it is easier to not be offended.

One of the underlying notions of the dialogue process is that this is not a debate where I try to argue my point without listening to yours, but a dialogue in which I try to find commonalities of understanding from which we can construct shared meaning.

You think me successful????? Oh please say yes!!!!! Please dont say no!!!! My whole self concept is riding on this one.......

Sensei, if you will, please reveal your insights as to what signals did he read that made him feel comfortable saying this to me would be most appreciated.

David, feel free to jump in......

Dana, Are we doing ok or should we park this some place else?

PEACE, ATH

Call me Akil, or call me Todd, or even call me Harvey, just dont call me late for dinnah
[/quote]
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

Sensei, if you will, please reveal your insights as to what signals did he read that made him feel comfortable saying this to me would be most appreciated.
Good post Todd. Well reasoned.

Hard to say what he read. Perceptions are a reflection of the soul.

There is an evaluation process that takes place subliminally, driven by the appearance and perceived physical traits and mental "force" as projected by a likely opponent.

Were you able to "read" his perception of you?
Van
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Akil Todd Harvey
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Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

Sensei,

Me? Surely you jest. I am not sure I am ready to give myself credit for being able to "read" his perceptions of me with anything like certainty. I am with Heisenberg and am a big believer of his theory of uncertainty.

Like intentions, perceptions, in my book, rarely fall into neat little categories. Rather than having a single perception, is it possible that he may have had conflicting perceptions.

I guess part of my strategy is to give conflicting perceptions. By giving off conflicting signals....gotta go......

I am being interrupted by little woman, who is as patient as she can be with me right now....We are trying to get ready for the Mulim holiday of Eid which will be in a day or two (it is uncertain as we are looking for the sighting of the new moon-please dont ask me why we dont use an astronomical calendar-some Muslims do while others use the more traditional methods).....I am not trying to get into a big religious debate, but I thought you should know why I am gonna be kind of scarce for a few days. Eid, a holiday which comes at a different time from year to year, cycling throughout the year over the course of a decade or more, is the catholic approx. equivalent of Christmas and if I dont go out and get her some fresh meat, she is gonna turn me into fresh meat......Sometimes, I wonder if I taught her too much???? Joke....please recognize this as a joke....

Peace and blessings....
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Post by KerryM »

Know what-

I "used" to think I could tell how people perceived me- but I am so often surprised when I find out how they are "actually" perceiving me- as opposed to what I think I'm putting out- I don't even try to figure it out anymore- I just have to go by face value, and know my intent-

BUT- in a threatening situation- I most certainly belive that one must be able to give a readable "don't f*&^ with me" perception or else there is liable to be some real trouble that wouldn't necessarily have to be there.

K
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

Todd,

Good post, and a happy holiday to you and the little woman. Bless you all.

Kerry,

Good point.
Van
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Panther
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Post by Panther »

Interesting thread...

As far as women hitting as hard as men... All I can say is I'd rather take a shot from most of the men I know before I took one from Margaret Chojin or Dana Sheets! 8O I've seen the power they generate and I don't care how long it took I don't want to be on the receiving end! ;)

On carrying a gun and when to use it or not... sometimes you don't have to use it in order to use it. (OK, that doesn't seem to make sense, so I'll explain...) This wasn't the first time things have worked out this way for me, just the most recent.

A guy in a local restaurant/pub/hangout has had way too much to drink. He decides (for whatever reason) to pick on some folks (a common modus operandi for this person). To distract him, I (such finite wisdom I have... not :roll: ) "accept" his challenge to play pool. Two games... he lost both of them... hey, he was drunk! I wasn't even trying to win! Anyway, he got upset and started yelling and threatened to get me. I walked away... he storms out. I figure it's just drunken rage and he'll get over it. I know the guy... he's a regular at this place. About an hour later, I'm leaving... walking to my car... and this guy gets out of his car with some sort of club. I looked at him and said, "Now Frank, you just made the biggest mistake you've ever made." He smirks back, "Oh yeah, what's that?" I informed, "you came to a gun-fight without a gun." We stared into each others eyes for a second and he started crying. I asked him if he was alright to drive home and he said that he'd sobered up enough and he'd be fine. A week later, we bought each other a round and he's turned into one of the nicest guys at the hangout. Must have been one of those full moons that Sensei Mattson mentioned recently. ;)

Take care and be good to each other...

:x-mas:
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Akil Todd Harvey
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Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

Panther,

Glad to hear things worked well for you. I cannot help buy worry, though, had things turned out differently. Suppose instead of of showing up the next time with a willingness to share a round, he showed up with his sawed-off shot gun.

From reading your post, it appears as if mentioning the gun (indirectly) may have been unnnecssary. I think one of the reasons he seemed to give up his desire to fight without even needing to see the gun (you did not mention showing the gun to the guy) is that you took the time to play two games of pool with the guy despite his belligerance.

Guys are not exactly taught how to ask for attention or examine their feelings. We often act out as ways to get attention. Giving the man the attention he seems to have needed would appear to have been the greater part of the de-escalation that was needed here. I applaud your success in that regard. Personally, I think that was a greater factor in your success rather than the mentioning of the gun.

Peace, ATH
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Panther
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Post by Panther »

ATH,

In these types of situations, sometimes you have to go on your gut feelings. My "gut" told me that this guy was just looking to vent on something or someone and I was tagged "it". My "gut" told me that he wasn't a murderer, but I knew that he'd "gotten into it" with other people on previous occasions... physically. I knew that he was just one of those people who turns into a belligerent bully when he's drunk. So... With all that knowledge and "gut" feelings, I decided that the way to diffuse him at that point in time was to inform him that his chances of taking out his wrath on me were slim and none. I was fortunate... I was right... He'd just never had anyone stand up to him without getting physical. And he looked in my eyes and knew I was serious... if needed. There was more that led up to that statement not in the first post for brevity sake. I didn't just start out that way, I tried to calm him and diffuse to begin with, but he wasn't having any of that when he thought it was him with a club against me bare-handed. I don't normally use that method to diffuse, but it's worked on occasion.

Take care...
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Akil Todd Harvey
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Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

Panther,

Glad to hear it worked out well. It can be hard to explain why your gut was telling you to act in a particular manner, not to mention describing in detail, all the info, like how many other folks were around, what the other people's stances & attitiudes were, etc, etc, etc.....

:)

Second guessing is a little too easy while making a good choice is often not so easy.

ATH
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Akil Todd Harvey
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Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

Panther,

Glad to hear it worked out well. It can be hard to explain why your gut was telling you to act in a particular manner, not to mention describing in detail, all the info, like how many other folks were around, what the other people's stances & attitiudes were, etc, etc, etc.....

:)

Second guessing is a little too easy while making a good choice is often not so easy.

ATH
RachelL
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says who ?

Post by RachelL »

Woman can't hit hard??? Compared to what? Woman have been told that they can't or don't hit hard so often over the years that most started to believe what they had been hearing. Boys are taught to hit and fight and little girls are told that it is not lady like to fight. Unless of course a girl is raised in a home along with older and younger brothers, they will learn how to fight just to survive. Unless they are Bradys. But for the most part most girls/woman don't hit hard because of physical development and never having to hit things. It is more macho to hit than lady like.
I used to shudder when a 'teacher' I know used to tell his boys in class that they hit like girls. Then he should have been teaching them proper technique because I have seen girls that hit the punch o meter with greater accuracy and technique than most boys, and top out the numbers. Not long ago I watched a tournament and saw the winner of the womans kumite event and said to myself that she should have been fighting the guys so she had even matches.
Is it a physical or psychological make up that creates a good puncher or both. I once heard a story about a woman that beat up her husband so bad that she was arrested and had her kids taken away from her and removed from the home. I do not think this had much to do with being a strong puncer as much as it did with determination, and anger. It happens all the time. In other forums isn't this called mindset?
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