4 1/2 too young?
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4 1/2 too young?
Just finished talking to a co-worker who has enrolled his son (age 4 1/2) in TKD. Last night he got his first yellow stripe on his yellow belt. No body conditioning or sparring. Is that too young?
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Tom Faigle
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- Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Fairfax, VA, USA
Mary,
I'm not an expert, and each kid is different, but I can tell you that my son started Uechi-Ryu last year at 6. Looking back it might have been a little too early for him. Just recently he's been getting into it and actually practicing hard and beginning to understand the katas (Sanchin and Kanshiwa).
A friend of mine has her kids in TKD. She also has a 4 year old and a 6 year old. From what I've seen of her kids it's helping them a little with discipline, but I wouldn't say that they're learning much Martial Arts from it. Another friend of mine is looking to start her 5 year old in Martial Arts. My recommendation based on my experience is to wait a little. 6 being ok, but 7 being even better. Again it depends on the style, the instructor and the child, I truely believe that anything before 6 or 7 (maybe even 8 for some kids) is just a fancy dance class. (but that's just my opinion)
Tom
I'm not an expert, and each kid is different, but I can tell you that my son started Uechi-Ryu last year at 6. Looking back it might have been a little too early for him. Just recently he's been getting into it and actually practicing hard and beginning to understand the katas (Sanchin and Kanshiwa).
A friend of mine has her kids in TKD. She also has a 4 year old and a 6 year old. From what I've seen of her kids it's helping them a little with discipline, but I wouldn't say that they're learning much Martial Arts from it. Another friend of mine is looking to start her 5 year old in Martial Arts. My recommendation based on my experience is to wait a little. 6 being ok, but 7 being even better. Again it depends on the style, the instructor and the child, I truely believe that anything before 6 or 7 (maybe even 8 for some kids) is just a fancy dance class. (but that's just my opinion)
Tom
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gmattson
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Well yes..... but
Interesting question Mary and one that "old-line" traditionalist will answer much differently then the new-age instructors.
No question that 4-6 year olds are not learning much self-defense, but they are learning discipline that many of them can't get anywhere else.
Whatever you call it. . . if the kid likes what is being taught to them, they will stick with it as they grow up. Most dojo keep their kids in their program for quite a few years. Why? Because they got them early and before another, competing program got to them.
The old-liners take a five year old and bore them to death with Sanchin. The smart teachers develop creative drills, exercises and games that keep the kids interested. . . and keep them in the program.
Ever been to a junior black belt test? The one's I've been to are very impressive. Yes, they got their start playing karate games, but when they are ready. . . the transition is smooth and complete.
So Mary, the answer to your question is "Can the teacher work with the child?" and "Can the child accept what the teacher has to offer?"
Lets hear from some of the "new age" teachers. I know many are afraid to post anything for fear of being ridiculed. . . but Bill might find the discussion interesting.
No question that 4-6 year olds are not learning much self-defense, but they are learning discipline that many of them can't get anywhere else.
Whatever you call it. . . if the kid likes what is being taught to them, they will stick with it as they grow up. Most dojo keep their kids in their program for quite a few years. Why? Because they got them early and before another, competing program got to them.
The old-liners take a five year old and bore them to death with Sanchin. The smart teachers develop creative drills, exercises and games that keep the kids interested. . . and keep them in the program.
Ever been to a junior black belt test? The one's I've been to are very impressive. Yes, they got their start playing karate games, but when they are ready. . . the transition is smooth and complete.
So Mary, the answer to your question is "Can the teacher work with the child?" and "Can the child accept what the teacher has to offer?"
Lets hear from some of the "new age" teachers. I know many are afraid to post anything for fear of being ridiculed. . . but Bill might find the discussion interesting.
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
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Bill Glasheen
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- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
First of all, there are martial arts classes and then there are martial arts classes.
My rule of thumb for anything reasonably resembling martial arts is at least 6 years of age. The two things that most determine whether someone is ready or not is attention span and desire.
However there are a number of "little dragon" programs for the tiny kiddies that are helpful and teach the kids something. But they are no more about martial arts than the gymnastics program my 4-year-old does is about gymnastics. What you want to do in those programs is get kids to use their bodies through play. You just happen to use karate-like moves while doing that, or teach physical concepts that are useful later on when you REALLY want to learn martial arts.
There are non-style organizations available to help people run kiddy and kid programs for martial arts. A few in the martial arts community make quite a bit of revenue from these generic martial play programs. That keeps the lights on and doors open for the really serious students. Perhaps if I can get Kunoichi or others to post, I'll get them to communicate contact information for these organizations.
- Bill
My rule of thumb for anything reasonably resembling martial arts is at least 6 years of age. The two things that most determine whether someone is ready or not is attention span and desire.
However there are a number of "little dragon" programs for the tiny kiddies that are helpful and teach the kids something. But they are no more about martial arts than the gymnastics program my 4-year-old does is about gymnastics. What you want to do in those programs is get kids to use their bodies through play. You just happen to use karate-like moves while doing that, or teach physical concepts that are useful later on when you REALLY want to learn martial arts.
There are non-style organizations available to help people run kiddy and kid programs for martial arts. A few in the martial arts community make quite a bit of revenue from these generic martial play programs. That keeps the lights on and doors open for the really serious students. Perhaps if I can get Kunoichi or others to post, I'll get them to communicate contact information for these organizations.
- Bill
Very good responses so far!!! 
I guess my thought is that it's never too early to instill respect and discipline and I know a lot of martial arts institutes do the "family" thing (which I think is wonderful). I just wonder if at that age the body is developed enough for what comes its way (I know I said no sparring and/or conditioning but we all know what kids are like!!) Are little muscles and bones developed enough at that age for the physical activities that some martial arts offer?
I guess my thought is that it's never too early to instill respect and discipline and I know a lot of martial arts institutes do the "family" thing (which I think is wonderful). I just wonder if at that age the body is developed enough for what comes its way (I know I said no sparring and/or conditioning but we all know what kids are like!!) Are little muscles and bones developed enough at that age for the physical activities that some martial arts offer?I think 4-6 year olds are just the coolest age and I love teaching them yoga and karate. NAPMA has an excellent children's program called Little Ninjas. This program offers children a strong foundation in essential character qualities such a courtesy and discipline. In addition, the program is designed to improve motor skills and teach children to work with other children respectfully in a safe, positive environment.
When it comes to children's health, I would rather err on the side of caution as to what little bodies can withstand in training. I don't think karate should hurt children. Plus it's hard enough to retain students and get adults to come back for body conditioning let alone children - who are much smarter then grown ups. I am more of the "let 'em go and let 'em grow" mindset. They're only 4-years old.
When it comes to children's health, I would rather err on the side of caution as to what little bodies can withstand in training. I don't think karate should hurt children. Plus it's hard enough to retain students and get adults to come back for body conditioning let alone children - who are much smarter then grown ups. I am more of the "let 'em go and let 'em grow" mindset. They're only 4-years old.
Last edited by Kunoichi on Wed Dec 18, 2002 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Deb Downing
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Tony-San
The younger a child begins any activity including MA the better I think. Children need however to train in a natural way, by that I mean let them enjoy learning the program and allow them to judge how far to push themselves (if it is fun they will sweat). Pushups and conditioning drills I will not introduce them too nor competitive sparring until they seek it (treat it like street hockey..FUN!)
They certainly make an instructor think due too short attention span and honesty..ever see them yawn? If you fear teaching children you may actually fear being creative, flexable and spontaneous..Quote: "If a man can`t get his point across to a child in 10 minutes, he ought to be shoot" Baden Powell
Got lots of bullet holes myself
They certainly make an instructor think due too short attention span and honesty..ever see them yawn? If you fear teaching children you may actually fear being creative, flexable and spontaneous..Quote: "If a man can`t get his point across to a child in 10 minutes, he ought to be shoot" Baden Powell
Got lots of bullet holes myself
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f.Channell
- Posts: 3541
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- Location: Valhalla
Nice photo Tony.
You could call me new age.
I teach at a youth center, not a Dojo.
I grapple in addition to Uechi.
My adults don't have to wear gi's.
I'm a big supporter of tournaments.
I've been teaching kids for 2 years now on my own.
I begin kids at 6 years old. At this age they can do Kata and Hojo Undo.
I started at this age because my daughter was 6 at the time and I figured if she could do it others could.
At that time I did a half hour of Karate and them 1/2 hour of games or mat work like rolling and breakfalls.
It took a good 1 1/2 years to do a decent Kanshiwa. She took 4th place in Kata with Sanchin at Raffi's in 2001. I was shocked, with a field of 12 I never thought she would.
I've had other kids sneak in since at 5 1/2 and although it takes a while by 7 they look great.
I believe at 4 years old the parents are the ones who want them in lessons, not so much the kids themselves. There are very few programs at that age for kids so it's a good age to get them in.
Some kids at 6 just aren't ready yet, and just want to play. I have an 8 year old jumping bean right now I'm trying to get in line.
I've thought about a 4-6 year old class, with no stripes, just kicks and strikes and lots of games, if I try it I'll let you know how it works out.
For those who don't realize what kids do now a days, take my daughter who is 11 for example:
Karate
Judo
Basketball
music lessons
sewing lessons
dance classes
choir
girlscouts
church
homework 1-2 hours a night
I don't know how she does it, but she gets all A's, but if Karate wasn't fun, you can see why a kid would quit.
Fred
You could call me new age.
I teach at a youth center, not a Dojo.
I grapple in addition to Uechi.
My adults don't have to wear gi's.
I'm a big supporter of tournaments.
I've been teaching kids for 2 years now on my own.
I begin kids at 6 years old. At this age they can do Kata and Hojo Undo.
I started at this age because my daughter was 6 at the time and I figured if she could do it others could.
At that time I did a half hour of Karate and them 1/2 hour of games or mat work like rolling and breakfalls.
It took a good 1 1/2 years to do a decent Kanshiwa. She took 4th place in Kata with Sanchin at Raffi's in 2001. I was shocked, with a field of 12 I never thought she would.
I've had other kids sneak in since at 5 1/2 and although it takes a while by 7 they look great.
I believe at 4 years old the parents are the ones who want them in lessons, not so much the kids themselves. There are very few programs at that age for kids so it's a good age to get them in.
Some kids at 6 just aren't ready yet, and just want to play. I have an 8 year old jumping bean right now I'm trying to get in line.
I've thought about a 4-6 year old class, with no stripes, just kicks and strikes and lots of games, if I try it I'll let you know how it works out.
For those who don't realize what kids do now a days, take my daughter who is 11 for example:
Karate
Judo
Basketball
music lessons
sewing lessons
dance classes
choir
girlscouts
church
homework 1-2 hours a night
I don't know how she does it, but she gets all A's, but if Karate wasn't fun, you can see why a kid would quit.
Fred
Sans Peur Ne Obliviscaris
www.hinghamkarate.com
www.hinghamkarate.com
One inportant question that must be asked when interviewing parent and child before enrolling a 4 year old in a karate class is ...Who wants these lessons? What do you and or the child expect to get out of particpation in this program? Are the lessons for the child or is the child doing the karate for the parent? Can this also be said about young children being enrolled in gymnastics, dance, ice skating, swimming or any sport that will start them as young as 4 or younger. Are the parents enrolling the kids for the right reasons. It is hopeful that they will find an honest, educated teacher who is good with kids and programing. Not bore the kids to quitting with technicalities that even adults don't grasp for years. The whole idea behind kids in sports is to have fun and to learn at an early age the importance of good health through exercise and skill, and body development.
We have to be sure that we teach them for the right reasons and teach the right things that will enhance growth, understanding and development.
I have had the opportunity to sit in and assist in a class of 'tiny tigers' who because of the way they are taught are developing an understanding of Japanese terminology, technique, respect and how they can have fun while learning. At the end of the year the demonstration / awards ceremony show for families is the highlight of the program. These babies who just learned balance and how to walk just a short time ago are now kicking and punching with grace and enthusiasm, demonstrating skills in memory by knowing short routines. This not only enhances motor skills but brain development as well.
The highlight for the school I am told is when some, not all, of these tiny tigers are old enough and skillful enough to earn their Junior Black Belt. Now these kids are the future of karate because they grew into and up with it. Will they stay with it, only time will tell.
In some cases this is just another way for McDojo to tap into the indu$try.
We have to be sure that we teach them for the right reasons and teach the right things that will enhance growth, understanding and development.
I have had the opportunity to sit in and assist in a class of 'tiny tigers' who because of the way they are taught are developing an understanding of Japanese terminology, technique, respect and how they can have fun while learning. At the end of the year the demonstration / awards ceremony show for families is the highlight of the program. These babies who just learned balance and how to walk just a short time ago are now kicking and punching with grace and enthusiasm, demonstrating skills in memory by knowing short routines. This not only enhances motor skills but brain development as well.
The highlight for the school I am told is when some, not all, of these tiny tigers are old enough and skillful enough to earn their Junior Black Belt. Now these kids are the future of karate because they grew into and up with it. Will they stay with it, only time will tell.
In some cases this is just another way for McDojo to tap into the indu$try.
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Akil Todd Harvey
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Excellent question and excellent posts,
Another side of this question is at what age can a child be given a black belt. Everytime I judge an "open" tournament (open to all styles), I get a good laugh out of the 5-6 year old black belt category. Boy do they put the fear of God in me, NOT!
IMHO, there is no too early if the program is well designed. 2 or 3 years old would probably be too early for an organized program, but that is exactly when I would be starting my kid (gently, and with lots of fun), if not sooner.
ATH
Another side of this question is at what age can a child be given a black belt. Everytime I judge an "open" tournament (open to all styles), I get a good laugh out of the 5-6 year old black belt category. Boy do they put the fear of God in me, NOT!
IMHO, there is no too early if the program is well designed. 2 or 3 years old would probably be too early for an organized program, but that is exactly when I would be starting my kid (gently, and with lots of fun), if not sooner.
ATH
Treat them the same!
Hi Mary, How are you?
Having been on both sides of the argument about how early do you start the training, I firmly believe it is entirerly up to the child as to what they will or will not be able to learn. But do not think that they can not learn kata and or techniques.
I started a Tiny Tot Class for 4-6 year olds, which runs for two half hour sessions a week, last year. I have only retained 4 out of 10 who tried it for a month. However, two of these 4, a four year old girl and a 5 year old boy, won First and Second place respectively in the 5 and under kata division during the Randolph Challenge which is the 1st tournament of the 1st Annual New England Junior Uechi-ryu Karate Championship Series.
My Tiny Tots started out learning basic punches, kicks, and balance. We played the Box Kicking Drill (see the Karate Kids and Teens Forum Thread: Drills for Kids) many times to make learn the form of the kick with balance and agility. Slowly I introduced the opening moves of Sanchin. Many didfferent stepping and turning drills, then I added in Sanchin Strikes, and blocks. As noted above you can see the results of this training.
Some points to remember when teaching 4 year olds:
Teach them the same as any other student.
Go very slowly though, introducing something new each class. Tell them to practice it.
Let them fight. They love it! They will not hurt each other if you keep control. Start by having one student be offensive and the other deffensive
Do not talk to them too much. Instead, ask questions about what you are teaching that they can answer.
Make classes FUNDo not make them perform the same technique 25 times in a row like you would have an adult practice. Limit your repetion drills to no more than 10
I have to get off now. I will try to post more suggestions at a later time
Having been on both sides of the argument about how early do you start the training, I firmly believe it is entirerly up to the child as to what they will or will not be able to learn. But do not think that they can not learn kata and or techniques.
I started a Tiny Tot Class for 4-6 year olds, which runs for two half hour sessions a week, last year. I have only retained 4 out of 10 who tried it for a month. However, two of these 4, a four year old girl and a 5 year old boy, won First and Second place respectively in the 5 and under kata division during the Randolph Challenge which is the 1st tournament of the 1st Annual New England Junior Uechi-ryu Karate Championship Series.
My Tiny Tots started out learning basic punches, kicks, and balance. We played the Box Kicking Drill (see the Karate Kids and Teens Forum Thread: Drills for Kids) many times to make learn the form of the kick with balance and agility. Slowly I introduced the opening moves of Sanchin. Many didfferent stepping and turning drills, then I added in Sanchin Strikes, and blocks. As noted above you can see the results of this training.
Some points to remember when teaching 4 year olds:
Teach them the same as any other student.
Go very slowly though, introducing something new each class. Tell them to practice it.
Let them fight. They love it! They will not hurt each other if you keep control. Start by having one student be offensive and the other deffensive
Do not talk to them too much. Instead, ask questions about what you are teaching that they can answer.
Make classes FUNDo not make them perform the same technique 25 times in a row like you would have an adult practice. Limit your repetion drills to no more than 10
I have to get off now. I will try to post more suggestions at a later time
Len
Good question Akil, but as we frequently see here and on other forums there are so so many opinions and thoughts. Mine is just one of many.
With regard to setting age and material requirements for a student to test and be promoted to black belt every organization down to individual dojo has it's own policy.
Some organizations (and this is nothing against any particular style or organization) such as XXX, where it is more frequently seen, promote these kids to keep them on board. This is done with hopes that it will not only make the child happy but more importantly make the parents who pay tuition, equipment, belt test, and tournament fees happy and proud of their 5 year old black belt. This way they continue to support the dojo/dojang with activities and sponsorship fundraisers etc. They are happy to make donations of furniture, equipment, and decor to the studio because they are feeling that the studio is doing something good for their child.
Can a 5-6 year old understand the responsibilities of being a black belt? Are there responsibilities to being a black belt at that age? Will a black belt later in their life mean any more to them than it does at the time they get it at 5 - 6 years old? Hmmm, will they even be around long enough to be awarded a 'real' black belt?
I am told that our dojo gets calls from parents with children as young as 2-3 years old, they will not take a child that young and always refer them to a gymnastics program for stength, balance and coordination training. Even some pre schools won't take kids this young especially if they are still in diapers. We advise parents to come back when the child is 4 1/2. Sure sometimes they never come back but some do, we don't want them all, we can't handle them all.
Even at 4 1/2 each child is evaluated before being accepted into the program. Every child is different and have indiviualized learning styles so we have a standardized performance evaluation that was developed at the dojo that each 'tiny tiger' must pass before being accepted.
How many of us have seen the 'runner' a child that takes off from the dojo like a flash to check to see where mom is? Who has put up with the 'screamer'? Who had wiped up a puddle of pee delaying the next class to start so the floor can be disinfected? Can you legally without possible legal problems assist a child in a restroom because mom took off to make a phone call during class? What about tying a belt that keeps falling off?
( this is the best reason that kids should'nt get belts IMHO).
Maybe I got off track but running childrens especially 2-4 years old classes has to be a difficult task for an untrained "karate instructor" used to older teens and adults. Not on subject but ( again my opinion) I think that tuition for children should be more than adults and tuition for 4-6 years olds and under should be even more because of specialization. that brings us to another topic for another time, How long should these classes be to be beneficial?
With regard to your own child Akil, exposure is the best thing that you can do at a very early age. We should not force our children to do what we do because we like it. If through the exposure you see kicks and punches being done while you do it and form starting to develop and lots of questions being asked gradually introduce things that will stimulate their interest. Don't start throwing playground balls for reaction drills, don't have them run wind sprints or jog beside your car for endurance or teach makiwara drills (just kidding) with a 2-3 year old. There are some great books out on teaching children with lots of great ideas. There are lots of super ideas not yet put in books or on paper as I have seen when visiting different schools.
Your method that you mentioned "gently and with lots of fun" will work after a fair amount of exposure. But only if you have a willing participant.
With regard to setting age and material requirements for a student to test and be promoted to black belt every organization down to individual dojo has it's own policy.
Some organizations (and this is nothing against any particular style or organization) such as XXX, where it is more frequently seen, promote these kids to keep them on board. This is done with hopes that it will not only make the child happy but more importantly make the parents who pay tuition, equipment, belt test, and tournament fees happy and proud of their 5 year old black belt. This way they continue to support the dojo/dojang with activities and sponsorship fundraisers etc. They are happy to make donations of furniture, equipment, and decor to the studio because they are feeling that the studio is doing something good for their child.
Can a 5-6 year old understand the responsibilities of being a black belt? Are there responsibilities to being a black belt at that age? Will a black belt later in their life mean any more to them than it does at the time they get it at 5 - 6 years old? Hmmm, will they even be around long enough to be awarded a 'real' black belt?
I am told that our dojo gets calls from parents with children as young as 2-3 years old, they will not take a child that young and always refer them to a gymnastics program for stength, balance and coordination training. Even some pre schools won't take kids this young especially if they are still in diapers. We advise parents to come back when the child is 4 1/2. Sure sometimes they never come back but some do, we don't want them all, we can't handle them all.
Even at 4 1/2 each child is evaluated before being accepted into the program. Every child is different and have indiviualized learning styles so we have a standardized performance evaluation that was developed at the dojo that each 'tiny tiger' must pass before being accepted.
How many of us have seen the 'runner' a child that takes off from the dojo like a flash to check to see where mom is? Who has put up with the 'screamer'? Who had wiped up a puddle of pee delaying the next class to start so the floor can be disinfected? Can you legally without possible legal problems assist a child in a restroom because mom took off to make a phone call during class? What about tying a belt that keeps falling off?
( this is the best reason that kids should'nt get belts IMHO).
Maybe I got off track but running childrens especially 2-4 years old classes has to be a difficult task for an untrained "karate instructor" used to older teens and adults. Not on subject but ( again my opinion) I think that tuition for children should be more than adults and tuition for 4-6 years olds and under should be even more because of specialization. that brings us to another topic for another time, How long should these classes be to be beneficial?
With regard to your own child Akil, exposure is the best thing that you can do at a very early age. We should not force our children to do what we do because we like it. If through the exposure you see kicks and punches being done while you do it and form starting to develop and lots of questions being asked gradually introduce things that will stimulate their interest. Don't start throwing playground balls for reaction drills, don't have them run wind sprints or jog beside your car for endurance or teach makiwara drills (just kidding) with a 2-3 year old. There are some great books out on teaching children with lots of great ideas. There are lots of super ideas not yet put in books or on paper as I have seen when visiting different schools.
Your method that you mentioned "gently and with lots of fun" will work after a fair amount of exposure. But only if you have a willing participant.
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Akil Todd Harvey
- Posts: 790
- Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Tallahassee, FL
- Contact:
I have been thinking a lot about this and wondering if I was rash in saying that I would start my kid at 2-3....
you all seem to bring up some very interesting points....
My concern and my reasons for saying I would start so early (I dont have any kids yet) is that I feel that kids start feeling the pressures of aggresion at an early age.
I would want to spare my kid of most of the bulling that occurs in schools and is rarely addressed by schools....
Please take what I said with a grain of salt.....My eagerness to protect my child spoke a little louder than my thinking about the ramifications....
PEACE,
ATH
you all seem to bring up some very interesting points....
My concern and my reasons for saying I would start so early (I dont have any kids yet) is that I feel that kids start feeling the pressures of aggresion at an early age.
I would want to spare my kid of most of the bulling that occurs in schools and is rarely addressed by schools....
Please take what I said with a grain of salt.....My eagerness to protect my child spoke a little louder than my thinking about the ramifications....
PEACE,
ATH
My first sabumnim started training his daugther before she could talk. By about two she could scream "TANG SOO" and throw one hell of a punch from a full split. It was cute, but she if she kept doing that, her muscles are now flexible and strong.
On another note, if you want to learn a second language without an accent, you almost can't do it if you're over 3 or 4. The younger you are, the easier it is for your body to make biological changes to accomodate... apply that.?... My mom made me play the piano and I hated it, and quit as soon as she gave me the chance. But BOY did it come in handy over the next 15 years, and im sure it will continue to be useful.
On another note, if you want to learn a second language without an accent, you almost can't do it if you're over 3 or 4. The younger you are, the easier it is for your body to make biological changes to accomodate... apply that.?... My mom made me play the piano and I hated it, and quit as soon as she gave me the chance. But BOY did it come in handy over the next 15 years, and im sure it will continue to be useful.
