What's the best way to document

[Bill Glasheen]

Since I've been able to get a few regular advanced dans in the class again (since moving to Richmond), I've once again had the opportunity to bounce some ideas off people and have partners to play and experiment with. I take great delight in being able to come up with kata interpretations, and lately they've started to accumulate.

In the past when I had been developing partner exercises for the hojoundo, I finally sat down one day and collected them all into a series of exercises I call the hojoundo bunkai. There are twelve to go along with the 13 hojoundo, and I've changed them very little over the years. We use them as a regular part of our training.

Most of the new stuff has come from interpretations of forms. Once again, I'm getting to a point where I feel like I want to document a lot of the stuff we are working on.

So... the question is, what format would work best? What would be a good communication venue? At this point, I can see a number of different possibilities. One would be to make up bunkai to some of the kata, and maybe even present them at dan tests to show students' advanced understanding of the material they are testing for. I'm thinking that a good number of the techniques would be at least as good as (perhaps better than) the quality of material in the seisan bunkai.

The other option would be to string a bunch of them together into a yakusoku kumite. But this would take quite a bit more work, and would be just a little more difficult for folks to learn as the kata moves wouldn't be right there with the moves. On the other hand, good yakusoku kumite can be practiced pretty efficiently, so that would actually make the student do the moves more frequently and perhaps with more spirit.

And since my experience with "the typical student" is one of their being pretty reluctant to do more than the bare minumum, I'm not thinking people will rush to learn anything I choreograph and/or make it part of the system. Well...maybe not today anyhow. But perhaps the idea that a dojo would go to a dan test and demonstrate original dojo choreography as part of a dan test in itself might be a tradition we could start. Certainly I'm not the only one who's done a few "extra" things at a dan test (either personally or with one of my students).

Any thoughts??

- Bill

[IJ]

I'm a big fan of the personal-input-into-dan-testing concept, tho I've never seen it really put into action. The closest I've been able to come is asking some thought provoking questions when I've been charitably included in a test board, to see if a student is just regurgitating seisan bunkai or whether they've thought about why some of it isn't applied, and why some of it is applied, um, not so well.

Communication via test sounds good, but I'm also a fan of using the web. Goes back to my days at uva when experience was in richmond and I was in Cville, and I put everything I could think of on our page so when I and others left they'd have a good resource for conducting their own classes. So all the kata and bunkai ideas among other stuff including one of Bill's other creations,the kicking kata, are all there in what I think is imperfect but decent text. So what I'd do is convert them to text. People with more resources could put such a drill on here for discussion and dissemination. Got videos, Bill?

[Bill Glasheen]

Got videos, Bill?

I'd have to invest a little, but the camera part is no problem. I just need to buy the equipment to digitize the stuff into a nice format.

Should I be like an academic and just put the stuff "out there?" Might be a dangerous precident; some folks like to make a living on this stuff. Should I collect and make a good quality DVD? Should I make cheap mpegs and just have them posted? Should we just keep cranking the stuff out, presenting it at tests and/or camps, and raise the bar for other dojos? These are some of the ideas I'm throwing around in my head...

- Bill

[IJ]

If you want to replicate your suparempi video success, you might try putting some clips out to generate interest in the multi-angle, instructional product to follow.

[Shaolin]

Don't mean to be a wet blanket here.

Just wondering what the significance of choreography would be. New interpretations for kata makes sense to me but I don't understand the use of choreographing a series of movements. WCK is very anti patterns. Even in the forms are very anti-pattern-like. The next movement may or may not have anything to do with the last. I tend to think of kata or forms as simply a library of tools and concepts. I would think the creation of non-pattern-like 'flow drills,' energy drills, sticking drills, or other kinds of drills that employ new ideas using Uechi tools would be higher tech - just my thoughts.

Jim

[IJ]

Do you really need a new drill there though Jim? You can mix in anything you want including your Uechi to the existing flow drills. I do think they make for more interesting learning since it's not repetitive and your partner doesn't play possum for you as much.

I am not a big fan of the kata as toolbox idea. If they're unrelated to each other, why relate them? Why make a form? If you want to go the route of thinking that your actions in a fight will be solely scripted by your opponent's energy, then teach only energy drills and one by one bring new tools into the student's repetoire.

Uechi is very pattern based. You see the same elements transplanted from one kata to another, you see everyone doing hojo undo, you see bunkai and scripted kumite. This is just the difference between japan and southern china, I guess. The truth is somewhere in between and liberated from any one style, to be sure.

True, the scripted bunkai are not going to work in real life. They're too forced. But, if you look at the very ornate and complicated and flowing tricks that fly in trapping range (my reference is my JKD concepts trapping techniques video from paul vunak) during the energy drills, and compare to what vunak does in free sparring, you see the stuff really gets pared down and sometimes brute force plays a bigger role than the magic of sensitivity. You don't win fights just being sensitive. In the blink of an eye something turns the tables to someone's advantage and instead of feeling their energy you've found your way in and you're just beating their brains in.

There's something to be said for having short, unfancy, noncomplicated brutal techniques that will be triggered by common situations (right hook punch? common grabs?) and let loose a serious of nasty responses. Are our hojo undo those techniques? Dunno. But part of karate is doing karate for karate, although people always are happy to paint it otherwise.

[RachelL]

We have been doing what our sensei calls the "hojoundo bunkai" also for as long as I can remember at our dojo. Not only is this a drill that starts out as the basics directly from the Okinawan hojoundo we also have a secondary phase with finishing moves ( counters, locks, takedowns etc) added to 'basic' moves.
The hojoundo can also be done as a ippon or nippon ( one step, two step) kumite / bunkai drill it can also have multiple attack / defense sequence that takes us up and down the length of the dojo.
It will be interesting to see what others are doing with the hojoundo and how they make it exciting and interesting.

[Shaolin]

Do you really need a new drill there though Jim?

Not sure what you mean - need. I am always coming up with new drill ideas to address developmental issues and to make things interesting.

You can mix in anything you want including your Uechi to the existing flow drills.

Well, I was thinking of what Bill was doing more than myself. I don't have any Uechi, per se.

Do you mean Uechi flow drills? If so what are they?

I do think they make for more interesting learning since it's not repetitive and your partner doesn't play possum for you as much.

If I understand you, then I would agree that certain kinds of flow drills that don't follow a set pattern are 'more interesting.'

I am not a big fan of the kata as toolbox idea. If they're unrelated to each other, why relate them? Why make a form?

The idea is how the forms relate to training. I suspect that other systems may (have) also use(d) forms in much the same way as WCK does. The movements in a given form are related in a general context, as in WCK - form 1 is the basic tools and theory - form 2 is the basic tools and theory IN movement - form 3 is the inverse of the first two and address recovery back to the first 2 forms. Each tool or concept expressed in a particular form have something in common but there is no particular sequence that is correct. Some movements, say movements 7 and 8 may be connected, in a sense part of the same move, or thought but have no special connection, save the overall theme with the next group of movements. WCK forms are not 'simulated battles' with an 'invisible opponent,' and again I suspect that this is the case in some other systems as well. Looking at forms in this light may offer new insights into forms. Perhaps the 'jump back' is simply to aid in the training of shifting weight, changing direction, balance and positioning for a counter...

In WCK there is a specific intention to not train patterns because it undoes freedom of expression - the forms follow this. It is readily apparent to anyone looking at the first form in particular (I posted this set in another thread.) The first form looks strange - at least to me - in part because it's simply a collection of moves, perhaps in order of importance, but not in sequence. The moves address basic Centerline theory, basic tools and other basic theories in the system, such as hand unity, hand replacement, immoveable elbow, etc. Why train them? Because it is simply the most effective way to train basics of tools, basic movements and theory both on a conscious and non-conscious level. Forms, while they don't offer resistance or energy interaction they allow one to develop tools with perfect structure, under relaxed conditions, something not possible otherwise. To even approach perfection in combat requires as close to perfect practice as possible and forms offer the first correct step in the right direction.

If you want to go the route of thinking that your actions in a fight will be solely scripted by your opponent's energy, then teach only energy drills and one by one bring new tools into the student's repertoire.

This is over simplification, though it is true that combat is, among other things, about energy - yours and his. Energy drills bridge the gap between form and substance, substance being the actual use in a combat setting.

In WCK the progression is:

Forms
(train the tools and basic concepts)

Basic Drills
(reinforce basic application of the tools with energy)

Dynamic Drills
(train dynamic and spontaneous use of tools with resistance and energy)

Combat Drills
(where all the elements, reactions, use of energy are fine tuned under the pressure of a combat type situation)

Tools can be trained in and of themselves - a palm strike - a punch, a parry. One can train them in the air. One can train them hitting things like bags, shields or even people. However, when one trains them in energy drills (constant contact) with a resisting partner these simple movements take on a new dimension: ENERGY. Suddenly the tools - how they travel - the energy used - the angle used - the exact placement of the elbow, hips, legs - all take on new meaning. It is the understanding of Jing or energy. One may learn a movement without the jing but it is only half the picture when the energy component (both yours and his) is removed. This is what is meant when someone says I studied the palm for six months. It's the study of applying the palm's energy/structure when there are opposing energies and structure present.

Uechi is very pattern based.

{faint rumbling sound briefly stirs a quiet place in Okinowa...}

Which Uechi? The one everyone says they 'stop teaching' when preparation for the dan test is over? This is the 'new Uechi' as I have been told, bristling with long distance, patterned kumite that most of the heavy hitters around here say isn't Uechi.

IMO Master Uechi would never have made his art 'pattern based.'

True, the scripted bunkai are not going to work in real life.

What WCK teaches is that scripted anything doesn't work in real life. This is why I advocate using the pattern of no pattern and training the same way.

But, if you look at the very ornate and complicated and flowing tricks that fly in trapping range (my reference is my JKD concepts trapping techniques video from paul vunak)
during the energy drills, and compare to what vunak does in free sparring, you see the stuff really gets pared down

I can't really address what Vunak does in his drills, since they are his drills and not mine. In WCK economy is the road so simplicity is the objective destination. I have said before that WCK does not attempt to 'trap,' per se, traps are what the opponent does to himself. WCK only attempts to clear and return to the Centerline. Chi Sao is complex in the sense that there is no time limit so many different things can happen - it's fluid - there may also be reversals, but each objective or result is a simple one, and it was the objective all along - to clear and take the Centerline.

and sometimes brute force plays a bigger role than the magic of sensitivity.

Is Vunak teaching magic now too? The Great Vunak!

Of course, there is no magic that I am aware of in any method of any art.

The objective in WCK is to use the least amount of force to get the job done while not opposing the force of the opponent. In a place called Perfect the strength of the opponent is completely negated. But since none of us live in a place called Perfect we have to train hard and develop to the best level we can. It is quite possible to use the concepts of yielding to let force go, this is the secret to undoing brute strength. I have done it a thousand times. It's what the 'changes' and small circles are for in WCK. The same type of concepts are used in grappling system like BJJ to allow a weaker player to choke out a larger one. I believe many of these concepts are present in Uechi - I say explore them. In any case the more one trains these concepts the better are the chances of doing it under adverse circumstances.

Again the objective of WCK is not to get into all these 'traps' and 'interesting' moves, but rather to release energy into the opponents Center and finally vital areas, while not ignoring things like balance control.

You don't win fights just being sensitive.

If sensitivity is one attribute, a single attribute will not normally 'win you fights.' I advocate the development of many different kinds of attributes. What I don't advocate is training that results is the degradation of attributes... This is risked when students train unrealistically. The potential result is a polluted set of natural and learned attributes.

In the blink of an eye something turns the tables to someone's advantage

Yes, that's the objective.

instead of feeling their energy you've found your way in and you're just beating their brains in.

I don't see a distinction. Call it what you wish. Find, Feel it makes no difference to me - feeling is faster than seeing. In close range the one who has the line first will be able to unleash the most schit the fastest...

There's something to be said for having short, unfancy, noncomplicated brutal techniques that will be triggered by common situations

Again, exactly what I always advocate. Short, simple direct.

But part of karate is doing karate for karate, although people always are happy to paint it otherwise.

Otherwise means not doing karate for karate?

I am sure that most people are.

Jim

[Stryke]

This is something that ive been thinking about/tackling for a while

I have what i think are credible complete bunkai for about 17 odd kata now and was looking at a way to document it , The mediums probably the easiest choice , what ive been dabbling with is cross-referencing the kata and making a matrix of aplication principles from the individual techniques , sound confusing .... well yup .... Im starting to realise that kata just as a memory aid is invaluable ......

Im personally thinking something along the lines of a database that will not only show the applications , but cross reference similar applications and/or comparisons In various kata , I sometimes wonder if it`s a futile intellectual pursuit and if I should just shut up and train ....... but it`s a good learning tool ........

anyway good luck in your effort , Id be glad to hear more Ideas ....

[Shaolin]

Maybe it's not realistic, I don't know - to document via encapsulation of concepts in drills. But that is what I was getting at.

Otherwise the database idea is good. You could have a video of the kata that could be played, when clicked the system checks the frame - each frame points to a collection of videos that shows the relevant bunkai for that part of the kata.

Likewise you could search through bunkai select one and then the DB could then run the correct sequence of frames in the kata vid to show that particular sequence.

Hell it might be a big $eller.

Thing is that I think of forms as having endless applications - that's lots of video - whereas a living exercise can cover a lot of stuff given the correct parameters, such as in chi-sao.

Jim

[Ted Dinwiddie]

Bill,

My opinion is: all of the above. Undoubtedly, the stuff you have developed is good and should be recorded and passed on in as many ways as possible. The other aspect to this is the inspiration to those that follow.

Write it down and continually revise the text while preserving all the drafts. Film it in as high-quality a format as possible because quality can be reduced for limited formats, but never increased for precise analysis. Film it alot. Just as with the writing, the evolution will be as informative as the subject matter itself. Present the material "live and in person" every time you can, "raise the bar" for and inspire those that follow.

I am no great shakes as a MA, but I've been around a few in my time and you are a treasure that must be recorded. There are very few, if any, people who combine your professional training and experience with a comparable level of physical training and MA experience. What would we have today if those grainy old photos and poor personal narratives of our past were replaced with DVD and electronic publishing?

[IJ]

Jim, we seem to think in different vocab... traps aren't done by the WCK person, they're what the opponent does to himself--sounds like I don't need to learn anything about it. I'm feeling very concrete today for some reason. My simpleminded approach to martial arts as it relates to this topic:

--Fancy don't work, whether scripted or not

--Some patterns DO work and should be taught so they become reflexive

--if you're learning a whole bunch of techniques, I still don't see the point of relating them (by making a form out of them) if they're unrelated. Just do them separately or mix them into a flow drill. If they relate, or flow, then make a form out of them in a way that reinforces a flow you think would help in whatever purpose you do the form for

--People do martial arts partly because they like to, so it doesn't matter what works best for the street for some of this, they're doing it because they like to and people will say they don't like THAT or THIS but it doesn't matter, because we're talking about how we like to spend our time

--In many a real encounter what's most helpful are long legs, a weapon if you can't get them or use them

--if the above fails you need a preemptive strike -OR- a simple, brutal, powerful and effective entry into a technique they throw first, and once you turn the tide in your direction, you have to be willing and able to kick butt.

--Try to make sure you know whether you're talking about the finger or the moon because otherwise the speaker and the listener get really confused.

[Bill Glasheen]

I think of forms as having endless applications

I'm with you here, Jim. Some of my most favorite moves in Uechi forms have stimulated me to the point that I literally have a dozen applications. (such as "hawk chases sparrow" in seichin/sanseiryu kata). What's more...the variations in application show the student that the sequences and intrabody combinations in kata are "interesting" but not necessarily "sacred."

Why record specific partner patterns? Because the average person does the wrong thing when confronted with a threat. Most people are clueless to a few very simple concepts like moving forwards instead of backwards in response to a threat, thinking of turns as part of the same movement rather than finishing one BG and starting on the next, mixing and matching parts, changing the timing, etc. A few good examples open the mind to the MANY possibilities, and not necessarily to SPECIFIC possibilities.

Ted, I appreciate you vote of confidence. Problem is, the smarter I get, the dumber I feel; it's never ending. But then that never frustrates someone who is a researcher by profession. That's just job security.

In any case, this sounds a lot like what people tell musicians. Record, record, record...

- Bill

[Shaolin]

sounds like I don't need to learn anything about it.

I agree.

Some patterns DO work and should be taught so they become reflexive

Some patterns do work some of the time. No pattern works all of the time. WCK avoids patterns to facilitate freedom of expression.

Bruce wrote:
all fixed set patterns are incapable of adaptability or pliability. The truth is outside of all fixed patterns.

I wrote:

The movements in a given form are related in a general context, as in WCK - form 1 is the basic tools and theory

Ian replied:

I still don't see the point of relating them (by making a form out of them) if they're unrelated.

So as I already said they ARE related. The overall sequence, however, is somewhat random to avoid training patterns. Again this is to facilitate freedom of expression in tool use.

Just do them separately or mix them into a flow drill.

No, the point of forms is to create a peaceful, solo situation for the student to learn how to turn his arms/hands/body into the tools of the system. The only way to develop near perfect tools is to have the student practice near perfect form, slowly under the supervision and correction of a qualified teacher. Learning basic tools in a flow drill does not allow a student to practice perfect form, since the partner's energy will interfere. Flow drills are for developing other attributes. Trying to do it all at once results in sloppy tools. Breaking things down into smaller parts is a proven way of helping to get things right. This is why thousands of styles have forms.

So to sum up: Forms are mainly about developing perfect or near perfect form. Drills are for developing other attributes and depend on the base the forms create.

In many a real encounter what's most helpful are long legs...

Really? Perhaps in a TKD tournament.

Leg length is like 1/2 of an attribute. Plenty of non long legged people out there kicking butt.

Try to make sure you know whether you're talking about the finger or the moon because otherwise the speaker and the listener get really confused.

I am always pointing to the moon, however I can't control where people choose to look.

Jim

[Stryke]

Quote

Thing is that I think of forms as having endless applications - that's lots of video - whereas a living exercise can cover a lot of stuff given the correct parameters, such as in chi-sao.

* I so agree thats really the difficulty , but having said that I feel that thats becoming one of those martial arts sayings .... like it`ll all come in time , Im just really after showing maybe two three ideas per move and getting the imagination going