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Laird <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

He wrote that on Bill's forum in another thread.

I am sure he is not a coward but he sees value in "talking_defusing" which can be a good thing.

But I was going through some scenarios in my head Saturday after having witnessed some ##### giving someone a bad time of it while this someone was trying to defuse and appease.

It was a group of young people made up of a few guys and a few girls cruising the crowded mall in Providence Rhode Island.

What happened was this someone had absentmindedly walked into the group at right angles and brushed up against one of the women.

The more he apologized and tried to defuse, the more brazen one of the punks got into his face, until he was able to walk away with his tail between his legs.

Pretty hard for me to watch that and to feel good about seeing the punk empowered by the event. All my thoughts were about “go ahead and make my day” could not accept verbal defusing in that situation.

Anyone have this problem? I mean for real not just forum talk.


[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited September 04, 2002).]

Van-

I think alot of people have the same problem and probably for the same reason. Way too many people equate "Defusing" with "appeasing" as in your post.

Appeasing doesn't work (cf. Chamberlain/Hitler). And it is NOT defusing. It is only procrastinating, putting off a confrontation that the appeasment may make inevitable.

That's one of the reason why skill, teaching, sharing knowledge-- in short, this forum is so very important.

Rory

That's one of the reasons why teaching how to

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

This is the greatest of observations here, thank you.

It is a real problem because of emotional high jacking and make up.

There is an internal struggle that goes on deep inside that can send one into depression for days, unless one is used to it by constant practice, such as in your work, or police work.

For the average person it is difficult to deal with, especially someone very temperamental in nature.

The logical part of your brain is trying to convince you to "defuse", while the emotional side wants you to drive that punk's head into the bumper of a speeding car.

Appeasement is not defusing. Brilliant and concise. Kudos!

In the scenario outlined, the apology should have been to the lady bumped and, when the "punk" started to get into the face of the bumper, the response might better have been, "I apologized to her, as I bumped her, not you. Have a nice day," and leave. Done calmly and with a coolness, this can often get the blusterer to back off.

Humor can also sometimes deal with a situation like this as well. Something like a LOUD pleading, "Please don't hurt me, Sir!! I apologized! HONEST!!! Don't hurt me!!"

In a mall, as was described, such an action and comment tends to catch the eye(s) of those around the area, including LEO's and Security. They take a dim view of someone threatening someone else.

Some folks around will laugh AT the guy doing the verbal assault, some will back away and Security will come forward to assess the situation. Not a bad response.

Or the Commander Ivanova response: "Don't. You are too young to experience that much pain." Which could, obviously, cause the situation to escalate, but would make HIM throw the first punch. From there, it's self defense.

Some options for the scenario, submitted with seriousness and a little tongue in cheek as well...

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:

Quote:

Robert Heinlein once said, "An insult is like a drink. It only effects one if taken."

A wise stance from a truly gifted gentleman, from whom I got my working definition of what it is to be a gentleman. "A gentleman is exactly that - a gentle man - who can be he** on wheels if you cross him!"

The first quote led me to do some serious thinking and remembering on insults I have been hit with over the years. Perhaps one of the best responses I have ever seen (not mine, but I have used it since) was "Hey! Good line! Mind if I use it sometime?" With a smile and an offered handshake. It completely threw the loudmouth off his guard and defused the situation.

Sometimes, to defend ones'self, one has to think outside the cereal box. Or is that the surreal box? ...!

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

[This message has been edited by LeeDarrow (edited September 12, 2002).]

Please pardon me for not being around. I have been busier than I care to be at this time of year.

Great topic and good points by all.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He wrote that on Bill's forum in another thread.

I am sure he is not a coward but he sees value in "talking_defusing" which can be a good thing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, I am sure that Laird is not a coward also. At least he does not cower to being in a fight. No one who is learning martial arts can be taken as such.

Cowering to litigation may be the driving factor to difusing this type of confrontation that Van had witnessed.

The group was minding their own business so to speak. I really don't think that he was appeasing because he was a coward. The clumsy person who bumped the girl was outnumbered. Knowing this he did everything possible to appologise. The idiot who stepped up to respond when he had no right to was deserving of a thrashing, although he could not invoke one. He was throwing gasoline on the fire and the difuser was not allowing the fire to spread. He has a very admirable personality trait that is not easy to aquire. The idiot who did all the talking had the backing of the group around him. He was trying to act manly in front of his friends. I doubt that he would have given that much of a verbal response back to Mr. Clumsy if it was just him and the girl.

Good points by Lee. I also would have told the guy to shut up and would have directed my appologees to the lady, and left. I would not care if anyone thought that I was cowering. Let someone attack me and I will show otherwise though.

I do agree with Van that some people have a personality that will not allow them to be "talked to" that way. If this guy had that type of personality, Van may have witnessed a fight instead.






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Len

I think the gentleman who swallowed his pride definately took the high road in that scenario, but I guess we'll never know if it was cowardice or self restraint.

Here's my question: does it make any difference if there's a touch involved?
For instance, I was recently at a gas station with a friend and his 15 year old brother. We got sodas and proceeded to the checkout counter where a man was arguing with the cashier. He had purchased a king can of Budweiser (at about 1 p.m. on a weekday) and was telling the cashier that he'd given her a $20 bill and had gotten incorrect change. A supervisor opened the register and informed the man that there were no twenties in it, his reply, "I gave you two tens then." He gave up his effort to scam the gas station, and turned to leave. As he did, my friend's brother dropped some cash and bent to pick it up. The man bent down as well, saying, "I dropped my money, I dropped my money!" My friend's brother snatched it up before the man could get his hands on any. The man looked up to see that my friend and I were less than sympathetic to his plight, and he headed toward us. We were standing side by side, and he walked between us, pushing each of us with a forearm.(headed in the general direction of the door) I said, "Sir, don't touch me." He said, "what, you don't like black people?" To which I replied, "I don't like you." He told me he'd punch me in the mouth, and in an attempt at humor (I knew he was half drunk) I said, "thats assault, brotha!" (a 'Billy Madison' reference he didn't pick up on) He continued threatening me, and at one point he set his can of beer on the window sill. He said, "you think I won't hit you?" and I firmly replied, "I think you shouldn't." Being outnumbered and overhearing the phone call the manager was making to the police, the man picked up his beer and left, spouting KKK accusations and worse.
In retrospect I realize I allowed myself to get baited. On one hand, if I hadn't said anything when he pushed my friend and I, he probably would have stumbled right on out the door. He did no more physical harm to me than someone getting in my face and berating me. On the other hand, he did push me, so did he automatically cross the line and make verbally engaging him the right thing to do?

Hello Austin,
Thanks for joining in.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Here's my question: does it make any difference if there's a touch involved?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depends on the intent of the touch.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

The man was drunk and was acting in a unruley mannor. The fact that he chose to make his way out the door by going through you and your friend left no doubt that he did not have common sense or good judgement.

A lot of people I know would have made some remark to him about the intentional lack of avoiding to go around you and your friend. Even if there was no "clearing out" pushing with his forearms.

However, after witnessing his attempted scamming of the cashier, I would have just shrugged off this act as if it was a stray animal crossing my path. He did not have all his faculties and was not much of a threat other than being noisy and rude.

When you engaged him, he became irritable. He could have vented his frustration at being less than successful in getting the cashier to give him more than his change in return. Everything turned out OK but what if he had smashed the bottle over you or your friends head? You could have provoked him to act even more deliriously.

As it turned out no one was hurt. But your pride was damaged because you felt like you were violated by being pushed. I have seen men fight over less than that. I know of some that would have dropped him as soon as he got close enough to push his way between. It doesn't mean that it is right.

The most important thing is you did the right thing by not escallating the confrontation.


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Len

I hate confrontation but I hate rudeness even more.

I remember one incident last year when I went to pick up my daughter before school let out. I was parallel parking in a spot between two vehicles. The car in front of me was unoccupied and truck behind me had a young man sitting in the drivers seat, listening to his radio while he was waiting.

It took me several attempts to finally get in there. I came close to the truck a couple of times but slowly, watching what I was doing.

During this whole time the guy was muttering loudly, raising his voice, and just being a teenager. After parking, I jumped out of my car, walked right up to his window. I looked him in the eye and said "I am so sorry if I made you uncomfortable but I was watching what I was doing. Did I make you uncomforable? You seemed pretty upset and that is the last thing I would want to do is make someone upset". I said this softly but firmly...and I awaited his response, never breaking eye contact.

I think I took him by surprise because he was non-plussed, not really knowing what to say. He finally said he wasn't upset and seemed uncomfortable.

I think my response was, a smile and "that's good, have a good day" and I walked away.

Strange situation but no problem. Do what they don't expect with confidence and consideration....it's disconcerting. No one loses face.

Vicki

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chef:
I hate confrontation but I hate rudeness even more.

I remember one incident last year when I went to pick up my daughter before school let out. I was parallel parking in a spot between two vehicles. The car in front of me was unoccupied and truck behind me had a young man sitting in the drivers seat, listening to his radio while he was waiting.

It took me several attempts to finally get in there. I came close to the truck a couple of times but slowly, watching what I was doing.

During this whole time the guy was muttering loudly, raising his voice, and just being a teenager. After parking, I jumped out of my car, walked right up to his window. I looked him in the eye and said "I am so sorry if I made you uncomfortable but I was watching what I was doing. Did I make you uncomforable? You seemed pretty upset and that is the last thing I would want to do is make someone upset". I said this softly but firmly...and I awaited his response, never breaking eye contact.

I think I took him by surprise because he was non-plussed, not really knowing what to say. He finally said he wasn't upset and seemed uncomfortable.

I think my response was, a smile and "that's good, have a good day" and I walked away.

Strange situation but no problem. Do what they don't expect with confidence and consideration....it's disconcerting. No one loses face.

Vicki

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sometimes, politeness is the LAST thing anyone expects - and it does throw them into an outside loop.

Great application and probably good kharma, too!

Regards,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

Lee,

Good kharma, I don't know. It's hard to be assertive sometimes without being threatening.

I have learned something from being a mom that has helped me tremendously. My mom would automatically accuse us/me of something if she suspected we did. It was a catch 22, if we did it. If we confessed, we were in trouble; if we lied about it and were found out, we're were in trouble. If we weren't found out, we harbored the guilt or worry of being found out (guilt for being raised a good Catholic girl, the worry for having an older brother who always black mailed my sister and me).

I have learned as a parent when something bothers me not to accuse but simply state the fact of what I see to whom I thought did it, eg. there is a wet towel on my bed stated to my teenager.

This is not accusatory but states the problem, she saves face. Her response is usually one of apology and remediation; she wins and I win. If I had accused her, she loses and I lose. It oftens leads to a power struggle.

In essence, when we have some kind of confrontation, I often find the best response is to state what you see. If you are offended by something another says or does, good response: When you do this (whatever it is), it makes me feel this way-open for discussion without attacking.

It usually works for me, discuss the behavior not the person's character.

Child rearing is such good O.J.T.

Maybe still good 'kharma'.

Vicki

O.J.T.?

Student,

Sorry, O.J.T. is military talk. It means 'on the job training'. My father spent most of his life in the military.

Vicki

I'm one of those people that doesn't do too well when someone tries to punk me out, I rise to the bait and usually call them on it. This just an example and and probably an extreme one at that, but backing down is looked upon as a sign of weakness by most of these modern day punks.

the last time that happened some guy decided he didn't like me for absolutely no reason, he started talking ##### to me when I walked up to the bar to purchase a couple of drinks and my response was "hey Tom(one of my friends) watch this, and i preceded to punch the guy 3 or 4 times and turned on my heel and walked out. If I wouldn't have done this I would have been screwed with all night by this a-hole, so you figure it out, I'm not eating crap for anyone, I'd rather go down swinging.

All i can say is that verbal self defense is great, but without being willing and able to commit to more you ain't gonna get but only so far.