Answer to shaolin's Wing Chun question

[Bill Glasheen]

Shaolin

The fellow I was talking about in town here is Richard (Rick) McGhee. His instructor is (was) the well known Randy Williams, and Rick says he studied from him while in Pennsylvania.

I found a gazillion books written by the guy (RW) when searching online.

- Bill

[Shaolin]

Shaolin

The fellow I was talking about in town here is Richard (Rick) McGhee. His instructor is (was) the well known Randy Williams, and Rick says he studied from him while in Pennsylvania.

I found a gazillion books written by the guy (RW) when searching online.

- Bill

Hey Bill,

Sure, everyone's heard of Randy. I don't have any connection with that group though so I can't comment too much on what they do. He supposedly had some falling out with his Sifu's group so he has been the subject of some controversy on some of the WCK boards.

Did he ever get you started doing any chi sao? I'd be interested to hear what if anything he worked on with you.

Jim

[KerryM]

Who is his agent/publisher? LOL

K

[Shaolin]

Who is his agent/publisher? LOL

K

Here he is with his trademark rattan ring.


Unique Publications

He's got a zillion videos, books, etc.

[Bill Glasheen]

Did he ever get you started doing any chi sao? I'd be interested to hear what if anything he worked on with you.

I can't say we've spent enough time together (yet) for me to claim any acquired knowledge. We're both very busy and we keep passing each other in the gym while teaching different classes. I gave him my card last Saturday, and I expect we'll try to work some private time together.

I'm psyched! It's been a long time coming. Sadly I have had negative vibes from every other WCQ group I came across (exclusivity, etc, etc). Rick seems like he just wants to train, which is fine by me. I expect we'll first work on trading some forms.

The chi sao is the important stuff though. I've been working off a few tapes and books for way too long. I incorporated some of the things I've picked up in these venues into some of my own Uechi applications. I can't wait to work in the flesh with someone that knows what they are doing.

Stay tuned.

- Bill

[Shaolin]

Did he ever get you started doing any chi sao? I'd be interested to hear what if anything he worked on with you.

I can't say we've spent enough time together (yet) for me to claim any acquired knowledge. We're both very busy and we keep passing each other in the gym while teaching different classes. I gave him my card last Saturday, and I expect we'll try to work some private time together.

I'm psyched! It's been a long time coming. Sadly I have had negative vibes from every other WCQ group I came across (exclusivity, etc, etc). Rick seems like he just wants to train, which is fine by me. I expect we'll first work on trading some forms.

The chi sao is the important stuff though. I've been working off a few tapes and books for way too long. I incorporated some of the things I've picked up in these venues into some of my own Uechi applications. I can't wait to work in the flesh with someone that knows what they are doing.

Stay tuned.

- Bill

Well you should be able to get a head start on at least the first form. Plenty of examples on the web - like here:

www.wingchuninteractive.com

The form section is setup to clearly demo the first form. The first form develops the basic tools of the system, which sets up the foundation for everything else. Also the first drill is chain punches which you could certainly work on alone. We WCK peeps spend lots and lots of time on those punches. Those together with the first form will get you ready for what is to come.

The drills I posted a while ago also are a good pre-cursor to chi sao. Before doing moving chi sao it would be a good idea to get the first two forms under your belt. The second form deals with motion, which is essential to moving chi sao.

Sorry, I can't just drop in and show you all of the above I could use the training and it would be a pleasure to pass along this stuff to someone who is really interested.

Just remember the trick to most all the movements in chi sao and WCK is subtle use of forward spring energy (into the line) that comes from the elbows. Keep those elbows in and close to the line! (try touching your elbows together) The hands/arms are initially 'disconnected' from the body and act like shock absorbers until a line opens, at which time the hands arms and body all connect up to generate max power as you penetrate in with attacks.

If I can answer any questions or help out just let me know.

Jim

[the Khazar Kid]

Great Wing Chun site!!

[Bill Glasheen]

Jim

Rick has been by a few times this week. I ran him through sanchin for him, and he ran several of us through Sil Lum Tao.

At one time I was going through this form on my own, gotten completely from a book. This was the first time I had a human walk me through the form. Interesting... Randy Williams puts a lot more snap in his motions that other videos I've seen of Sil Lum Tao, but it's all pretty much the same thing.

I found the site you posted very helpful. Getting the terminology down and the basic applications of the simple movements is very helpful. All good stuff.

Since I already have several Sil Lum Tao references, Rick suggested I first get Randy's footwork video. Interesting... He and I think alike.

So far the only thing about Wing Chun I can see that will drive me nuts is the pivoting on the heels. Aaarrrrgggghhhh!!!!! This is why I finally dumped tai chi. What's up with the heel pivoting? Is it crucial? When does one pivot on heels, and when does one pivot on the toes.

And if Raffi is out there, what's the JKD thinking on this? I know they tend to take more of a boxer's kind of stance with the back heel up.

Thanks.

- Bill

[Shaolin]

Bill,

Would have replied sooner but thought this thread had died.

Randy Williams puts a lot more snap in his motions that other videos I've seen of Sil Lum Tao, but it's all pretty much the same thing.

Not sure. The striking in the first form is loose, fast and does snap. The rhythm being a slow pace that leads up to a sudden snap of the strike going out, like slow, slow, slow - SNAP, then resumes to a slow pace, etc. The key is the relaxed energy being released through the strike and developing it from a short distance - let the arm come to full extension but not locked out. The first third of the form should be done VERY slowly except for the snap of the strikes and the whole form when done by the "old" standards should take about 30 minutes. Also where are your elbows at during the Tan movements, etc? Love to check out your SLT sometime.

I found the site you posted very helpful. Getting the terminology down and the basic applications of the simple movements is very helpful. All good stuff.

Good, glad to hear it. Note that there is more than one way to do the applications shown on that site.

Since I already have several Sil Lum Tao references, Rick suggested I first get Randy's footwork video. Interesting... He and I think alike.

That's fine but I would suggest the second form as it is intended to teach correct motion.

So far the only thing about Wing Chun I can see that will drive me nuts is the pivoting on the heels.
Aaarrrrgggghhhh!!!!! This is why I finally dumped tai chi. What's up with the heel pivoting? Is it crucial? When does one pivot on heels, and when does one pivot on the toes.

Well lets see if we can make this a little more bearable. I think the turning will feel much more natural as you move through chi sao. In essentially does a few important things using a minimum of movement and energy.

I would say that we don't pivot on the heels or the toes - the pivot for us is more in the Center of the feet. This is going to be harder to do without shoes on. The whole body turns as one unit. It is used to both generate power as well as let force slide by or ****** it in. The turn creates a simultaneous sucking and spitting condition as well as moving you off the line of attack, giving you a flank. For example as the turn is done you could use Lop Sao (to receive attack) with the hand that is receding from the turn while hitting with the hand that is advancing from the turn. In sparring or chi sao the turn is often smaller and more subtle but the use of the turning angulations is invaluable when countering a forceful direct attack. Turning is not always needed and it depends on the amount and kind of force coming in. Sometimes it is the opponent's force that actually makes you to turn.

Note that the turning is trained in the second form and is done through 180 degrees in the first section, first from a facing position you turn 90 degrees to the left and then 180 degrees all the way to the right and then 180 degrees back to the left, repeated 3 times. Important that when at the 180 degree ends of the turn the weight should be mostly on the rear leg - feet at 45 degrees angle, butt tucked, back straight. Note that this means as the shift or turn is done that there is a transfer of almost all the body's weight onto the rear leg. The only weight on the front leg should be the weight of the leg itself. It is also taught that the head should remain at the same height as you do the turn - no bobbing up and down.

I recently posted about this on another forum let me paste it here:

In the Chum Kiu pivot or turn the weight should be shifting from one leg to the other - the rear leg, once turned would then bear most of the weight of the body. When halfway between the 180 degree change in facing once would be essentially in the YJKYM posture and THEN weight distribution would be 50/50.

There are numerous effects of having the rear weighted stance not the least of which is to get you out of the way of the direct line of force. Placing the weight over the rear leg with the shift gives sufficient space to yield or borrow, while fully supporting our structure through the alignment and CONNECTION of the body with the rear foot/leg. This COILED leg can issue energy into the structure at a moment's notice. Footwork is great but remember that WCK was designed to be used in a small space - and in a small confined space you may have VERY little room to move. This turning makes the most of a very small space but with the weight centered your CG or the Centerline does not change. It is the actual SHIFT of weight that moves the Centerline with respect to the opponent...

The whole turning and coiling element seems consistant with Shaolin systems and reminds me of the Snake influence in the art in miniature. Shaolin arts like Snake will coil way down placing all the weight on the rear leg and have their butt nearly on the ground. WCK, also a Shaolin art adjusts this exaggerated deep move with a faster more economical movement. But the essence of the concept is still there and that means rear weighted from the 180 degree Chum Kiu posture.

This turning is used like a revolving door to redirect force as it comes in as well as provide for a small flank. The turning generates body torque which when added to the regular punch in the system turns this punch into the whipping punch - try the regular punches with the turn added in and see what happens - keep the butt tucked. The fist should still go out straight but there will be greater speed and the path of the punch will tend to curve at the end due to the body 'turn.'

Hey what about those chain punches. Also have you worked any Pak Sao, Lop Sao exercises? I highly recommend them.

Here's the latest vid posted on one of my senior's web site - sorry its in Cantonese but the motions are there to be studied. He is mainly talking about how the single sticking hands acts as a seed leading into full chi sao.

http://www.sunnytang.com/vingtsun/China ... index.html

Jim