Sit down and shut up.

Kevin Mackie · Post by **Kevin Mackie** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 11:42 am

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... aq_moore_1

This alleged director fully takes advantage of his right to speak yet he's more than happy to try and strip millions of law abiding Americans of theirs to bear arms.

I guess he hasn't chosen to interpret the First Amendment as it applies only to protection against the government's censorship of free speech. The academy should have struck up the band loudly and had an army of goons whisk these people off the stage last night, as would have been their right as a private organization.

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 4:22 pm

Absolutely Kevin!

I was going to log on and post about this crap myself, but you beat me to it!

notice: I'm going to jump in here, not as this forum's moderator, but as a disgusted citizen participant.

<hr>

Michael Moore first propelled his "career" with Roger and me. A "documentary" (and I use that term loosely) about his dealings with the head of GM. That film was filled with half-truths and lies... and it should have drummed him out of the business. But, the message of the film was "Big Business == Bad, bad, bad... Power to the Workers who are oppressed". That message fits with the pro-communist, pro-socialist, ultra-left-wing views of the Hollywierd elite and therefore, he was praised and the blatant lies were explained as "literary license". Fast forward...

Michael Moore makes a propaganda film called Bowling for Colombine which is claimed to be a "documentary" (and I use the term very loosely) which is nothing more than an anti-gun, anti-freedom, anti-American film filled with half-truths, fabrications and out-right LIES.

Many of the things he films as "happening" NEVER DID! For example: In this film he shows a bank where they "give you a gun for opening an account. He goes in and says he wants to open the account where he can get the gun and they oblidge by opening an account for him. Then he shows them giving him a bolt-action rifle... right then! Completely staged falsehood! The truth is that the bank in question offered gift certificates (coupons) to a local sporting goods store for opening an account! You had to go to that store to redeem your coupon and then... IF you passed the required background check and were properly licensed you could use that coupon for anything in the store... including firearms! Yes, the store sold firearms... amoung OTHER things. So, in order to "open the account and get a gun", 1) you never got the firearm at the bank, 2) you had to travel to the store and redeem the coupon, and 3) you had to be properly licensed and pass the NICS check to complete that transaction. OR, you could have recieved many of the NON-firearm items in that store with your coupon!

THAT is misleading propaganda at its worst.

He provably juggles statistics, he has been called "the master of the cheap shot", it has been shown that he has a tendency to throw temper tantrums and manipulate situations to embarass people and companies to do as he wants, and in this film he equates the fact that the U.S. was bombing Kosovo on the day the Colombine tragedy occured with the occurance of that tragedy!

(What the hell has bombing Kosovo to stop genocide got to do with some sick-o teenagers going on a murder spree? ... hint: nothing!)

And yet he wins the oscar for best "documentary"!

In his speech he is disrespectful of our leaders (as I've previously said, it doesn't bother me if someone has viable articulable reasons for disagreeing with the government and/or foreign policy... heck... many good honest, patriotic Americans disagree with many things about the running of our nation... no problem) and proceeds to be disrespectful of our military and our "imperialistic actions"! Grrrrrr.... Yes, he believes that his 1st Amendment Rights are sacrosanct, but wishes to deny everyone else their 2nd Amendment Rights. (Little known is the fact that he uses armed guards in much of his filming... "to defend {him} against those gun-nut whackos".

)

Sorry, but this is one SOB that should be forced to leave... for good!

And the "academy" should be ashamed for giving awards to LIES. In fact, we should all point out at every possible chance the ultra-left-wing, communistic/socialistic propaganda that the academy knowingly supports even though the lies and distortions are blatant and provable. Their support of this type of film is akin to the left-wing's support of Michael Bellesiles' (now thoroughly debunked) book Arming America, which was filled with lies and distortions passed off as the truth and when the real facts and truth were finally revealed, Emory University (to keep their credibility) had to reprimand and dismiss him from their faculty! The academy should learn a lesson from Emory University and reprimand and then dismiss Michael Moore for provable lies and distortions masquarading as a "documentary". They should also strip him of his awards and monetary gains as Emory U did to Bellesiles. It will be a long time and a hard road for Bellesiles to regain any sort of credibility again... and the same should happen of Moore!

<rant mode == off> (for now)

Take care...

Leon DaDamaga · Post by **Leon DaDamaga** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 4:47 pm

I would think that it would be illegal, at the federal level, to carry a gun into any bank, let alone carry one out. I haven't seen the movie, but I was planning on taking a look. Michael Moore does do some funny stuff to cigarette companies though.

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 5:31 pm

Want the TRUTH about this piece of crap passed off as a documentary... Try this link:

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html The Truth about "Bowling for Colombine".

It gives the truth and the proof that Moore:

#1) Lies about Lockheed-Martin and Nuclear Missles!
#2) Lies about through selective editing Heston & the NRA's response to Colombine.
#3) Lies about the founding of the NRA & the KKK and any relationship between.
#4) Lies about the shooting at Buell Elementary School in Michigan.
#5) Lies about the relationship between U.S. aid and the Taliban.
#6) Lies (or otherwise distorts) in comparing Canadian data and U.S. data on violent crime. (But, Hey... Moore's funding for this film came from Canada... Hmmmm...)
#7) He buys ammo in Canada, but Canadian officials have pointed out that the buy is "either staged or illegal".
#8) Claims a plaque on a B-52 "prowdly proclaims that this plane 'killed Vietnamese people on Christmas Eve of 1972'." The actual plaque reads, ""Flying out of Utapao Royal Thai Naval Airfield in southeast Thailand, the crew of 'Diamond Lil' shot down a MIG northeast of Hanoi during 'Linebacker II' action on Christmas eve 1972."
#9) And there is more... including links ot other distortions of fact in the film.

Also here is a WSJ review of this propaganda crap.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/forms/pri ... =110003233

(Part of that review states:)

an early scene in "Bowling" in which Mr. Moore tries to demonstrate how easy it is to obtain guns in America was staged. He goes to a small bank in Traverse City, Mich., that offers various inducements to open an account and claims "I put $1,000 in a long-term account, they did the background check, and, within an hour, I walked out with my new Weatherby," a rifle.

But Jan Jacobson, the bank employee who worked with Mr. Moore on his account, says that only happened because Mr. Moore's film company had worked for a month to stage the scene. "What happened at the bank was a prearranged thing," she says. The gun was brought from a gun dealer in another city, where it would normally have to be picked up. "Typically, you're looking at a week to 10 days waiting period," she says. Ms. Jacobson feels used: "He just portrayed us as backward hicks."

(And in an ironic twist, Moore actually concludes at the end of the film that basically "guns don't kill people, people kill people... but ignore that..." With the main force of the film being anti-American, that little bit at the end gets lost completely. )

Moore is dishonest and this ISN'T a documentary... period!

Valkenar · Post by **Valkenar** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 5:35 pm

They tried to shut Adrien Brody up by having the band play over him, but he wouldn't stop and told them to "cut it out" The fact that they didn't have some plan to cut Michael Moore off shows that whoever is at the helm of the show (president of th academy? Producers?) wanted him to speak It's not like it could have come as a surprise that he would express his views given the chance.

Michael Moore makes a propaganda film called Bowling for Colombine which is claimed to be a "documentary" (and I use the term very loosely) which is nothing more than an anti-gun, anti-freedom, anti-American film filled with half-truths, fabrications and out-right LIES.

I won't say there aren't half-truths, fabrications and lies, because I don't really know. I'd be interesting in hearing what else it contained that was not true.

But where did you get your information about the bank's actual policy?

Here's a few things I found.

http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cache:rO ... n&ie=UTF-8

http://www.gunowners.org/opmoore01.htm

http://jointeffects.com/cgi-bin/mt-comm ... try_id=290 (search
for "bank" in the page)

http://www.evolvingtype.com/irene/archives/000149.html

http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:-E ... n&ie=UTF-8

Seems there's some conflicting accounts here. But nothing like what you said about general-purpose coupons. From what I can tell the truth is somewhere between what you said and Moore said. You do have to go through a background check and so forth, and it's more difficult than it seems, but it is a guns-for-CDs promotion. Note that I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this promotion, just that it does exist.

Also, I don't think it's fair to say that it was "nothing more" than anti-gun, anti-freedom and anti-American. Yes, it was critical of certains aspects of America, but it was also complimentary of other aspects. Yes, it was critical of gun ownership in some respects. But it clearly does not make a blanket condemnation of gun ownership.

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 5:42 pm

Justin,

I've posted the links and the quotes giving numerous distortions, manipulations and lies. You won't find as many of those out there as the ones praising this crap simply because most of the media is 1001% for more gun control.

The promotion was also available to those that didn't want guns and just as those that wanted the gun were supposed to go to a store in another city, those who didn't want a gun could go to that store and get merchandise. Certainly it may have been (as you say) a "guns-for-CD" promo, but (as shown) there was so much more to it than that. The incident, like much of this film is staged and a lie.

Valkenar · Post by **Valkenar** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 6:19 pm

Panther wrote:Justin,

I've posted the links and the quotes giving numerous distortions, manipulations and lies. You won't find as many of those out there as the ones praising this crap simply because most of the media is 1001% for more gun control.

Thanks for posting that link, I was in the process of posting my message when you posted it. I read through the page and certainly I see their point that Moor maneuvers things to make his point in some shady ways. Yet I think in making their point they're exagerating.

For example, they go on quite a bit about the editting of Heston speech, but it seems to me that even if everything they said about it is true (which for the time being I believe) it's not that strange. I assumed it was obvious that the quotes weren't all from the same speech, and that they weren't even supposed to be, nor were they purported to be contiguous.

I can certainly see the point about the bank promotion segment being deceptive.

It seemed to me that most of what that page was rebutting weren't the most serious and significant parts of the film, and that their points, while valid, really weren't all that big of a deal.

To be honest, pretty much all explicitly political works (or supposedly objective ones, for that matter) I've seen, whether they're left-wing or right-wing, are fairly deceptive and manipulative. So what Moore does seems to be about par for the course, though I agree that it would be nice if people presented their material in a truly objective manner. Don't know if that's possible though.

One thing I don't quite see is what you thought was anti-freedom and anti-American in the movie, and even the article you linked to admits the movie isn't anti-gun towards the end. So deceptive and manipulative? Sure. More so than most similar things? Hard to say. Anti-gun, anti-freedom, anti-American? I'm not seeing it.

Leon DaDamaga · Post by **Leon DaDamaga** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 7:51 pm

Wow!! Great links!!

Leon DaDamaga · Post by **Leon DaDamaga** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:00 pm

On the busiest shopping down of the year, In the biggest mall in the world, two young men were hacked to death with machettes. Even though there was approximately 90,000 people shoulder to shoulder, nobody saw anything. If Canada is non-violent, then what the hell happened in West Edmonton Mall. Winnipeg has a terrible gang problem, they get attacked but generally don't die due to the quicker EMS response times of the small city. Yeah, non-violent

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 9:59 pm

Justin,

It is self-evident that you can't be convinced, so I won't attempt to try further. You are quick to condemn the "right wing" actions (or even the neutral actions of the libertarian minded) for any percieved digression against fairness, but in contrast, are just as quick (if not quicker) to jump to the defense of those who push the leftist agenda. That's your perogative... by all means carry on.

Sit down and shut up.

Sit down and shut up.

Bowling for Communism