Spirituality vs Religion

[KerryM]

Well "come across some more"- so you can decide if you are comfortable with "that way" and or at least I can get a better grasp on science stuff. I really have no clue and any subject will intrist me.

Talk more- tell me more- I understand how ya sound now- LOL- what else ya got? This is fun!

As captian Picard says- "ENGAGE" (points finger towards computer screen in swooping motion) LOL

K

[regkray]

Hi Kerry,

I don't have my own pc and this pc i'm on today is doing my head in.

I have to use the libraries or the colleges.

I will be offline for the bank holiday:)
Here in the UK.

My beliefs are pretty much my own. I have read so much stuff and meditated and experienced.

I am very tired at the moment so bare that in mind when reading this.

I suppose you could say I have New Age beliefs but I don't like that term.

I very rarely talk about my core beliefs and certainly not on a public forum.

But i don't have a religion. But i am spiritual.

I hope I'm ethical.
But it is subjective as to what is right or wrong.

I believe in Karma to a certain extent 'you get what you give'.

I believe there is a higher power we can tap into.

I believe we all know what is right and wrong.

I don't believe we are born equal which goes against what a lot of Religions state.

I believe like the Dalai Lama it is all about 'mind stuff'. there is nothing but what is on our minds. We are all one, or all connected.

There is no one to work on but yourself.

There is no one better than you or more spiritual than you.

Anyone who sets themselves up as higher than you spiritually is suspect,IMVHO.

I hope this doesn't offend you Kerry.


take Care


Steven



PS All the above may be untrue.

[KerryM]

Wow- That's very similar to my own. I would say many of the same things. I believe in many things as per my personal experiences. I do not participate in any "religions" as it's extremely difficult for me to get beyond- "practice what you preach" which many organized religion's leaders have a hard time accomplishing. As to the "docturine" of such religions- it doesn't make sense to me to follow "rules" meaning conditions upon which, if done, you will recieve something termed "un-conditional". In my belief right now, if it's un-conditional- it's un-conditional- and that's where I need to start, and show by example. That seems to be the under-lying point of many organizations anyway. I also admitt I have much to learn. I actively participate in learning - and in the mean time, treat other people the way I would want, I accept myself, and such accept others for where they are in life, and do not judge their choices based on that feeling. I will not push or mmanipulate others to see things as I do, excersizing my own right to free-will, thus respecting their own. I have stated before that every one (religion or not) has a piece of the truth. So based on that- I won't judge another's choices. I carefuly watch my own motivations/choices and true intent so as to at least be able to say "I've lived the best way I knew how, and respecting other people's right to do so as well." If my personal belief system is wrong - then I will accept such consequences, as with the knowledge I have thus attained- I "acted on" - consciously. This is all I can do.

These are my own personal beliefs- reason's for living as I do. In speaking to, sharing with other people, and in teaching my children - learn and decide for yourself, to live in a way that you "actively can believe in" and do the best you can. Make your own decisions on what feels right to you. Abide by the law - for the most part - the law states - don't hurt anybody in anyway- which includes yourself. Look, search, and learn - "live" your life - "choose" to do something - even if that means for you in your point of life - to not make a decision.

This is all just me - what I personally think - basing that decision on what I've experienced and studied. Best I can do- ya know?

Thanks for sharring what you think with me- and others whom read this- I have tried to reciprocate the gesture

K

[Le Haggard]

WOW! Incredible Thread! I'm impressed by the comments from all posters and have spent hours reading the whollllleee thing!

I'm new and don't want to inflame anyone. I hope you won't mind if I put in my own views on the original question plus....

Qualifier: I'm an "anti-realist" and basically "relativist" meaning that I don't believe we can absolutely know that something is or isn't true in the ultimate sense and that I believe individual perspectives change from culture to culture, person to person, time to time, place to place...you get the picture. I'm not saying that there isn't some kind of absolute Ultimate Truth or Reality out there. I'm just saying that I don't believe we can know for sure beyond any doubt. That's why I think all the various views are fantastic!

The original Question?

Spirituality to me is the belief in and cultivation of an individual "soul," "spirit," "essence," "I-ness," "Self," or whatever else you wish to call the non-physical aspect of Being. I say "Being" because some believe in spirits existing in animals, plants, mountains, rivers, what have you. It's what makes you more than, in Star Trek terms, sacks of mostly water. Its the cultivation of that "Being" that is the essence (for lack of a better word) of life rather than simply matter. I won't go so far as to say I believe it requires it be eternal since I know of some very strong spiritual positions that do not believe in the concept of an "eternal spirit."

Religion to me is the structured set of practices, traditions, rites, beliefs, social and/or cultural activities that individuals do in order to acknowledge, honor, and connect with their conception of the Divine, Holy, Ultimate, Transcendent, What-Ever-You-Want-To-Call-That-Which-Is-Beyond-Us. I also don't want to limit this to deities since I know of traditions in some religions, such as Daoism and Confucianism, where there are not necessarily any form of deity to worship. Religions can be organized under institutional structures or individual and less institutionally based. What is important in my view is that the structure of practice continues rather than that there is some "organization" to support it.

So, yes, I believe it is possible to be Spiritual without being Religious. Likewise, depending on your view of what aspect of "you" is relating to the Ultimate (however you name it), in my view, it may be possible to be religious without necessarily being spiritual.

I'll save my comments on the issues of "good," "evil," and "moral oughts" for another time.


Love the thread! Love this board! Can I stay?

Le'

[KerryM]

Hi Le- Welcome and of coarse you can stay! Incidently I'm from Wa state though in New Hampshire now- I've lived in the Shoreline district (it wasn't a city yet when I left) I lived in the Snoqualmie Valley i.e. Carnation, then I hit Soap Lake and Wenatchee. Woodinville was in there too. LOL. Where abouts are you?

This is a great thread, and I too have been very impressed with everyone willing to participate and explain some rather personal view points on this topic. It's really great to be able to talk to people from all over and see how their martial arts are expressed from within.

Thanks for joining on in! Hope to hear more!

Kerry-

[Le Haggard]

Thanks Kerry!

I'm in Ellensburg right now finishing a degree in Philosophy with a Studio Art minor. I lived in the Tri-Cities my entire life, growing up in Richland mainly, until I moved here with my kids in December 1998. As soon as I graduate this June, my kids and I are moving to Seattle around the U-District for me to attend graduate school in Philosophy at UW. I get a kick out of knowing that Bruce Lee was a Philosophy Major there when he came to the US in the 60s! (Probably the same building! ) I'm still looking for housing though. I'll be 35 this July so I'm starting my "adventures" late.

I've taken quite a bit of religious studies coursework, too. So, this thread is very much something I'm interested in!

Thanks again!

Le'

[KerryM]

Hi ya- I know of Ellensburg- there is a "gem" from there that is called "blue" something lol- it's pretty rare so if you find some take it with you- can't remember much else about it- I didn't like eastern Wa much- dirt dry blah- but you'll get tons of rain in Seattle much milder weather. I know the U district well. Many cool shops-

If you ever get the chance- Bruce and Brandon Lee are buried there in Seattle at the Lakeview Cementary- you can find the place on the web as well.

PS. when you hit the "dub" that's the nick name lol U-Dub LOL- Nice to meet ya!

K

[Le Haggard]

Hey Kerry!

Yeah, the "Ellensburg Blue Agate" is the stone you are talking about. You can buy them in local gem and stone shops but they are relatively hard to recognize "in the raw" if you aren't trained. I will be coming through E-burg often on my way to see family in Eastern Washington anyway so no big.

As for "U-Dub" yeah! I have family that has long been established in Seattle/Puget Sound Area and some are still there. Something like my Great Great Grandfather was a county commissioner in early Bremerton. I'm a native "Washingtonian." Seattle is just a big move from living on the Eastside where my parents grew up (though not born there) to the Westside where my grandfather's family is from. Its just familiar enough to be comfortable and yet unknown and foreign enough to be exotic to me. Strange situation.

But all that's something for a different thread....

I knew about Bruce Lee being burried there..I didn't about Brandon. Thanks for the tip!

Le'

[KerryM]

I wish I had purchased one of the agates while there.

So how would you "find" or touch on the spiritual side of kata. Anybody out there- When doing a kata- (being that it is a staple for Uechi-Ryu) and "spirit" is one of the three (i.e. mind/body/spirit- so it is in this context in which I ask) how or where do you as karateka express it- or excersize it?

K

(to get back a little more to the subject at hand!

[regkray]

Hi all



I started my MA practice doing Shotokan here in the UK.

There was no mention of Spirituality.

I found that through my own personal studies.

I joined a Zen group as that is the practice the Samurais engaged in.

If you think MA's are hard try Japanese Zen.

Incidentally 'Le' Buddhism also has no Deity, as I'm sure you know.

I'm sure you've read my opinion on God and Jesus and the reaction to it:)

I could tell from your first post you were a philosophy student.

I find the Japanese or Okinawan Katas with tension and obvious attacking moves are the antithisis of spirituality.

The nearest I got to a spiritual feeling doing a form is whilst doing Tai chi.

Obviously the smooth flowing relaxed moves lend themselves more to a meditative state.

I don't believe that is their purpose though.

Most people do not know what katas as their is so much myth and confusion and exageration relating to their history. So one can put ones own meaning on them.

But IMVHO if you want to attain Nibbana you don't practice fighting moves.

Sit down face a wall, or under a tree whatever go within.

I also do Yoga that is good IMVHO. I have heard some MA's claim that has MA's moves within it?????????


As the Dalai Lama says it's all Mind Stuff.



RK



Nothing is revealed

[KerryM]

Hi ya reg-

Were you referring to me being the philosophy student? Any and all things I've learned I've learned through experience and life. I haven't "studied" persay philosophy- though I enjoy thinking about, and discussing it.

I agree that most reactions to things, decisions we make, etc. are based from any particular or which-ever particular mind set we as individual people- have. What many people don't realize is that we can also choose which mind set to put our-selves in. I respect that choice- which is why I hold the concept of not judging people, so dearly. My mind-set is my own- the one I've chosen to actively persue. People whom "don't" realize and there-for "choose" a mind-set, or have one particular one given to them, without any kind of choice involved, I personally feel, have been done an in-justice. It's very "Dr. Phil"- if you know whom that is. He's a Scieciatrist very popular here in the U.S. LOL - there is probably where you get the "student" of- if you were referring to me. The children's book I wrote also deals with human behavior- but I'll say again, it's all information based from experience. The subject does intrist me greatly though - so though I haven't had any type of formal training, I spose you could really say I'm a "student" of it. Everyday- everything in our day/life - is a result of, and or from, "human behavior". To me- IMVHO ( ) understanding, and accepting this, and learning how best to "move within" this, holds a large key to finding peace and happiness. Here- right now. Understanding how people work, why they do what they do,say, etc. - if this is one of the biggest thing we all deal with - it just seems to make the most sense to become "adept" at doing so.

Understanding how people work in general can thus lead the way to understanding yourself. Why do I do what I do? What influences effect my own choices? What do I "want" to influence me? These things for me at any rate- lead me to understandings people/myself from the inside. For me- the best way to choose a "way to live" which ineracts well with other people, (haing studied how they work-) comes from finding security, happiness, etc. etc. from within me. "You can't help any-body else unless you first help yourself" concept. Or for some people the saying goes "take care of your own log in your eye before trying to take the splinter out of somebody-else's"

That's where I've started from- this is why I research and study and learn. This is why I look within to help the "out" LOL. For me- MA's have helped me accomplish this, by focusing on my physical body- how to protect it, and those I love. But that isn't where it stops- it (MA'S) have also helped me see that- being healthy and able on the outside isn't enough- to be "able" to do this- you need to at least have the proper inside parts to work with- or at least know they are there in the first place. Which is why I believe mind, body AND spirit, are quoted as parts of the whole. How each person works on their own "inside parts" is their choice. Which goes back to the above....

This is just how I think- the process I've acquired thus far. Thanks for letting me share it. It's really a deep subject but it's fun to "look in the dusty rooms" (as my Sensei says) to see what's lurking ya know?

K-

Thanks for sharring your experiences and thoughts with me too reg!

[regkray]

Hi all,

Kerry; I was actually refering to Le H, who is a Philosophy student.

But hey it got you to say a lot on the subject you like so much, which is good.

Yes there are academic students and students of life.
I aim to be both.

My main hobby is studying.
I obviously study similar things to you Kerry.

Yes MA's can have many ramifications or not depending on the type of person doing them.

I once asked on this forum what personality types study MA's and if there are any similarities?
It got no response.

My experience in MA's lead me to the initial hypothesis that most MA's are loners. Discuss, if you want.

RK

[KerryM]

Hi Reg-

I wasn't sure if you were referring to me- but yeah I liked the question anyway! LOL-

I do have some thoughts on the subject, or rather experiences that I've seen happen through our dojo's, but I hesitate a little- to mention to much here on the forum, for fear of talking about any given "type" and offending that person who considers themselves to be that type- as is reading this. See? LOL I'm not dodging the idea or question, for I'd be happy to answer privately. So check your PM's!



K

[Le Haggard]

Hey again...

I was actually refering to Le H, who is a Philosophy student.

Yes there are academic students and students of life.
I aim to be both.

Thanks for the gracious comments RK. Yes I'm a philosophy student and have been fortunate enough to be admitted to graduate school to further pursue this interest. I am afraid I would sound like this regardless of if I was a student or not though. You might have noticed, it is an intrinsic part of who I am and I would likely be doing this anyway. That's why I'm doing it professionally/academically. The academic training, in my case, has helped to improve the thought process and clarify my presentations more than anything else.

Regardless, my P.O.V. is that the best philosophies come from life. For that reason, I deal a lot with society, politics, multiculturalism, religion, race/ethnic theory, gender theory, ethics and values, etc. Those are discussions that humans AS humans are all qualified to discuss from their own experience. Everyone is an expert at living in their own society and culture, being their own gender and ethnicity. Some of the best comments are opened up by non-experts.

I have had a giggle or two at professional conferences. After I asked a question about democratic theory that resulted in the professional with a PhD (a professor at that) who was presenting entirely changing his position. Because I, a lowly undergraduate, asked the right question, numerous experts (who hadn’t noticed before) subsequently revised their entire opinions. Imagine the shock of the presenter when I informed him *privately* AFTER the event that I was a student and, even worse, an undergraduate!

Stop Babbling Le’ and get to the point. The Point is that students of life are probably the best source of ideas. Being both is what gets stuff done.

“I once asked on this forum what personality types study MA's and if there are any similarities?
It got no response.

My experience in MA's lead me to the initial hypothesis that most MA's are loners. Discuss, if you want. “

I think MAs come from all different personality types. I’ve known highly popular people that are MAs and definite loners as well. I think it’s a personality *trait* that is a similarity. That I would say is “determination.” I’m not certain if there are other kinds or not. I do know that, for whatever motivation, people that start and continue to practice martial arts have a determination to continue and conquer. Survival instinct? Or is it competition? Maybe its just “will to power.”

Le'

:::::Frequent Conversation of mine: "Yeah Le', you just want to try to save the world." "Yup. Someone has to." :::::

[KerryM]

Hey Le' what you described as "how you are" DOES sound a lot like me. Like I said I'm not in school but personal research had led me to the same directions!

I'd love to see a couple topic discussion come from you- some of those giggle comments you spoke of- or theories you have! I do love the subject!


K