Would you train with........

[Gene DeMambro]

Hi Bill,

Glad you enjoyed your recent trip.

It is a fact that gay men are - statistically speaking - FAR more promiscuous than are heterosexuals (of either gender) or lesbians.

Not to be a jerk, but this fact is supported by....

Gene

[Bill Glasheen]

Gene

You aren't being a jerk, and I don't have a good peer-reviewed source right at my hands. But I'll work on it...

Off the top of my head... The main reason HIV spread so rapidly first in the gay community was partially a function of "typical" behavior (numbers of partners) in gay vs. non-gay or lesbian members of society.

I've read articles before that talk about partner behavior of gays (men vs. men) vs. heterosexuals vs. lesbians. It's the testosterone thing. Left unchecked, testosterone leads to "as much as you can possibly get" behavior. Testosterone is the main driver of libido in men and - yes - in women too. With men and men, you have...a LOT of testosterone. There are good sociobiological reasons for promiscuity tendencies in men vs. women. It's explained in the book The Selfish Gene.

Along those lines...the major pharmacologic treatment for loss of libido in men - and even in women - is testosterone.

Yes, the trip to Germany was fabulous.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Gene

I tried a quick look in PubMed, but couldn't find the exact article I was thinking of.

But it did make me find an exception to my rule of thumb. Prostitution is obviously a behavior that leads to multiple sexual partners, and there are more women than men in that business. But "the oldest profession" is less an issue of passion, and more one of economics.

- Bill

[Chris McCracken]

Well, it's my first post to this forum, and it is on this thread. Is that an omen?

I know this point has passed a little, but I can honestly say I have no issue training (even grappling) with gay men. It wasn't always the case and, without going into intricate details, it's not a terribly difficult "phobia" to get around.

As for the homosexual promiscuity issue, here are a few references to help Bill's point. For the record, I haven't thoroughly checked the references and I got them from an organisation with known prejudices. However, they actually seem legitimate.

1. Promiscuity is widespread among homosexual men. Less so among lesbians. (Schmidt, p.106,108; F.R.I.p report "Medical Consequences..."; Satinover, p.54,55)

2. For the vast majority of homosexual men and a signficant number of homosexual women, sexual behaviour is obsessive, psychopathological and destructive to the body. (Schmidt, Ch.6; Satinover, Ch.3)

3. In the homosexual community as a whole, evidence of life-long faithful relationships is almost non-existent. One study showed 1%. (Schmidt, p.105-108; F.R.I. report "Same Sex Marriage")

There are a bunch more here, but they seem to be from books and articles, rather than reports or studies.

[Le Haggard]

LeAnn, I think you hit on some very important ideas here. But then you missed a thing or two that only someone who has "been there" would appreciate.

Hey Bill!

Which "been there" are you talking about and what would you say I missed?

Not to be too brutally personal but....If you are refering to "been there" as in been assaulted by someone with sexual connotations you didn't want? Yup. Been there as in rolling around grappling to beat you up kind of assault? Yup. "Been there" wrestling kind of practice in awkward positions? Yup. Willingly competed in a martial arts competition with sexual overtones? Yep though it wasn't an offical martial arts style...long story. "Been there" as in being a man getting hit on and grappling with a gay guy kind? Nope.. I have the wrong equipment for that.

Maybe there is a difference here between men's "been there" and a woman's. It's an interesting question to me... Could you pretty please elaborate for me? I'm an enthusiastic student without a ton of official MA experience and I honestly want to understand. Hey, it may be of use to me in the future!


Le'

[Bill Glasheen]

LeAnn

I think you have an excellent understanding of the situation.

First, I want everyone to understand my PERSONAL belief. I don't have a problem grappling with a gay male. I DO have a problem grappling with a male in a manner that has sexual overtones. That's sorta like a female grappling with a male in a manner that has sexual overtones, but not exactly. And in general, sex is ALWAYS "out there," sort of like what Harry said in the movie When Harry Met Sally. It tends to get in the way now and then. C'est l'amour.

As for the rest of the stuff I posted, well I'm just playing devil's advocate to some extent. I'm discussing views some people have that I may not share. For example, some people hate flying on planes, but won't think twice about driving a car in rush hour traffic. While I have no problem flying planes and I understand the statistics, I still appreciate why some people have a fear of flying. Basically what I'm trying to do is get things "on the table" for discussion so people can react to those feelings (often hidden) and discuss them. I want the thought police out of the room so we can constructively deal with known phobias.

All your "been theres" are pretty close to the situation Bone was referring to. Pretty close.

"Been there" as in being a man getting hit on and grappling with a gay guy kind? Nope.. I have the wrong equipment for that.

This is sort of it, LeAnn, but it's complex.

Male on male "sex" can be different than heterosexual sex, heterosexual harassment, heterosexual rape, and lesbian sex.

Gay sex (flirting, touching, courting) amongst consenting adults is close to heterosexual and lesbian sex, but not exactly. Different societies, cultures, religions, and individuals have different attitudes about each. Religious beliefs are what they are. Believe it or not, many men may not think twice about lesbian sex (may actually be turned on by it), but would consider gay sex as "wrong" or "gross." Why do people feel that? I don't know. But I'll give you an example of such attitudes shown in popular entertainment. Ever seen the TV show Friends? In one episode, Joey was often turned on by the idea of Rachel kissing another woman. He teased her about it a lot, and had that "look of lust" in his eyes. But he freaked out when he heard Rachel had a dream where Chandler and Joey were having a menage a trois with her (Joey and Chandler grin) but spent some time fondling each other (Joey and Chandler look at each other in horror). Don't ask me to explain it; it's just one of those things that are what they are. Shows like Friends often reflect such "norms."

Unwanted male on male overtures is similar to unwanted male on female overtures, but it's different. Some of this has to do with social "norms," and people's individual sensitivities to what others' think. Good or bad, right or wrong, there are a fair number of people (for various reasons) that disapprove of gay sex. It is what it is.

There is a "violence" element to unwanted gay sexual overtures that is similar to heterosexual sexual violence, but different. Let's take dogs as an example. A male will mount a bitch for procreation. But the same male will mount another male (make him his bitch, so to speak) as an expression of dominance. Ultimately it increases his status in the dog pecking order, which means he gets first dibs on food and "female bitches." Very similar behavior is displayed in prisons between males who would otherwise behave as heterosexuals in society. But put a bunch of violent, "heterosexual" males in a confined enviroment and there is "gay" sexual behavior that - like dogs - is an expression of dominance and one's position in the pecking order. Studies have been done on such behavior before, and the analogies to dog behavior have been made.

If you are interested, you might want to look at a website of a bunch of former convicts (from Canada) that once tried to flame our site. The website is sort of a grappler's website, and sort of a collection of neer-do-wells that grapple and do "inappropriate things" because they are bored and can't get past some behavior learned while in prison. After reading some of the posts, you'll probably want to go take a bath or something. Pretty nasty stuff. I'll pass on the URL if you are interested, but I won't post it here. They don't need the publicity.

And then there is the youth element. Human males reach their testosterone peak at about age 17, far before many have reached "psychological maturity." Many males around the age of 17 are somewhat "confused" about their sexual identity (or the whole concept of sex in general). It takes time for all the nature/nurture forces to settle and for an individual to fully develop their adult views and behaviors. If you read reports written by Kinsey or Masters and Johnson (based on their sex surveys), you will find that quite a significant percentage of otherwise heterosexual males engage in one or more "homosexual acts" during adolescence. It is what it is. That in turn happens right in the same societal mix as various attitudes about gay sex, predatory gay sexual behavior (basically statutory rape), genuine gay feelings towards maturing but confused "heterosexual" males (sort of confusing, no?), etc., etc.

In a word, it's complex. Women can sort of understand what males go through, but not exactly. And men can sort of understand what women go through, but not exactly. Living the role gives you a better perspective.

Not all humans are created alike. Not all heterosexuals are created alike. And not all gays are created alike. But individuals having traumatic or perhaps merely "unpleasant" events happen to them through life are likely to generalize inappropriately or otherwise have "issues" that they may need to work through. This is the baggage people bring into the dojo, and for some it is THE reason they come to the dojo. We instructors who understand the broader function of martial arts might stumble across such situations through teaching. It's useful to appreciate them all, and know when external intervention may be appropriate to help such individuals on their journey. Enough said.

- Bill

[Gene DeMambro]

Hi Bill,

Not to segue or hijack the thread, but what do you think ought to be the correct response when a dojo owner finds out that a student has an infestation of say lice or scabies?

Gene

[Le Haggard]

Hi Bill,

Great response and I'm still thinking it through. I do have one question I would like clarification on though.

Are you saying that male/male assault is entirely about domination, humiliation, etc and that male/female assault is not?

or

Are you saying that it is the cultural taboos that make male/male assault repugnant while male/female assault is some how accepted as, for lack of a more precise term, tolerable regardless of whether the assault is about domination/humiliation or sex?

It would help me understand where you are coming from on those points since I may disagree or agree depending...

Thanks!
LeAnn

[Bill Glasheen]

Gene

These things happen, and I actually have experience with it at a large dojo. This is what I recommend.

1) Tell the student to see a physician ASAP. Tell them they may not work out until the physician has given them clearance.

2) If you think the problem may already have spread (which is likely if more than one student has an infestation), then announce to the class that there was a student (students) with a dermatologic issue that required medical attention. Explain the symptoms. Tell them that if they have the symptoms, then they should see a physician at once. Do not allow anyone to have contact work (kumite, kotekitae, partner stretching) until the class after a student has heard the announcement. This way you can give everyone the privacy they deserve while protecting the group.

3) If a number of students have been infected, then there may be a residual souce in the gym that might cause further infestation. Then you should consider having the dojo (gym) fumigated by professionals. This takes a day or two of gym (dojo) down time.

4) In general if you personally have an infestation, then you need to treat yourself with an external neurotoxin (like a lindane-based shampoo). Ideally you should do so under the guidance of a physician, although such medicines are available over the counter. You will need to wash all clothing and bedsheets in hot water. These instructions are generally available in the medication instructions.

Hope that helps.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

LeAnn

Sorry, I missed your post in there...

Are you saying that male/male assault is entirely about domination, humiliation, etc and that male/female assault is not?

No.

I think domination and humiliation exist in both. I think both are essentially acts of violence.

With women, there is also the issues of procreation (albeit rarely a significant one in the big picture), and the interaction (roles if you will) of the sexes. But forced sex is essentially violence, no matter what the other factors involved.

With men, there is the element of the male pecking order. Males view other males differently than females in the whole violence scheme of things. Regardless of species, most animals have a different set of interactions by gender when it comes to violence. Other males are competition for females. Females are the prize to heterosexuals male animals. Role are driven by programmed behavior that is designed to preserve DNA. It all may seem confusing when it comes to the male/male rape. Sometimes it has to due with pecking order and dominance that leads (eventually) to procreation opportunities. And sometimes... it just is and has no particular explanation that I can think of. Not all things that happen in life have "a greater purpose."

Make sense?

Are you saying that it is the cultural taboos that make male/male assault repugnant...

Cultural "norms" do add an additional (or perhaps unique) element of repugnance for the male.

while male/female assault is some how accepted as, for lack of a more precise term, tolerable

I would NEVER call it tolerable. The experience is unique to the female. With the female, a "taboo" of male/female sex (consensual or not) is NOT there. But the violence/domination element is the same, and is ugly. Additionally, the female has an additional (or perhaps unique) element of repugnance related to the fact that she may carry the progeny of her attacker if sperm is released in the vagina.

Each situation is unique, no? They are similarly repugnant, but the feelings of the victims are different.

- Bill

[Le Haggard]

Bill–

Thanks for the response. I mostly agree with your assessment. However, perhaps because I am a woman, I have a bit of a different take on assaults against women and the male/male vs. male/female differences. And, as usual, I have a question or two I want to raise.

I would like to qualify these comments as refering to heterosexual victims rather than gay or lesbian victims. Those are perhaps another point of view, both similar in some ways and different in others.

I think domination and humiliation exist in both. I think both are essentially acts of violence.

Agree. Very much so.

With women, there is also the issues of procreation (albeit rarely a significant one in the big picture), and the interaction (roles if you will) of the sexes. But forced sex is essentially violence, no matter what the other factors involved.

With men, there is the element of the male pecking order. Males view other males differently than females in the whole violence scheme of things. Regardless of species, most animals have a different set of interactions by gender when it comes to violence. Other males are competition for females. Females are the prize to heterosexuals male animals. Role are driven by programmed behavior that is designed to preserve DNA. It all may seem confusing when it comes to the male/male rape. Sometimes it has to due with pecking order and dominance that leads (eventually) to procreation opportunities. And sometimes... it just is and has no particular explanation that I can think of. Not all things that happen in life have "a greater purpose."

Make sense?

I sort of agree, but not entirely. Yes, I agree that a minute part of assaults against women may have something to do with "procreation." And I agree that gender roles play a significant part. However, I disagree that male/female assaults are not related to "pecking order" issues. This is where the gender roles are incorporated, in my opinion. The difference is that, rather than individual dominance issues of one man gaining superiority over another in hierarchical structures, the "pecking order" is between the genders themselves. This still connects with the procreation DNA urge in that men have to subjugate women at some level in order to procreate. The situation isn't so much one of competition for partners in that instance, as in male/male encounters, but for "keeping her in her place." Rape has long been used as a tool against women to degrade their social status. Additionally, rape has been used to attack the masculinity a woman's significant other, as in the Serbo-Croatian War. Women sometimes are assaulted because they are strong and the men involved feel their masculinity is threatened. An example is the professional woman who has a better salary or higher IQ than her partner and is abused because he is threatened by her success and intellect. I think this is much more common than the procreation aspect, but then I'm biased.

Now, here is another question that seems to be an issue in our contemporary society. With the narrowing gap and overlap in gender roles, is the number of assaults similar to the above example increasing? Are professional women being targeted by men resentful of women's success in what the men feel are rightfully male roles?

Cultural "norms" do add an additional (or perhaps unique) element of repugnance for the male.

It sounds like women's suffering has been discounted by culture in comparison. I agree with what you think is the cultural and perhaps masculine view of the difference. I'm not certain I can agree from a woman's perspective.

I would NEVER call it tolerable. The experience is unique to the female. With the female, a "taboo" of male/female sex (consensual or not) is NOT there. But the violence/domination element is the same, and is ugly. Additionally, the female has an additional (or perhaps unique) element of repugnance related to the fact that she may carry the progeny of her attacker if sperm is released in the vagina.

Each situation is unique, no? They are similarly repugnant, but the feelings of the victims are different.

I would add additional points to consider from the woman's perspective. While the "taboo" against male/female sex does not exist, that fact adds to a woman's trauma. Heterosexual men are not likely to repeat the sexual acts that were forced on them during a male/male rape. Women, however, are expected to, at some point in the future, resume normal sexual relations with other men. Every previous male/female sexual encounter a woman has had and every one in the future becomes connected to the rape. Simple illustration. A woman forced to perform oral sex on a man is likely to be expected to do so at some later date with a future partner. Any memory of previous consensual oral sex is now overlaid by the memory of the same act during the rape. A heterosexual man forced to perform oral sex on another man during male/male rape is highly unlikely to ever be expected to perform oral sex on another man as part of a normal heterosexual relationship. The same applies to penetration forms of rape for both genders. Men may suffer from the "taboo" of having certain sexual acts forced on them, but women are expected to relive the same acts over and over again as part of their normal sexual lives.

Finally, unlike men, a woman is more likely to be blamed for her own sexual assault. A heterosexual woman may be told that "she asked for it" since the sexual acts are the same as what she would normally desire. A heterosexual man is very unlikely to be told that he asked for sexual acts from another man since it not what he would desire as part of his normal sex life.

Now, getting back to the grappling point.

It would seem to me that women should have significant concerns about grappling with male opponents of any sexual orientation. Would you say that men, because of the dominance issues you mentioned, should have the same concerns about grappling with other males of any orientation?

Thank you for the discussion. This is definitely something for me to consider...

LeAnn

[KerryM]

Didn't catch the whole of this piece, so please forgive me if I touch on something that was already mentioned.

I noticed this topic for a couple of reasons. 1) I too was seeing it as a set up but for completely different reasons... I won't speak of them, but they are valid. 2) It occured to me that both men and women, straight or gay, will have problems with "anyone" making any un wanted advances. It doesn't matter all the intricate why's and where' fores' to me- what matters is the level of disrespect to "continue" to "hit on" whomever- when they've made it clear they don't want you too.

Being hit on is a part of life. It will happen whether in the dojo or not. By in the dojo, I mean say changing rooms or whatnot- I personally believe that a frriendly open yet "contrtolled" atmosphere is needed to respect everyones reasons for being there. Some people just have perky personalities, and others really become focused and don't want any talk. Rigid structure is what they need. To respect all, a little of everything should be allowed in moderation. Any un-wanted/desirable behavior should be quit immidiatly or you're gone. But enjoying class is a true must also.

One other point I thought I'd sneak in- regarding sexual overtones in the dojo... Rules should also apply to husband and wife teams. I co-own our dojo's and try extremely hard not to bring private jokes n what not into the class- it could make someone uncomfortable. It's strickly training. (though difficult cause we both tease each other relentlessly whether playing around, or seeing who can catch an unexpected Don Kumitea.)

Rules concerning everyone- are necesary to dojo's.

I also would hope that no one tries to bring up any subject that might intentionally provoak certian people, using it as a tool of some kind....- as TDS was suggesting. I am sorry if the intent was misunderstood too, but there is reason to be conerned "in general". (no accusations here)

But I think people are also strong enough and intelligent enough in here to recognise any potential "flare up topics" for themselves and just not read the posts. This way- in respect for people that have real legitimate questions- they can ask- and not be worried about being critisized for having a question.

My opinions- I don't think it's about men/women/w/women/men blah blah- it's about how people react to other people, and what's acceptable inside the dojo walls- in each dojo. It's sexuality- each person understands, accepts, and deals with it differently no materr "what" they are. OR how they got there. People need to be considerate and respectful- my personal bottom line.

my 2 cents of coarse! LOL-
K

[Bill Glasheen]

Kerry

Very nice post. Thank you.

LeAnn

It seems that the more you attempt to point out the perspective from a woman's point of view, the more you prove my point. As a male, I cannot fully appreciate everything you say that a woman experiences. I know enough to know what I don't know, if that makes sense.

Men may suffer from the "taboo" of having certain sexual acts forced on them, but women are expected to relive the same acts over and over again as part of their normal sexual lives.

Yes!

unlike men, a woman is more likely to be blamed for her own sexual assault.

Yes!

It sounds like women's suffering has been discounted by culture in comparison.

Absolutely not; it's not a contest. It's different!

I agree with what you think is the cultural and perhaps masculine view of the difference. I'm not certain I can agree from a woman's perspective.

And that articulates my point exactly. I wouldn't expect you to relate 100%. That doesn't bother me at all if it doesn't bother you.

Now, here is another question that seems to be an issue in our contemporary society. With the narrowing gap and overlap in gender roles, is the number of assaults similar to the above example increasing? Are professional women being targeted by men resentful of women's success in what the men feel are rightfully male roles?

I don't know, but this is a very good point. This very well may be the case.

It would seem to me that women should have significant concerns about grappling with male opponents of any sexual orientation. Would you say that men, because of the dominance issues you mentioned, should have the same concerns about grappling with other males of any orientation?

I think it depends on the male. Many men are uncomfortable with being touched by other men. Watch two men hug. They can't do it without "manly" slaps on the back hard enough to turn the skin red. We wouldn't want people to talk, now, would we?

Eventually most men get over the whole thing and just grapple in much the same way that adolescents get over taking showers together. Ninety-nine percent of the time it's a non-issue.

- Bill

[RACastanet]

My input comes from my ongoing training with the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program. There are no sexual overtones at all. No locker room jokes. This is really serious business, combat training. This is a world of alpha males, and in this program it is better described as alpha-alpha.

I do find it to be somewhat uncomfortable grappling with male Marines. Lots of dirt, mud, sweat, grabbing, poking etc. It must be my nature. No problems for me in stand up action, but the grappling 'guard' position just feels odd.

There are also female Marines in the program. As a gentleman this poses a whole new problem for me. However, these Marines are fit and well trained. One I have met is a black belt instructor trainer and is tall, lean and very nice looking (Bill, she is about my daughter's size). However, they play for keeps like the males so no holds are barred. Again, tough for me to deal with because of my upbringing. There are places I just cannot bring myself to grab onto and twist or whatever.

I suspect that in a life threatening situation against a male the adrenalin dump would over ride any preconceived notions. However, I think a female would have a momentary advantage while my brain tried to sort things out.

Any thoughts on this?

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

Good points, Rich.

First, remember that the military is still - for lack of a better term - exclusive with regard to sexual orientation. "Don't ask, don't tell" is as liberal as you'll get. Being openly gay (which is how the topic started, I believe) is a ticket for a dishonorable discharge. Detection of sexual overtones would require an incredibly sensitive "gaydar."

Alpha vs. alpha... Yes, I agree. These (wo)men are a special lot - even to a fault. That's good; I'm glad we have such folks protecting our freedoms.

they play for keeps like the males so no holds are barred. Again, tough for me to deal with because of my upbringing. There are places I just cannot bring myself to grab onto and twist or whatever.

I suspect that in a life threatening situation against a male the adrenalin dump would over ride any preconceived notions. However, I think a female would have a momentary advantage while my brain tried to sort things out.

Good point! Now here we have an opportunity to take lemons and make lemonade. Steven King, my Goju/aikido instructor and former green beret would work a lot on multiple partner randori. Occasionally when demonstrating how to get out of a bad situation, he'd reach down and quite deliberately grab someone's genitals. Now here's an opportunity to take those phobias and use them against someone. What in one instance could cause a fatal mental lapse in oneself could just as easily be used to cause the same in an opponent. Ever watch Dennis Rodman mess with someone on the court? Interesting example of psychological warfare.

All's fair...

- Bill