Spirituality vs Religion

Le Haggard · Post by **Le Haggard** » Mon May 12, 2003 11:50 pm

Hello NM,

2Green wrote:Just a quick comment...our forums get a little heated by times, but we generally keep a civil tone. Any of us should be able to stick to non-offensive language and still be able to make our point: ESPECIALLY if our discussion is on the more intellectual nature of martial arts (which by the way I feel is a properly philosophical subject.)

Just passing this on to Le H. since she's a newcomer and I wouldn't want her to feel unwelcome or unduly out of place among us.
sometimes it takes a while to get the "feel" of a person's style by reading their posts over time.

Thank you for the encouragement. I am very glad that many people here seem to consider martial arts as more than physical, but also incorporating the spiritual and philosophical as well. It's been a pleasant surprise to see it mostly encouraged over the last few days. I must admit that I have had better discussions on these forums about a wide range of multicultural issues in socio-political philosophy than many of my previous classes.

I don't mind heated debate at all. I wouldn't be able to function in academia if I did. Generally, I try not to take offense over any disagreement either. I guess I'm just not use to the personal "critiques" rather than remaining on issues.

I certainly have been told before that others thought philosophy unimportant or irrelevant, which leaves debate open for why someone thinks so and why I don't. But I've never had something as personal and important to me as my life's work referred to in obscene terms before.

As with everything and every group dynamic, I suppose the forum takes getting accustomed to while I figure out which "noise" to filter out. I seriously doubt I will ever become accustomed to certain "styles" however.

On that note, I would enjoy hearing your view, as well as others, of spirituality and philosophy in relation to martial arts. So...

?

Thanks again,

Le'

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue May 13, 2003 12:08 am

regkray wrote:If a tree falls over in the forest and their is no one their to hear it does it make a sound?

I've asked several times for the answer, it is a basic philosophical Q I was sure someone out there would know it?

RK

Well this is like the age old question, "If a bear craps in the woods, and no one is their to witness it, smell it, walk in it, is it extinct? Well according to the spelling police it does not matter as long as the question was spelled correctly and the sentence structure is sound.

This of course is incorrect! The language police have it wrong. What is important is that we notice that every time the language cop berates Scott (on another thread) and Le on this thread for spelling errors his posts include spelling and or grammatical errors.

This behavior might be viewed as pecksniffery in GB.

However us folks on this side of the water lacking RK's superior language skills would probably just think Hmmm, he is the walking living text book definition of hypocrisy.

These sanctimonious attacks just fly right over my little noodle cause I'm not as skilled as the language police. Kind of a blessing cause when some really superior educated guy decides to berate me about a post I can play stupid and forget to press F7 to spell check it.

The spelling errors drive them nuts. Then they educate us committing more spelling faux pas! It really is most amusing.

Why this individual feels privledged to attack forum members over language skills evades me., The thing he must come to realize is these personal attacks add nothing to the dissussion and are beneath him.

KerryM · Post by **KerryM** » Tue May 13, 2003 12:34 am

Reg- are you not playing nice again? Shame shame- (wagging finger at reg) Hafta be nice or people won't talk to you- now go sit in the corner. (This is teasing you again)

I always thought that a tree still made a sound if it fell but no one was there to "hear" it. It still made sound waves. Is that the right answer from a philosophy point of view?

How come I didn't see no-body offer an answer to my question? How fast is the speed of dark?

My take? I think it's the same.

Kerry

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Tue May 13, 2003 12:42 am

I think this 9-page thread is a record!
Anyway, posted my summary on spirituality earlier on this very thread.
But I think that Martial Arts is the embodiment of a civilized acceptance of the reality of violence. Rather than mob mentality or burn-Frankenstein hysteria, MA analyzes and personalizes physical combat while eschewing the battle if possible.
That's why I believe that any MA worth its salt MUST teach self defense for YOU. Yes, sports are fine, tournaments are exciting, but if you are not getting some measurable self defense skills from your training, then fencing or ballet are just as good. Really.

At its very best, Martial Arts impart great power along with wise judgement, compassion and restraint. This is for your own personal protection and the protection of others if you are able. A lofty goal.

And concerning weapons...don't think that just carrying one will make you safer. Go to Google and look up "Tueller drill" and you will be amazed.
Also, carrying a weapon puts all your eggs in that basket, externalizing your expectations of defense. Suppose you forget it, lose it, drop it, have it taken away. What's left? Only what's inside.

So MA is the ultimate self-responsibility, if you will.
I just happen to think Uechi Ryu is a pretty realistic and well-balanced, low-flash means of getting there.
I also have found that Karate is full of unexpected intellectual/conceptual/philosophical insights...Zen is a good example...which satify my need to learn something deeper than "just fighting".
Aahhh...deep breath...!

NM

Le Haggard · Post by **Le Haggard** » Tue May 13, 2003 1:25 am

LAIRD:

Yes Sir. Point well taken. I will do my best to refrain from responding in kind or highlighting hypocrisy in the future...even though the imp in me is so tempted. :::fluttering lashes and trying to look innocent:::

And Umm..

F7 spell checks this thing? Who knew!

Kerry: I think you are right. If dark is the absence of light, then when light passes it leaves dark in its wake at the same speed with which light departs. So, I think you are on to something. On the sound issue, I'm still not sure if the waves/vibrations are actually "sound" or if "sound" is what our senses make out of the waves/vibrations. That is sound theory I think...I just know to get out of the tree's way if it falls toward me.

NM: 9 pages is a record? I am starting to think I talk too much to be in martial arts. :::hand over my mouth:::: I like your take on this. More??? Please???

LeAnn

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Tue May 13, 2003 2:39 am

LeAnn...
I'm just hoping that your martial path leads to the promised reality of peace of mind, real self defense and empowerment.
Martial arts were always intended to be the "great equalizer"., how the little guy could stand up to the big guy. There are many great examples of how this turned out to be true, but too many sellers sold the 'results-overnight' dream and too many buyers got beat up as a result.
In the end you really DO get out what you put in. There's no magic- bullet system delivering awesome power for no investment. But there is lots of extra reward in martial arts besides physical accomplishment.That's what I was alluding to above.
I guess what I'm trying to convey (based on your previous statements) is please make sure that you know, going in, what any given training path might offer in physical terms. I think all other benefits will rest upon that.
I'll ruminate some more, but must go.
NM

KerryM · Post by **KerryM** » Tue May 13, 2003 6:28 pm

Smiling

LeAnn- that's an awesome way to put it- and the question makes sense too!

2green- I'm absolutely positive that if LeAnn stays put, all the way to black, it she will discover what you mentioned. It has done so for me without question, and become a very important daily part of my life. And sticking with it- really does create a sense of accomplishment, and being able to defend yourself? "priceless"

K-

regkray · Post by **regkray** » Wed May 14, 2003 2:43 pm

Hi

The tree in the wods Q is like a Zen Koan.

There maybe many answers to it.

But one is there is no sound with out someone to hear it.

Sound is the vibration of the tree falling encountering an ear to hear it?

Am I making sense here.

Another answer to the Q is it is impossible to know.

No one will ever know if it makes a sound when no one is there, cos no one is there.

What do we KNOW, this was the first question I was asked when I went in my first Philosophy class.

So I'll ask it of you What do you KNOW?

Take Care

RK

KerryM · Post by **KerryM** » Wed May 14, 2003 7:28 pm

Personaly I feel I know nothing. Nothing except death will occur. Everything else I search for, learn from, and constantly changes. My intent would be to stay aware of this fact.

K-

regkray · Post by **regkray** » Thu May 15, 2003 9:54 am

Hi,

You see Kerry in a Philosophy class you would be told you do not 'Know' you are going to die.

you might think, believe, assume, you are going to die but you do not 'Know' it.

RK

KerryM · Post by **KerryM** » Thu May 15, 2003 8:11 pm

So from a philosophic point of view how can one not know that?

K

Le Haggard · Post by **Le Haggard** » Fri May 16, 2003 3:56 am

Hey Kerry,

Rather than getting into the whole debate about whether a person can or can't know *anything* at all, I'll take the simpler philosophical answer (there are many to choose from though).

You can't know you are going to die, because it hasn't happened yet. You don't know the future and though you may predict from what you think you do know from past experience, its only a prediction and not knowledge. Knowledge, in that sense, is truth or fact. You haven't died so its not truth or factual to say you will die.

Does that help?

Le'

regkray · Post by **regkray** » Fri May 16, 2003 2:22 pm

Le h

You took the words right out of my mouth

RK

KerryM · Post by **KerryM** » Fri May 16, 2003 10:27 pm

I see the philosophical answer but I disagree.

We are not immortal- a "transformation" of some kind will occur. I'd lable it as common sense- reality whatever...

But I certainly understand the point you are making. I have through personal experience learned that truth isn't proven by anything- it just is. Truth can though be effected by the person "viewing" it persay- by their perception of it... Which is why I understand what you are saying LOL. You can play with words etc all day long, the fact remains- some day you'll die- life doesn't last forever- just cause it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't.

But don't take my opinion as argumentative- because I surely understand what you are saying.. Really- I'm not disagreeing with you persay- but the concept that just because it hasn't happened yet- it might not- not with death anyway. There is no escaping death.

But to everything else- yeah! Right with ya!

coarse- ya never know- in twenty some odd years there may be some new drug that will keep us alive longer, and prevent death- so I guess I can't say I know death will happen "to me"

because yes- it hasn't yet. LOL.. but it has to lots of others so.... I see your point LOL

laughing- this is a good one! WOOHOO made me think!

love that! check all senerios before making a decision! that'd be me! LOL

thanks!
K

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Fri May 16, 2003 11:28 pm

ummmalready answered your question reg

the only thing I know is I know nothing ......

Like Descartes I think therefore I am ? , I prefer I feel therefore i am , is doubt actually a thought or a feeling ?

Quote

So MA is the ultimate self-responsibility

** 2Green Your cut right to the chase sometimes

, this to me is the real warriors mindset , self-responsibilty first

but theres another part of me that recognises that other great philosophical position ...

the only thing I`m sure off is death and taxes