Full contact kumite (kyokushin style)

[Karateka]

Anyone ever do kumite full contact? Do you find it benifical?

[Bill Glasheen]

I have boxed. This is full contact kumite.

I highly recommend boxing over other venues of full contact fighting for several reasons.

First, it's been around a long time, and has a "favored nation" legal status in this country. Consequently if someone gets hurt, you're not as likely to get Dewey, Chetham, and Howe after you. But whatever you do, make sure you don't serve hot coffee at ringside.

Second, safety is about as good as it's going to get here.

Third, you aren't likely to get "carreer ending" injuries like torn ACLs in boxing - even if you are KO-ed.

Fourth, the rules are pretty clear here. Everyone seems to accept that we can do some things, and don't want to do other things that might make it difficult to fight another day.

Yes, I find it useful to try to hurt someone, and give them an equal vote in the matter. Lots of honesty there. Little whining from the peanut gallery about this or that "wuss" or "reality" factor. You get an opportunity to show your stuff while someone is attempting to hurt you, or attempt to do the same when hurt or stunned.

No, boxing isn't fighting. But it's one more tool in the toolkit.

- Bill

[Panther]

I've never studied Kyokushinkai, but I've worked out with some practitioners. Gary Khoury-Sensei and I had a conversation comparing our experiences with Kyokushinkai practitioners and their kumite practices. We both immediately noticed that they wore a heavy torso padding to absorb some (but definitely not al) of the impact of the body blows. We both also noticed the lack of headgear... and the fact that (at least with those I worked out with) the head was not considered a legal kumite target. Those guys could HIT, but they had a tendency to leave their heads wiiiiiide open, an obvious by-product of their kumite rules.

I respect the abilities of Kyokushinkai practitioners, so please don't take my next statements as anything other than my personal opinion and not meant to be disrespectful to hardworking and hard-training martial artists. IMNSHO, anybody can learn to hit, it's the not-getting-hit part that takes time to assimilate. (Therefore, for me, I much prefer staying far away from those places that put me in danger of getting hit at all! )

Now, if your desire is to learn if you can take a punch, Glasheen-Sensei has great advice. Shihan once told me that "you'll have doubts until that first punch lands and then you'll realize that it wasn't so bad. At that point you're in the game because you know you can take it and all you have to do is dish it out. So make sure you dish it out better than the other guy and you'll be OK." It took me quite awhile to fully appreciate that. Then I got into a tiff with a few unsavory characters. I held my own, but took a couple of shots. Then I understood and "dished it out better than the other guy(s)" on that day. That's not a recommended method. Too much uncertainty. Glasheen-Sensei has better advice for learning if you can take a hit.

[gmattson]

SARASOTA, Fla. - A woman lay brain dead Tuesday after being pummeled in a Toughman amateur boxing bout, and police opened an investigation into the fight.

"We are trying to determine the criminality of it," police spokesman Jay Frank said.

Stacy Young, 30, suffered swelling and bleeding in the brain during Saturday night's bout. She was declared brain dead Monday night at Bayfront Medical Center but was kept on life support Tuesday until out-of-state family members could arrive, the hospital said. Earlier Tuesday, hospital representatives erroneously reported that she had died.

Chuck Young said his wife, a mother of two, decided on the spur of the moment to compete after learning that the only woman who had signed up needed an opponent.

"It's supposed to be fun," said Chuck Young, who also got in the ring but who lasted only 29 seconds in his bout. "They tell us nobody's going to get hurt. The worst that could happen was to get a broken nose."

There were no cash prizes for the bouts in the publicly owned Robarts Arena, at the Sarasota County fairgrounds. In Florida, prize money for boxing is legal only in tightly regulated professional bouts.

At 240 pounds, Young outweighed her opponent by about 60 pounds. But in the first 30 seconds of the bout, family members knew it was an uneven match, said her sister Jodie Meyers.

Young nearly lasted all three rounds before falling the final time, Meyers said, adding that doctors told her any one of the many blows could have damaged Young's brain.

The Toughman contest was started by businessman and boxing promoter Art Dore in Michigan in 1979. Men and women pay a $50 entry fee and compete for cash or trophies.

At least three competitors have died in the past nine months, and some say the total number of deaths in the circuit's 24-year history is as high as nine. Several states have banned Toughman contests.

Dore has said he will continue staging the fights.

Joelle English, head of public relations for AdoreAble Promotions, the event's parent company, said participants sign waivers releasing promoters from liability, and their heart rate and blood pressure are checked by a doctor.

[Karateka]

I've notice most of the top MMA teams include kyokushin karate and have a sensei. Brazilian Top Team is one that uses kyokushin for stand up training.

As for the head being wide open...I don't know about that. Most of the kyokushin karateka I've trained with also punched to the head and were very skilled in both body and head shots.

Karateka

[Panther]

As for the head being wide open...I don't know about that. Most of the kyokushin karateka I've trained with also punched to the head and were very skilled in both body and head shots.

If you can hit, you can hit to any target. The head is just another target and I didn't mean to imply in any way that Kyokushinkai practitioners couldn't hit to the head. I was speaking only from my limited experience working out with Kyokushinkai practitioners. Perhaps they were just using the "no head shots" rule for that session, but that was the rule that day. And, as one would expect when an area is considered "off limits" as a target, folks didn't bother covering and blocking those non-target areas. The observation is based on that limited experience, but the analogy can be made to other martial arts kumite in so far as usually the groin (hitting below the belt) is an "off limits" target. In that regard, many martial artists never learn to truly block those low shots that can happen on the street where no such rule exists. My comments regarding Kyokushinkai-ka kumite was not meant in any way to be disrespectful of that art. Oyama is a legend. All styles evolve. And, as previously stated, they can HIT! Believe me, I respect anyone who can wipe the floor with my posterior, which means I show lots of respect to lots of folks.

[Bill Glasheen]

George

That story about the 30-year-old wife and mother gone brain dead has been getting a lot of press here.

A few comments...

First, I never said boxing had no risk. If there were no skin in the game, then it wouldn't be the challenge that it is.

Second...

Chuck Young said his wife, a mother of two, decided on the spur of the moment to compete after learning that the only woman who had signed up needed an opponent.

....

At 240 pounds, Young outweighed her opponent by about 60 pounds

Face it - in her physical condition, she had no business getting in a boxing ring. Should we blame the organizer of a swimming contest for letting someone compete if they didn't know how to swim and they drowned in the pool after jumping in? Maybe. But at some point, yes - we as a society need to allow Darwin's laws to apply.

As Forrest Gump says, "Stupid is as stupid does."

There's a guy I know at my gym who's a trainer by profession (Phatbusters...) that made it all the way to the nationals in one of these contests. Like any athletic contest, the ones who are good are going to eat up the ones who aren't. And this guy got a broken nose. News flash - don't make boxing your profession if you have a big nose!!

Still...it's safer on your body than American football. In any case, organized football, AAU boxing, and professional boxing have nothing to worry about here. They have protected status litigation wise.

Anyone interested in doing boxing should check with the AAU. They aren't so careless as to let you in the ring without making sure you know what you are doing.

- Bill

[Mary Chant]

Was her decision to enter irresponsible? IMO yes
Does the responsibility for this decision lie with her? IMO yes
Is it fair or even necessary to call her a pig? Please. Does a brain dead woman whose tragic error in judgement is leading to the end of her life, and who is leaving a husband and two children behind, need to be referred to as an "...pig?" One may correctly argue that she would not be aware of such a comment, and that the chances of her family seeing such a reference are slim, but just because they won't be harmed does not mean the comment wasn't foul.

Mary Chant

[Bill Glasheen]

Mary

Point well taken; post modifed. I guess we all have our prejudices. Funny, a little voice in my head was telling me the same a little bit ago. So...are you the one that torments me within when I am insensitive?

Sigh... I hope that's the last we hear of this tragedy. Alas it probably smells a little too much like money to someone.

- Bill

[Mary Chant]

Bill,

Thank you very much for your reply. Your originally worded post seemed uncharacteristic and I was taken aback. In fact, I reread it a few times to make sure I had not misunderstood. I sincerely respect and appreciate your reconsideration of that statement all the more.

I of course, have no prejudices, shortcomings or character flaws, which leaves me with a lot of spare time to review other people's ( just kidding).

I too hope that this tragedy can be put to rest but also fear the smell of money will make it linger.

Thank you, again.

Mary

[Chris McCracken]

The style I studied as a kid used the Kyokushin sparring philosophy and we competed with and against the Kyokushin and Seido guys regularly. In fact, I had to do the Kyokushin standard 40 man Kumite for my shodan grading.

Definitely no padded torsos, here. Also, the head was an allowable target, but not for the hands. Only kicks at that height. Points scored for solid strikes, knockdowns or sweeps. I assume the rules haven't changed too much since then.

I found it beneficial at the time, but now I question the value, aside from sport. From that perspective, I agree with Bill, that boxing is probably a more sound way of building contact skills.

Full contact sparring could be a useful tool for learning about impact, but I feel boxing would probably teach more about learning to be more competent with a more limited arsenal.