Mr. Miller's posts had some useul information, the rest was mostly "I think this" or "I agree with that", etc.
Is there no clear, direct information or breakdown on types of grabs/tackles, lunges, etc?
I mean, how many ways can a person take you down?
Has no-one ever codified the various modes of attack and some counters?
Even in the Red Book there are some specific ways to rush in and grab/throw someone, although they may be outmoded now (?)...or maybe not: at least they were specifically addressed.
Let me think:
An attacker might:
1: Lunge for your legs to pull them out from under you.
2: Grab your lapels and spin you against a wall.
3: Shoot his hands straight into your chest and send you stumbling back.
4: Run up behind and piggyback you.
5: Try to sweep you with a low kick...
6: etc...
A defender might.
etc...
Get the idea?
If no one can offer any experience-based info, perhaps this whole grappling thing is a big non-issue, so why is it such a big deal?
I'm asking fairly straight and basic questions, but no one seems to have thought out any answers. I'm only seeking basic information, and if all this groundfighting and grappling is really going on "out there", there must be a wealth of expertise!
Have I stumbled upon the Black Hole of Martial Arts?!
(No, I don't think so.)
NM
Ground Fighting
Moderator: Available
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Stryke
2green i dont really get what your asking ? , you want pure statistics , I`d be surprised if they exist , how many fights are finished with a right cross left upper cut combination ? , no such statistics , as for personal experience Ive seen a guy picked up and slammed , Ive seen a tackle , and thats about it for takedowns on the street , Ive taken a guy to the ground but only buy his dropping to one knee and mine coming up at him shortly after , another incident I swept a guy to make my point , thats about all my experience on the subject . as for your list I can give some Idea of counters but they wont work all the time hence youve got to know what to do since your down there , I`m no expert there either .....
Quote
1: Lunge for your legs to pull them out from under you.
2: Grab your lapels and spin you against a wall.
3: Shoot his hands straight into your chest and send you stumbling back.
4: Run up behind and piggyback you.
5: Try to sweep you with a low kick...
6: etc...
my solutions
1 Sprawl
2 many options apart from just hit him gouge eyes etc etc , attack elbows ...
3 no problem you got range to attack him shouldnt have gotte this far
4 Id drop and pivot and throw him off
5 Shouldnt have gotten here if your going take him with you
but these solutions etc are just options for trying to prevent , the solutions I favour are when these dont work , and thats where groundwork comes in , nothing works all the time , I wouldnt beleive this stuff works most of the time , it`s all about contingencys , a little grappling knowledge is a huge advantage on the ground .
The Bubishi is the closest thing to a codified written text to these types of scenarios , the other codified list would be your kata , but there just defending kicks and punches right ? , well i dont know about Uechi but I see my Shotokan kata as primarily grappling techniques , groundfighting different again but the submissins etc are primarily the same , is just some positional/defensive variances .
anyway no help probably but its a good question .
Quote
1: Lunge for your legs to pull them out from under you.
2: Grab your lapels and spin you against a wall.
3: Shoot his hands straight into your chest and send you stumbling back.
4: Run up behind and piggyback you.
5: Try to sweep you with a low kick...
6: etc...
my solutions
1 Sprawl
2 many options apart from just hit him gouge eyes etc etc , attack elbows ...
3 no problem you got range to attack him shouldnt have gotte this far
4 Id drop and pivot and throw him off
5 Shouldnt have gotten here if your going take him with you
but these solutions etc are just options for trying to prevent , the solutions I favour are when these dont work , and thats where groundwork comes in , nothing works all the time , I wouldnt beleive this stuff works most of the time , it`s all about contingencys , a little grappling knowledge is a huge advantage on the ground .
The Bubishi is the closest thing to a codified written text to these types of scenarios , the other codified list would be your kata , but there just defending kicks and punches right ? , well i dont know about Uechi but I see my Shotokan kata as primarily grappling techniques , groundfighting different again but the submissins etc are primarily the same , is just some positional/defensive variances .
anyway no help probably but its a good question .
2green-
It's not a black hole, it's just an area where experience is limited (and the more experience you have the less comfortable you feel about generalizing). Valid statistics take a lot of samples and rigorous methods and definitions.
In my experience, one person goes to the ground in most serious fights. Just one. If both go to the ground it's usually a drunken brawl or incompetence on the part of both fighters.
If I am fighting for control, I follow them down to my knees. There are lots of very effective things you can do with your knees while maintaining balance, mobility and alertness.
Separate question: How people can be taken down-
-Momentum ploys, such as uke otoshi
-Leverage throws, such as irimi nage or the head and arm
-Tackles, where you combine your bodies into a single Center of Gravity and throw it down.
-True throws, where you lift his CoG and spin it around yours
-Joint locks up, like kote gaeshi extended for a throw
-Joint locks down like kote gaeshi pressed to uke's feet
-Static sweeps pin all the weight on one leg and then remove it, like o soto gari.
-Moving sweeps remove the leg just before uke transfers his weight to it
-Stacking: almost all takedowns in real life are compounds of the types listed here
Specific defenses to specific takedowns, for me, is an inefficient way to think. [Recognize-categorize-remember the 'proper' counter- execute] is too time consuming of a mental loop.
Also too many things work. Stryke's response to a shoot is to sprawl. Mine is to (euphimism alert) 'severely compromise the integrity of his spinal articulation'... if you are coordinated enough to catch a football hand off, you can break his neck. Thinking about it, the motions are very similar. Hmmm.
If you can, 2green, try to break your question down into smaller chunks and we'll have another try at it.
It's not a black hole, it's just an area where experience is limited (and the more experience you have the less comfortable you feel about generalizing). Valid statistics take a lot of samples and rigorous methods and definitions.
In my experience, one person goes to the ground in most serious fights. Just one. If both go to the ground it's usually a drunken brawl or incompetence on the part of both fighters.
If I am fighting for control, I follow them down to my knees. There are lots of very effective things you can do with your knees while maintaining balance, mobility and alertness.
Separate question: How people can be taken down-
-Momentum ploys, such as uke otoshi
-Leverage throws, such as irimi nage or the head and arm
-Tackles, where you combine your bodies into a single Center of Gravity and throw it down.
-True throws, where you lift his CoG and spin it around yours
-Joint locks up, like kote gaeshi extended for a throw
-Joint locks down like kote gaeshi pressed to uke's feet
-Static sweeps pin all the weight on one leg and then remove it, like o soto gari.
-Moving sweeps remove the leg just before uke transfers his weight to it
-Stacking: almost all takedowns in real life are compounds of the types listed here
Specific defenses to specific takedowns, for me, is an inefficient way to think. [Recognize-categorize-remember the 'proper' counter- execute] is too time consuming of a mental loop.
Also too many things work. Stryke's response to a shoot is to sprawl. Mine is to (euphimism alert) 'severely compromise the integrity of his spinal articulation'... if you are coordinated enough to catch a football hand off, you can break his neck. Thinking about it, the motions are very similar. Hmmm.
If you can, 2green, try to break your question down into smaller chunks and we'll have another try at it.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Thanks, Rory. Your input (and Joe's stolen input 
). Is appreciated.
As I look at what I wrote above, I'm feeling like I wasn't too far off. Not bad for an amateur.
A few thoughts...
I find this absolutely fascinating. From Bill Kipp (President of the International Adrenal Stress Response Association)...
In any case, I see the following tendencies:
1) People see what they do. A fight is what it is - often a messy affair. If you are a (name your style) expert, you see "a fight" using the glasses you wear when practicing your own Whatsamatta Ryu.
2) As I look at this early posting from Joe, and then some detailed stuff from Rory, it just dawned on me that we have a problem with the definition of "going to the ground." When many people think about "going to the ground," they think of the kinds of consensual duels you find in the wrestling ring or in the NHB cage on the padded floors. You know...the protracted 1-on-1 battles that end with a pin and/or a joint lock and/or a "choke" move. But as I read some of Rory's stuff, I realize that a lot of what he's talking about is stuff I do all the time (from my aikido training - shodan level), but wouldn't be MY definition of going to the ground. Is sweeping or dumping someone and finishing them off or restraining them while in a crouched position "going to the ground?" Gosh...then I must be a goddamned groundfighting expert!
I often tell people who ask about Uechiryu that the style is a "transitional" style. It really isn't grappling, but then it really isn't purely a striking system. This is why folks like me (and a host of others) found it so easy to integrate aikido with the Uechi, and others (Jack Summers, Joe, Mike Murphy) found it easy to integrate some version of JJ with Uechi. It's as if the second art finishes the sentence that the Uechi fight started. It's as if it was meant to be that way all along. In my estimation, 50% of the reason for opening the hands in the Uechi style is to grab and control.
But do I consider myself an "expert" groundfighter? Hmm... I guess it depends on your definition. Certainly I'm no wrestler or JJ expert.
- Bill
). Is appreciated.As I look at what I wrote above, I'm feeling like I wasn't too far off. Not bad for an amateur.
A few thoughts...
I find this absolutely fascinating. From Bill Kipp (President of the International Adrenal Stress Response Association)...
And then from Joe Pomfret (Uechika/BJJ stylist and NHB competitor)...Master Ricardo Murgel, former coach of the Brazil National Jiu Jitsu team and now a world renown combat Jiu Jitsu Instructor, and Rorian Gracie himself both emphatically state that they will avoid going to the ground at all costs in a street situation.
Interesting! And from Joe Pomfret the ex-Marine...While bouncing (security) in clubs I had a great opportunity to see what worked...and what didn't. Strong punches (sanchin), a sense of balance (sanchin-sparring), and a strong ground game (brazilian jiu-jitsu).
Hmm... Wonder how this jives with today's MCMAP. What's your impression, Rich?In Today's Marine corps, the majority of techniques deal with bringing the opponent to the ground and finishing on the ground. There is a reason for this.
In any case, I see the following tendencies:
1) People see what they do. A fight is what it is - often a messy affair. If you are a (name your style) expert, you see "a fight" using the glasses you wear when practicing your own Whatsamatta Ryu.
2) As I look at this early posting from Joe, and then some detailed stuff from Rory, it just dawned on me that we have a problem with the definition of "going to the ground." When many people think about "going to the ground," they think of the kinds of consensual duels you find in the wrestling ring or in the NHB cage on the padded floors. You know...the protracted 1-on-1 battles that end with a pin and/or a joint lock and/or a "choke" move. But as I read some of Rory's stuff, I realize that a lot of what he's talking about is stuff I do all the time (from my aikido training - shodan level), but wouldn't be MY definition of going to the ground. Is sweeping or dumping someone and finishing them off or restraining them while in a crouched position "going to the ground?" Gosh...then I must be a goddamned groundfighting expert!
I often tell people who ask about Uechiryu that the style is a "transitional" style. It really isn't grappling, but then it really isn't purely a striking system. This is why folks like me (and a host of others) found it so easy to integrate aikido with the Uechi, and others (Jack Summers, Joe, Mike Murphy) found it easy to integrate some version of JJ with Uechi. It's as if the second art finishes the sentence that the Uechi fight started. It's as if it was meant to be that way all along. In my estimation, 50% of the reason for opening the hands in the Uechi style is to grab and control.
But do I consider myself an "expert" groundfighter? Hmm... I guess it depends on your definition. Certainly I'm no wrestler or JJ expert.
- Bill
In light of the replies, I offer one initial scenario:
You saunter up to the bar to greet a young female.
A few minutes pass...you hear a roar behind you.
You turn; a man about 180 lb is charging you, hands out as per a mid-section tackle: he's intending to grab you and take you down.
Your Uechi-response is:...?
NM
You saunter up to the bar to greet a young female.
A few minutes pass...you hear a roar behind you.
You turn; a man about 180 lb is charging you, hands out as per a mid-section tackle: he's intending to grab you and take you down.
Your Uechi-response is:...?
NM
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Pomfret, Joe
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 9:17 pm
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Interesting... Context is everything, no? The sprawl doesn't work because the damned bar is inches away from the back of your feet. Sometimes you have to conduct a fight in an area the size of a phone booth. The Uechi seisan bunkai defense works really well here. Beer mug is a nice touch...
Depending on the situation (momentum of the attacker) and "the impulse", I might add a slight variation here. If their direction is towards the bar, I would first do a slight shift (tai sabaki), and "help" the person's head into the bar.
Then I would proceed with the rest of the bunkai. Always use geography when it is to your advantage.
I've been thinking about a defense metioned by Rory here, that might apply. In response to the sprawl defense to a shoot, he stated...
(NOTE: This is why I HATE the word "uke" in the Uechi vocabulary. Uke my a*ss; many of these movements are attacks!)
There, I feel better now. In any case, this is what Rory was describing (more or less). Lately I've come up with a bunkai for the sanseiryu sequence (double roundhouse boshiken, gedan barai, shoken sukuiage uke, lift) that is a response to a "persistent" shooter.
And Joe, of course, is thinking me nuts for seeing this in Uechi kata. It's not Uechi, it's a BJJ move, right Joe? (teasing) That's OK. Raffi laughs at me too when I see Uechi in his FMA.
- Bill
Depending on the situation (momentum of the attacker) and "the impulse", I might add a slight variation here. If their direction is towards the bar, I would first do a slight shift (tai sabaki), and "help" the person's head into the bar.
Then I would proceed with the rest of the bunkai. Always use geography when it is to your advantage.I've been thinking about a defense metioned by Rory here, that might apply. In response to the sprawl defense to a shoot, he stated...
Believe it or not, I learned this from one of my students. Ian was sparring with someone from the judo club back when he was a med student at UVa. When the guy went for his knees, he instinctively did the shoken sukuiage uke from sanseiryu kata. He got the guy in a very nasty neck lock. The subsequent "lift" would have been ugly.too many things work. Stryke's response to a shoot is to sprawl. Mine is to (euphimism alert) 'severely compromise the integrity of his spinal articulation'... if you are coordinated enough to catch a football hand off, you can break his neck. Thinking about it, the motions are very similar. Hmmm.
(NOTE: This is why I HATE the word "uke" in the Uechi vocabulary. Uke my a*ss; many of these movements are attacks!)
There, I feel better now. In any case, this is what Rory was describing (more or less). Lately I've come up with a bunkai for the sanseiryu sequence (double roundhouse boshiken, gedan barai, shoken sukuiage uke, lift) that is a response to a "persistent" shooter.
And Joe, of course, is thinking me nuts for seeing this in Uechi kata. It's not Uechi, it's a BJJ move, right Joe? (teasing) That's OK. Raffi laughs at me too when I see Uechi in his FMA.
- Bill
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Pomfret, Joe
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 9:17 pm
Of course you're not crazy Bill. But...do you keep your idea to yourself as a theory, or do you typically share it and practice it, over and over, againsts an un-cooperative partner in order to gain confidence in your idea? I so, AWESOME!!!
My sensei, Bob Bethoney, used to say that Uechi Ryu is like the old "Ragu" spaghetti sauce commercial. They used to say, "it's in there!"
If you look hard enough at Uechi Ryu, you can see anything, I suppose, but...do you keep your idea to yourself as a theory, or do you typically share it and practice it, over and over, againsts an un-cooperative partner in order to gain confidence in your idea? I so, AWESOME!!!
My sensei, Bob Bethoney, used to say that Uechi Ryu is like the old "Ragu" spaghetti sauce commercial. They used to say, "it's in there!"
If you look hard enough at Uechi Ryu, you can see anything, I suppose, but...do you keep your idea to yourself as a theory, or do you typically share it and practice it, over and over, againsts an un-cooperative partner in order to gain confidence in your idea? I so, AWESOME!!!
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Excellent points, Joe. And BTW, it's always a pleasure having you on board.
Vicki can attest to the fact that I like springing applications on partner that don't know what they are supposed to do (like last night's class with Amir and my own version of a bunkai from seisan kata). Those are the best kinds of partners - the ones that don't know what you are trying to do and how they are supposed to roll over from your superior chi.
Do I "put myself in harm's way" (expression from Darren Laur). Not like you, Joe. When it comes to the art of the bouncer, I like my view in the cheap seats just fine.
But there are controlled ways for us aging fighters to play with the bulls.
Sharing the knowledge... Excellent point. We are having a bit of a discussion about that right now in the dojo. I'm preparing a student for a nidan test in New England. Stay tuned...
- Bill
Vicki can attest to the fact that I like springing applications on partner that don't know what they are supposed to do (like last night's class with Amir and my own version of a bunkai from seisan kata). Those are the best kinds of partners - the ones that don't know what you are trying to do and how they are supposed to roll over from your superior chi.
Do I "put myself in harm's way" (expression from Darren Laur). Not like you, Joe. When it comes to the art of the bouncer, I like my view in the cheap seats just fine.
But there are controlled ways for us aging fighters to play with the bulls.Sharing the knowledge... Excellent point. We are having a bit of a discussion about that right now in the dojo. I'm preparing a student for a nidan test in New England. Stay tuned...
- Bill
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Stryke
context is everything yes 
, hope we get some more examples of what if ....
Quote
too many things work. Stryke's response to a shoot is to sprawl. Mine is to (euphimism alert) 'severely compromise the integrity of his spinal articulation'... if you are coordinated enough to catch a football hand off, you can break his neck. Thinking about it, the motions are very similar. Hmmm.
* exactly , but quite often we dont want to go straight to breaking the neck also , my reaction i hope would to spin through the attack*lots of turns in most styles of karate* * , much like a rugby player can in a tackle , and strike him into the bar , but in reality if you have not enough warning to turn around youll be lucky to get out of this one , Id hope to rely on my conditioning and by that I mean a strong body , Id be more concerned if my back was going to hit the bar ... stomach chest , not so much of a problem if hes tackling I`d think your better of than a strike to the back , little chance of things broken really, once weve stopped its just a guy hanging onto my back , now its a different scenario .
Ive seen a wing chung demo where the turn with a shoot go 180 into a low horse stance striking all the time , i see the gedan barai turns in shotokan kata in a similar manner in some places , but thats more for a front shoot , but similar principles in my book
, hope we get some more examples of what if ....Quote
too many things work. Stryke's response to a shoot is to sprawl. Mine is to (euphimism alert) 'severely compromise the integrity of his spinal articulation'... if you are coordinated enough to catch a football hand off, you can break his neck. Thinking about it, the motions are very similar. Hmmm.
* exactly , but quite often we dont want to go straight to breaking the neck also , my reaction i hope would to spin through the attack*lots of turns in most styles of karate*
* , much like a rugby player can in a tackle , and strike him into the bar , but in reality if you have not enough warning to turn around youll be lucky to get out of this one , Id hope to rely on my conditioning and by that I mean a strong body , Id be more concerned if my back was going to hit the bar ... stomach chest , not so much of a problem if hes tackling I`d think your better of than a strike to the back , little chance of things broken really, once weve stopped its just a guy hanging onto my back , now its a different scenario . Ive seen a wing chung demo where the turn with a shoot go 180 into a low horse stance striking all the time , i see the gedan barai turns in shotokan kata in a similar manner in some places , but thats more for a front shoot , but similar principles in my book
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RACastanet
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA
Bill said: "Hmm... Wonder how this jives with today's MCMAP. What's your impression, Rich?"
Had this discussion yesterday morning at O'dark 30 with the MCMAP asst. Director. They (Marines) emphatically do not want to go to the ground. Yes, they train to put the opponent on the ground and finish it with the appropriate technique. Also, there is a lot of JJ groundwork training being taught and practiced so Marines know what to do if they end up on the ground. Some of the techniques are absolutely nasty (Joe: have you heard of the face rip? I suspect you do it but not under that name.)
The Marine's force continuum contains air power, artillery, snipers, automatic weapons, knives and bayonets (which have been used frequently in Iraq) and lastly hand to hand (also getting some use in Iraq). Going to the ground is really the last resort. Stand off techniques such as calling in helicopter gunships are almost always the best choice.
Rich
Had this discussion yesterday morning at O'dark 30 with the MCMAP asst. Director. They (Marines) emphatically do not want to go to the ground. Yes, they train to put the opponent on the ground and finish it with the appropriate technique. Also, there is a lot of JJ groundwork training being taught and practiced so Marines know what to do if they end up on the ground. Some of the techniques are absolutely nasty (Joe: have you heard of the face rip? I suspect you do it but not under that name.)
The Marine's force continuum contains air power, artillery, snipers, automatic weapons, knives and bayonets (which have been used frequently in Iraq) and lastly hand to hand (also getting some use in Iraq). Going to the ground is really the last resort. Stand off techniques such as calling in helicopter gunships are almost always the best choice.
Rich
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
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Pomfret, Joe
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 9:17 pm
Hey Rich, what's up buddy. When I was a sniper in the Marines and we had "dismounted enemies in the open," I understand our first course of action was not to attack with an armlock from the ground.
From 1991 to 1995, much of our close combat training involved ground work. What (ABOUT) percentage of Marine close quarters combat involves ground work these days? As a rough estimate, I'm sure you can round it to the closest tenth.
What ever percentage you come up with, I sure wish readers of this thread would concentrate that much of the whole of their training on their ground-work! If it's good enough for the US Marines, it should be good enough for us.
From 1991 to 1995, much of our close combat training involved ground work. What (ABOUT) percentage of Marine close quarters combat involves ground work these days? As a rough estimate, I'm sure you can round it to the closest tenth.
What ever percentage you come up with, I sure wish readers of this thread would concentrate that much of the whole of their training on their ground-work! If it's good enough for the US Marines, it should be good enough for us.
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Gene DeMambro
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RACastanet
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- Location: Richmond, VA
Hello Joe. I'll give you some info on how the MCMAP is being implemented.
At this point, I am trainng at the brown/black belt level with some of the senior Marines in the program so I get to see not only what is 'official' MCMAP but also what is being experimented with and considered for future incorporation. Ground fighting is growing in importance. So is knife fighting. Right now, advanced knife fighting is taking the forefront.
As a percentage of time spent on instruction, aside from rolls, breakfalls and a leg sweep, the first level, Tan Belt, includes no ground fighting. So, knock the enemy down and stomp, stick, bludgeon, choke or shoot them. This is the level all Marines must attain by October of this year. It includes 27.5 hours of instruction at boot camp or The Basic School for officers. If not in this group of new Marines, all are encouraged to get into one of the many sessions offered in either a block form or weekly sessions.
Ground fighting officially shows up at Gray Belt. This training requires 44 hours and is offered as a block or in weekly sesions. Out of the 44 hours, ground fighting includes 1.5 hours to learn the mount and guard, and how to apply an arm bar from either. Of the 44 hours, 14 is to work on sustainment of the prior material. The way the test works, you must do 5 tan techniques randomly selected by the instructor flawlessly or you cannot even begin to test for the Gray Belt. At this point, we started doing about 15 minutes of ground sparring at each session. We knew a few chokes and tried to work them. As we did three minute round robin matches, including trainers and instructors, at least one match was pretty embarrassing. The I/Ts would play with the 'meat puppet' for a while and then go for a submission when they felt like it.
Green Belt requires 53 hours of training. There is no block training for this unless you go for the three week Instructor course. Most do it as I have with a once or twice a week session. Prior belt sustainment is 23 hours of the 53. Ground fighting in now 1.5 hours plus 2.5 hours of free sparring. at this point we know numerous chokes plus counters to the guard and mount. Things are much more intense at this level.
Brown Belt requires 63 hours of logged training and Black Belt requires 70 hours. Brown Ground fighting has 3.5 hours of instruction and 2 hours of free sparring. Black includes 4.5 hours of ground fighting training plus 2 hours of free sparring. Of the 63 hours for Brown, I need 27 hours of prior belt sustainment. To speed things along, I now have a few reservists in the area interested in training with me so I can cover that without travelling up to Quantico. The reservists are fresh from summer duty with their Tan belts so I have willing 'meat puppets' to practice with.
The group I am in now is pretty senior so we train both Black and Brown in each session. As a result I am learning about face rips and triangle chokes from the guard and other nasty stuff.
Filipino style knife and stick fighting is being experimented with and we do a lot of that. More of that may be integrated into the program at some point. The new SNCOIC is a Filipino Kick Boxing champ at some level so I expect to see more shins, knees and elbows involved as time goes on.
The program does take on the personality of the Director (CO) and the SNCOIC. The first director was a Judo practicioner and the current Director is a Japanese JJ practicioner so they favored the ground work. The original SNCOIC had an OKI style background, including Uechi, and he brought that plus kyusho into the mix.
Anyway, to answer your initial question, about 25% of what we do at the advanced level is grappling, throwing, choking and integrating these skills together.
I have been encouraged to attain the Black Belt. We shall see. The combat conditioning required by me to survive training with this bunch is actually tougher on me than the actual MCMAP training. I will be taking this training one week at a time as long as I can as it is quite an honor to be allowed to train with our Marines.
By the way, I have watched some of the senior instructors grapple and the spit and sweat flies. A few of them participate in NHB bouts on weekends and are perticularly tough Marines... like you Joe.
Regards, Rich
At this point, I am trainng at the brown/black belt level with some of the senior Marines in the program so I get to see not only what is 'official' MCMAP but also what is being experimented with and considered for future incorporation. Ground fighting is growing in importance. So is knife fighting. Right now, advanced knife fighting is taking the forefront.
As a percentage of time spent on instruction, aside from rolls, breakfalls and a leg sweep, the first level, Tan Belt, includes no ground fighting. So, knock the enemy down and stomp, stick, bludgeon, choke or shoot them. This is the level all Marines must attain by October of this year. It includes 27.5 hours of instruction at boot camp or The Basic School for officers. If not in this group of new Marines, all are encouraged to get into one of the many sessions offered in either a block form or weekly sessions.
Ground fighting officially shows up at Gray Belt. This training requires 44 hours and is offered as a block or in weekly sesions. Out of the 44 hours, ground fighting includes 1.5 hours to learn the mount and guard, and how to apply an arm bar from either. Of the 44 hours, 14 is to work on sustainment of the prior material. The way the test works, you must do 5 tan techniques randomly selected by the instructor flawlessly or you cannot even begin to test for the Gray Belt. At this point, we started doing about 15 minutes of ground sparring at each session. We knew a few chokes and tried to work them. As we did three minute round robin matches, including trainers and instructors, at least one match was pretty embarrassing. The I/Ts would play with the 'meat puppet' for a while and then go for a submission when they felt like it.
Green Belt requires 53 hours of training. There is no block training for this unless you go for the three week Instructor course. Most do it as I have with a once or twice a week session. Prior belt sustainment is 23 hours of the 53. Ground fighting in now 1.5 hours plus 2.5 hours of free sparring. at this point we know numerous chokes plus counters to the guard and mount. Things are much more intense at this level.
Brown Belt requires 63 hours of logged training and Black Belt requires 70 hours. Brown Ground fighting has 3.5 hours of instruction and 2 hours of free sparring. Black includes 4.5 hours of ground fighting training plus 2 hours of free sparring. Of the 63 hours for Brown, I need 27 hours of prior belt sustainment. To speed things along, I now have a few reservists in the area interested in training with me so I can cover that without travelling up to Quantico. The reservists are fresh from summer duty with their Tan belts so I have willing 'meat puppets' to practice with.
The group I am in now is pretty senior so we train both Black and Brown in each session. As a result I am learning about face rips and triangle chokes from the guard and other nasty stuff.
Filipino style knife and stick fighting is being experimented with and we do a lot of that. More of that may be integrated into the program at some point. The new SNCOIC is a Filipino Kick Boxing champ at some level so I expect to see more shins, knees and elbows involved as time goes on.
The program does take on the personality of the Director (CO) and the SNCOIC. The first director was a Judo practicioner and the current Director is a Japanese JJ practicioner so they favored the ground work. The original SNCOIC had an OKI style background, including Uechi, and he brought that plus kyusho into the mix.
Anyway, to answer your initial question, about 25% of what we do at the advanced level is grappling, throwing, choking and integrating these skills together.
I have been encouraged to attain the Black Belt. We shall see. The combat conditioning required by me to survive training with this bunch is actually tougher on me than the actual MCMAP training. I will be taking this training one week at a time as long as I can as it is quite an honor to be allowed to train with our Marines.
By the way, I have watched some of the senior instructors grapple and the spit and sweat flies. A few of them participate in NHB bouts on weekends and are perticularly tough Marines... like you Joe.
Regards, Rich
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
