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 Post subject: Congruency
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 4:21 pm 
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Hi, all!

Since this forum has bogged down a bit, perhaps a new topic might help :?

Congruent behavior, behavior that agrees with your words, is essential in verbal self defense.

Consider the following: A person says, "Back off, man, I don't want to hurt you!" while standing with shoulders hunched, leaning away from the other person, face turned away and down, hands in an almost push away position, moving in an uncoordinated manner, vaguely waving the person off.

Compare that to the strong, shallow stance of a boxer, hands in a firm push away position (similar to the Chinese Two Hand Swing position), head up, strong eye contact and a fighting grin on the face.

Who would you believe?

Another example, non-combatant situation: One guy says "I really like you" while shaking his head "no" and frowning slightly.

Or the guy who says the same thing, makes warm and friendly eye contact and nods his head and smiles.

Who would you believe?

Being congruent in non-verbal communication, matching your body language to your message, is something that psychologists and actors have understood for some time. It may be time for MA's to get with that concept and work with it.

If you see someone in your dojo communicating incongruently, mention it to them, kindly, and ask them what they are really feeling - or, better yet, teach the class about congruent communication.

I may be able to dig up a few sources, but anyone who has any off the top of their heads would be most welcome to help! 8)

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
http://www.leedarrow.com


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 5:17 pm 
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It's bigger than that, Lee. I firmly believe that congruency between words and actions is the only measure of integrity.

As to VSD, incongruity can be a great tool. Your boxer with the grin saying "I don't want to hurt you." will get someone to back off more effectively than the same words coming from someone who really doesn't want to fight, because the one who doesn't want to fight may come off as a victim.

Rory


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 Post subject: Good Topic
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 11:39 am 
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Location: Brockton, MA, USA
Hello Lee,
ALthough this forum is almost as vacant as the palaces in Iraq, I do occasioanlly look to see if there anyone who is still interested in VSD.

I have begun an extensive campaign to bring, not only VSD and Conflict Awareness which we elaborate on frequently, a topic that is catching on in a lot of karate schools nation wide. SAFETY AWARENESS.

The main reason we teach children in the first place is to keep them safe from any harm. In our karate advertisements we stress that "We do NOT teach your child how to fight, We teach them how to avoid fights." This is a different concept then what was taught to me when I began my training in 1980.

Children learn that VSD must be used first in social situations with pears, couple that with the body movements we teach, and you have congruent safety. We explore many postures and expressions. Sarcasim is not only an adult trait. Many children learn this and can recognize this subconciously.

However, When children are faced down by a bully I think that what Rory said would work better. The defender is telling (VSD) the bully that he is not interested in fighting, although he is ready if he is going to be attacked. The bully hears the message, not sarcasim, and sees the body language backing up the message. We teach the children tonot look down or away, the glancing away body language conveys doubt and this will be picked up by the bully. Also the defender will not see the sucker punch coming.

Great topic. I hope others feel like discussing it.

Do any other karate school owners teach this to their juniors or adults?

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Len


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 12:29 pm 
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Hi Len. Been considering starting a VSD post concerning a recent experience. Maybe while shopping for cold cuts and pasta.

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 Post subject: Do IT
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 5:01 pm 
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Please do Allen.

None of us are exempt from Verbal Confrontation.

Even those of us who know better. :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 5:59 pm 
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It's how the verbal confrontation is handled that's important, Lenny.

Sometimes those things start up automatically like a dry tinder forest being ignited by a carelessly, haphazardly and thoughtlessly tossed lit match. When that happens can the forest put out its own fire? If so then its internal mechanism can be assumed to be in good worlking order.

More later. Got to go.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 6:40 pm 
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Location: Chicago, IL USA
RA Miller wrote:
It's bigger than that, Lee. I firmly believe that congruency between words and actions is the only measure of integrity.

As to VSD, incongruity can be a great tool. Your boxer with the grin saying "I don't want to hurt you." will get someone to back off more effectively than the same words coming from someone who really doesn't want to fight, because the one who doesn't want to fight may come off as a victim.

Rory


Rory-sama,

Great post! And I agree with you on the congruency of the boxer grinning at someone and saying I don't want to fight as opposed to someone giving off victim vibes saying the same thing.

It's a matter of what will work in each situation, how to recognize what will work and applying it - like any other aspect of the MA.

What I was getting at was that the words must match the body language, both in text and in what actors call subtext. Subtext is what you refer to in the boxer example - the subtext is - "but I will if I have to - and you won't like it a bit."

Thanks for helping keep this one alive.

Anyone have any real world experiences?

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
http://www.leedarrow.com


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 Post subject: Re: Good Topic
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 6:43 pm 
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LenTesta wrote:
Hello Lee,
ALthough this forum is almost as vacant as the palaces in Iraq, I do occasioanlly look to see if there anyone who is still interested in VSD.

I have begun an extensive campaign to bring, not only VSD and Conflict Awareness which we elaborate on frequently, a topic that is catching on in a lot of karate schools nation wide. SAFETY AWARENESS.

The main reason we teach children in the first place is to keep them safe from any harm. In our karate advertisements we stress that "We do NOT teach your child how to fight, We teach them how to avoid fights." This is a different concept then what was taught to me when I began my training in 1980.

Children learn that VSD must be used first in social situations with pears, couple that with the body movements we teach, and you have congruent safety. We explore many postures and expressions. Sarcasim is not only an adult trait. Many children learn this and can recognize this subconciously.

However, When children are faced down by a bully I think that what Rory said would work better. The defender is telling (VSD) the bully that he is not interested in fighting, although he is ready if he is going to be attacked. The bully hears the message, not sarcasim, and sees the body language backing up the message. We teach the children tonot look down or away, the glancing away body language conveys doubt and this will be picked up by the bully. Also the defender will not see the sucker punch coming.

Great topic. I hope others feel like discussing it.

Do any other karate school owners teach this to their juniors or adults?


Len Testa-Sensei,

I certainly hope so. If not, developing a program of "How to Avoid Fights - Keeping Yourself and Loved Ones Safe" would be a really good idea for any dojo, IMPO.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
http://www.leedarrow.com


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 5:42 am 
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Location: Tallahassee, FL
Greetings Everybody,

Looking for something to add to this topic....

I used to have a friend for whom congruence was a real issue. It goes toward how congruence and culture may be intertwined...She was brought to this country from Egypt when she was about 8 years old, fluent in several languages, but... She used to shake her head from side to side (as if gesturing, "NO") when answering a question in the affirmative andshe shook her head up[ and down when responding in the negative.

I used to find it Extremely annoying.......And now I know it is potentially dangerous, too........I just have to wonder what other similar cross-cultural incongruities might exist.....

At

ATH

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:26 pm 
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Akil Todd Harvey wrote:
Greetings Everybody,

Looking for something to add to this topic....

I used to have a friend for whom congruence was a real issue. It goes toward how congruence and culture may be intertwined...She was brought to this country from Egypt when she was about 8 years old, fluent in several languages, but... She used to shake her head from side to side (as if gesturing, "NO") when answering a question in the affirmative andshe shook her head up[ and down when responding in the negative.

I used to find it Extremely annoying.......And now I know it is potentially dangerous, too........I just have to wonder what other similar cross-cultural incongruities might exist.....

At

ATH


Todd Harvey-sama,

Excellent perception on the cultural differences.

In fact, many children have trouble with the Yes, I understand, No, I understand useage in English.

In many languages the proper useage is the no, I understand or no I agree with you form and tthe yes, I disagree when asked if they agree.

Confusing? Yep! Imagine what it's like to try and learn it from a culture where the forms above are the norm.

No wonder many countries view the English language as more of a disease than a logical language!

Now mix in body language and it gets even more confusing.

In fact, my head hurts just going through writing this thing so far. So, it's off to the wilds of the North Side of Chicago for me!

More later!

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
http://www.leedarrow.com


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