Ground Fighting

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jorvik

Post by jorvik »

just to add something from a different time and culture ( although, I think relevant to the military)...in the 70's in the UK we had opposing camps in fashion and lifestyle.....rather hard to explain, it's a cultural thing, but we had Skinheads and troggs the troggs, goths whatever were people with long hair, afghan coats, petunia oil, etc.....the Skinheads were different they had crew cuts wore baggy, bleached jeans, Ben sherman shirts, braces to hold up their jeans....and Doc Martin " Bovver" boots.....preferably in oxblood, although black was acceptable, and for the truly nasty steel toecaps or " Steeleys" as they were known...........and they liked to fight
usually on the " football terraces" with rival supporters, but generally anywhere. The fights were usually gangfights, running battles...the primary weapon was the head, i.e. heabutts...then when they were down you sent in the boot, and all your friends did as well :lol: .......so, there is a whole load of Brits, of my generation who learned ( sometimes, the hard way)....that when sh*t happens the last place to be is the floor, and we learned to fight like demons to avoid that........one good kicking is all you needed :roll:....to be educated in the wisdom of this 8)
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

What ever percentage you come up with, I sure wish readers of this thread would concentrate that much of the whole of their training on their ground-work!
I got this grappling video from this famous guy named Joe Somebodyorother.. ;)

Been teaching my guys ukemi for more than 2 decades, Joe. I require a display of ukemi skills on the very first belt test - on a wooden floor. I have the memory of a separated shoulder and semi-permanently bruised shoulder blades and pelvic bones from the years I learned aikido on a rug over a concrete floor. That's the way my instructor (a former green beret) taught it to me. But that was with a special group of crazies that wouldn't sue every time a bone was broken. Back when I had the mats, I taught aikido to my Uechika once a week.

There still seems to be a definition problem on what ground fighting is. :(

But it's all good to me. Like I always say, I see lots of the chokes, bars, cuts, etc. of JJ and FMA in my Uechi kata. That makes it easier for me to keep it all together in my head. In the book of Bill Glasheen, I believe the future Uechi dojos should eschew the traditional wooden floors and go for surfaces where we aren't afraid to roll around on the ground a little now and then. Even outside on the grass is better than the traditional wooden-floored dojo. We Uechika are more likely to open our horizons and explore areas of our kata that the Okinawans left untouched.

- Bill
Ted Dinwiddie
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Post by Ted Dinwiddie »

The reading I have done over the years about the history of martial arts on Okinawa has led me to the belief that Te/Ti (the indiginous art of the Ryu Kyus, pre Kara) was grappling, for the most part. The Chinese influence seems to have been characterized by the introduction of more sophisticated striking techniques. The Japanese empty hand influence was also heavily grappling oriented because that was what one would need when weapons were lost and/or distance was closed. Much as many Okinawans avoided their native language (Hogen) as they interacted with the world, they also left out the native parts of their Karate as they began to spread it outward to the world.

I think Joe and Bill are correct in the ways we should emphasize our training time. Taking or sending someone to the ground, being taken or sent to the ground, and having to continue the fight on the ground are real possibilities. If we are training to be complete as fighters we must be training in these areas.

The Judo sensei I have done some work with recently is cross trained (shodan) in a karate style also. He can roll away to a standing position or spring back quite explosively right into your face after being sent to the ground. Taking him to the ground is an exercise in reversal of roles. Going down does not mean staying down.

I think groundwork is a large body of material encompassing anything involving loss of one's vertical standing position. Maintaining control of one's self, much less the oppononent, is very different and must be learned and practiced.
ted

"There's only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - P.J. O'Rourke
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

I think groundwork is a large body of material encompassing anything involving loss of one's vertical standing position. Maintaining control of one's self, much less the oppononent, is very different and must be learned and practiced.
This seems to encompass many ideas espoused by Rory.

BTW, Ted, did you ever meet a judoka by the name of Harry Cook? He's the gentleman that first introduced ukemi to my Uechi dojo back about 20 years ago. Used to teach judo at U.Va. He was a rather portly gentleman that reminded me of the elephants dancing in Fantasia when he did his rolls and falls. It's amazing to see that much mass in perfect control.

I'm with you about maintaining control of one's self, Ted. It's a very important concept. After having done some iaido (courtesey of Bob Campbell), I got a great appreciation for control of center from various seated and kneeling positions. It transitions quite well to the standing stances, and all the principles of centering apply. There's even some wonderful work you can do on "stepping" and "turning" from these kneeling positions. It's a great extension of what we learn in the simple introductory kata. Aikido spends a good deal of time teaching people to fight from these positions, as if the person was standing.

- Bill
Ted Dinwiddie
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Post by Ted Dinwiddie »

I have not met Mr. Cook, but I have heard the name. The gentleman I have been working with is Ed Stockwell.
ted

"There's only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - P.J. O'Rourke
Pomfret, Joe
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Post by Pomfret, Joe »

I agree with you Bill, there is still a problem associated with the definition of groundfighting.

But I think the problem lies not in what it is, but when it should happen. Because a person has decided to entertain grappling as an extension of their personal fighting style doesn't mean that that person is looking to "go to the ground" right off of the bat in a fight.

Many people don't know this, because many on these forums are upstanding ctizens and avoid situations that may put them in a position to fight another person, but in the chaotic heat of battle the fight goes to the clinch and the clinch goes to the ground. Or, the fight simply goes to the ground when one of the combatants falls or is knocked down.

If The U.S. Marines see fit to include ground fighting as 25% of their curriculum, I feel that we would be remiss to have grappling represent 0% of our training.

And, if there in a martial arts teacher reading this, and if you are not teaching some type of basic grappling as part of your school,s curriculum...SIGH!!! All the grappling you need is not covored in the Dan kumite takedown or the seisan bunkai takedown defense :wink:
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